I have a feeling that the afterlife doesn't exist

[Link]

The fact is, if fear is the reason you are moral. You're not moral.

Saying one is only doing something because they fear reprisal is illogical.

If your only reasoning for not doing something is "I might get caught" or "some deity will punish me", then you aren't a moral person to begin with.

Fear should be the reason we avoid evil. If you were walking a bridge in the air, and you can fall off without railings, you would not want to fall off. However goodness as in non-obligatory actions, it's hard to motivate that purely on fear. That requires love and hope, as the fuel. Hope for more reward. We can't benefit God, so acting for God means, we act so he can reward us with his relationship and vision of him and traveling to him.

Fearing God if God is open and in the clear has no merit. This is why in day of judgment, fear of God and faith in him doesn't benefit. However fear of God while God is unseen is noble and it's as noble as it gets. Because we can easily just deny and turn away from the being to do away with the fear. But have patience on the fear is honorable and noble.

There is a drink in paradise - Quran says this is what competition should be about by those who compete. But what do we compete for if not God and next world? Vain things like wealth, prestige, ranks, fame, time for pleasure, and ego.

 

[firedragon]

The fact is, if fear is the reason you are moral. You're not moral.

That's again an illogical statement. Again, just because you state a reason does not mean you are immoral. You could be moral by nature and yet state a reason as well. You are making conjecture about a person. You are in fact acting God.

 

[The Hammer]

That's again an illogical statement. Again, just because you state a reason does not mean you are immoral. You could be moral by nature and yet state a reason as well. You are making conjecture about a person. You are in fact acting God.

Only in your opinion.

 

[The Hammer]

Fear should be the reason we avoid evil.

I disagree. But you enjoy your fear.

 

[firedragon]

Only in your opinion.

Not really. It's just logical.

Just because I say I will not steal because I might end up in jail does not mean I am immoral by nature. That's you thinking you are God who knows someone's nature.

Are you God?

 

[The Hammer]

Just because I say I will not steal because I might end up in jail does not mean I am immoral by nature.

Calling me a God or godlike isn't an insult. So thanks for the compliment.


My point was and still is thus: It does if the only thing stopping you from stealing is that singular fear. That is ethically dubious.

Repeating it: If you are ONLY operating based on the fear of consequences. If the consequences go away, and you WOULD steal in that situation. Then yes, it's not a logical morality.

 

[YoursTrue]

To me life would be too evil without God. Evil people get away with crimes and oppression while oppressed suffer with no compensation. And more people meaning is an illusion without God. There is only pleasure and worldly ranks without God. Morality has no ranks or stages and even if it did, if it ends at death, it's not worth it.

The intention behind actions to me is way to evil, ugly, and monstruous without God, so I would not be able to live like that. Empathy can exist, but for what type of human? For pleasures and enjoyment only of a temporary type, not for a meaningful foreverness type value.

We can love humans, but without God, what is a human? No judgment do deeds, no value of ranks unseen morality wise, ethics are useful only for worldly goals, and there is no proximity to God, the chosen ones, the spiritual world is a delusion, and everything we seek in that regard would be vain.

I can't live like that.

It's amazing to me how awful some crimes are. Even before I believed in God I thought it was beyond reason why anyone would kill others and then kill themselves. I studied psychology and sociology to an extent, trying to figure answers. (But didn't find any good answers...except maybe some people were nuts.)
I was not 'perfect' before I came to understand God's Word, the Bible. I was far from perfection, leaning on my own sense of right and wrong -- and although I've changed, I know I'm still NOT perfect. I look forward to doing better, both now and in the resurrection.

 

[firedragon]

My point was and still is thus: It does if the only thing stopping you from stealing is that singular fear.

How do you know that unless you are God who could read someone's nature?

Do you think you are God?

 

[The Hammer]

How do you know that unless you are God who could read someone's nature?

You're missing my point because fear is the entire basis of your theology. (Many monotheist tout this at least, please correct me if I'm wrong)

Just keep doing what you do. It's fine.

Do you think you are God?

If you keep asking if I am I might

 

[firedragon]

You're missing my point because fear is the entire basis of your theology.

Can you prove that with quali/quanti research?

 

[The Hammer]

Can you prove that with quali/quanti research?

*Sigh*

Have a good day.

I'm not playing games with you.

 

[Link]

I disagree. But you enjoy your fear.

If we don't act on fear, we don't believe in the nature of the straight bridge and take lightly the issue of falling off of it and the punishment that arises if we don't find a way back to the path.

There's more to it. Fear of God takes belief that goodness is not gained in a vacuum and avoiding evil doesn't just occur in a vacuum. Rather barriers of light exist that protect us from going to evils. Sins break these barriers and challenge the essence of light of God.

If our sins engulf us and destroy the light - it maybe that we go to the point of no return. Our fate becomes sealed. So delaying repentance and continuing in evil is risking damnation and a point of no return.

There is still from point of view of Satan and his forces existing, a must to build weapons of light and truth. Fear of God is guard, it's a shield.

