I have some deep question about God, help!

[BSM1]

oh no....be afraid
be very afraid

Now you're just braggin'...

 

[Thief]

Now you're just braggin'...

well....actually....

to stand in the Presence.....

and not feel afraid?

and the throne room scene from the Wizard of Oz pops into mind

shaky in the knees?

oh yeah

 

[Ponder This]

If God is all-loving, why is there a hell

If God is 'All-Loving', then doesn't that mean He Loves Hell too?
Think about it. If I say, "I Love everyone!" and then someone goes around torturing people, then what is the 'loving' thing to do? People confuse 'All-Loving' with 'not-caring what people do'. That's false. If you Love people, then you do care about what they do!

why do people constantly die needlessly and innocently?
(E.G. People dying of horrific things like being merely beaten to death by someone they never even knew, or suddenly contracting illness? Or dying of starvation, because they're so poor and couldn't get help? There are worse innocent deaths that happen all the time, but I'd rather not make this too graphic. You get the picture.)

I would avoid stating 'needless' because you don't see a need or stating 'innocent' because you do not see a sin. But there is no 'good' answer to your question except, "I am the Lord", which is to say that Faith in a Higher Power is the only way to move forward in the the face of that which escapes the Rational Mind.

Also, why is there a hell?

Because some people lose the spiritual struggle for their own souls. They fall into despair or hate or other, which is to say they become self-indulgent in lower forms of thinking - forms of thinking which lead to more suffering. Until they release these attachments, they cannot Ascend.

The punishment of hells pain, torture and eternal fire is so sickening to think of. And thinking of the people who will go there, simply because they never knew God, or just happened to get caught up in something wrong, for a time and died. Eternal pain is the worst thing to experience. How is this love?

People certainly do like to describe Heaven and Hell! If we think a bit longer about this, I'm sure we can create some new ways in which people can suffer (or be rewarded)! We might even enjoy doing this!

The bible states that his love is unconditional, but this seems to be a very conditional situation, to me. I'm confused.

The rain falls everywhere. If you think you are missing out, then it might be because you aren't stepping outside and embracing it. People don't have to open the gifts they are given. They may choose to reject. Unconditional Love does not mean: You Must Love Me No Matter What. It means: My Love is Here, the Choice is Yours.

If God is perfect and omnipotent, why does this all even exist? Can't he just wipe it all out, and destroy satan?

Why stop there? Why not "Win D&D" while you're at it? Being perfect isn't about winning. You can't defeat the 'adversary' by defeating him.

He is perfect, yet a mistake was made when satan was allowed to come in and interfere in the garden of eden, was it not? Should he not have interfered, then?
Also, being all-knowing, should he not have seen this all coming and prevented it?

Mistakes were made... deal with it.
Also...
Allegory:

a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.​

Why would he chose to let us live in a world like this?

What were the other 'choices' (besides Garden of Eden)? Candyland? Fantasia? I'm sure you can imagine all sorts of worlds, but why should any of them be considered a legitimate option? Rather, doesn't the Allegory tell us that our choices have consequences in terms of the world we live in?

Also, how is having a choice