When we become playful and bold and don't believe in the unseen nature of accounting nor the bridge nor the balance of weighting our deeds, then risk damnation forever and risking our fate in that it's becomes impossible for anyone to guide us.

Not acting on fear is not noble. Even Angels they glorify God from fear, not that they don't love him and hope in his grace, but that the fear is a greater motivation to glorify God since not doing so would mean they would be damned, destroyed, and punished in hell.

 

[The Hammer]

If we don't act on fear, we don't believe in the nature of the straight bridge and take lightly the issue of falling off of it and the punishment that arises if we don't find a way back to the path.

There's more to it. Fear of God takes belief that goodness is not gained in a vacuum and avoiding evil doesn't just occur in a vacuum. Rather barriers of light exist that protect us from going to evils. Sins break these barriers and challenge the essence of light of God.

If our sins engulf us and destroy the light - it maybe that we go to the point of no return. Our fate becomes sealed. So delaying repentance and continuing in evil is risking damnation and a point of no return.

There is still from point of view of Satan and his forces existing, a must to build weapons of light and truth. Fear of God is guard, it's a shield.

When we become playful and bold and don't believe in the unseen nature of accounting nor the bridge nor the balance of weighting our deeds, then risk damnation forever and risking our fate in that it's becomes impossible for anyone to guide us.

In you opinion yes. Not in my opinion or experience.

 

[YoursTrue]

Not really. It's just logical.

Just because I say I will not steal because I might end up in jail does not mean I am immoral by nature. That's you thinking you are God who knows someone's nature.

Are you God?

Reminding me of an interesting scripture to note -- Romans 2:14 - "For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves." By law, I am sure the apostle Paul meant the Law Covenant that the Jewish nation was supposed to be following...So "people of the nations" had it within their heart, to an extent, to think that stealing was wrong, adultery was wrong, murder was wrong, things like that.

 

[Link]

In you opinion yes. Not in my opinion or experience.

Fear of God can be enjoyable but only from perspective of what is gained from it in terms of light. Otherwise, no one enjoys fearing. That's another reason why it's noble. It's because it takes a humble heart and remember Mariam (a) means bitter in Hebrew. Sometimes the honorable path is not about it being sweet, but bitter. She is of the highest souls due her bitter nature. Imam Ali (a) talks about how all sour people will be held accounted for it except people sour for sake the Quran. The people sour for Quran and sour of out the Quran, that is noble.

 

[firedragon]

*Sigh*

Have a good day.

I'm not playing games with you.

You are just making conjecture after conjecture mate. That's the reason you have respond this way.

Provide evidence to your claims or just understand that you are just having absolutely blind faith in what you say. No research findings, no evidence, just blind faith. It's much worse than any religious zealot. Your faith is absolutely in the dark in comparison.

Thats the reason you have to respond with some irrelevant comment.

Or, provide evidence to your claim.

 

[YoursTrue]

Fear of God can be enjoyable but only from perspective of what is gained from it in terms of light. Otherwise, no one enjoys fearing. That's another reason why it's noble. It's because it takes a humble heart and remember Mariam (a) means bitter in Hebrew. Sometimes the honorable path is not about it being sweet, but bitter. She is of the highest souls due her bitter nature. Imam Ali (a) talks about how all sour people will be held accounted for it except people sour for sake the Quran. The people sour for Quran and sour of out the Quran, that is noble.

Sometimes when I think of fear of God I think how very careful I would be in front of a high official. Maybe even walking carefully so as not to disturb him. But appreciating his authority.

 

[YoursTrue]

Fear of God can be enjoyable but only from perspective of what is gained from it in terms of light. Otherwise, no one enjoys fearing. That's another reason why it's noble. It's because it takes a humble heart and remember Mariam (a) means bitter in Hebrew. Sometimes the honorable path is not about it being sweet, but bitter. She is of the highest souls due her bitter nature. Imam Ali (a) talks about how all sour people will be held accounted for it except people sour for sake the Quran. The people sour for Quran and sour of out the Quran, that is noble.

ok, I'm going to work on being sweet. (I don't think I can do it, but maybe I can... )

 

[Link]

ok, I'm going to work on being sweet. (I don't think I can do it, but maybe I can... )

I mean, you get the gist. Having a bitter nature is not a bad thing, if we do it for sake of God.

 

[Link]

There is also the issue that Mariam (a), Prophets (a) and chosen ladies (a) and Imams (a) don't risk hell. They are guaranteed the path and God knows what is before them and after them in that regard. So their fear is regards to the people. Their fear is purely empathetic - they want to save souls, guard believers, and prepare people for God's promises and their waiting is that of a person trying to prepare people for best results possible knowing the worst possibilities are possibilities warned about as well.

Their grief is not for personal gain they are guaranteed paradise and highest ranks, their grief and fear is for our sake.

From an empathetic stance, hell is their greatest concern. We been commanded to take care of our souls before worrying about others. Commanding ourselves to good and refraining from evil before we command others to good and refrain them from evil. If we have mercy and compassion for ourselves, naturally, we would fear hell.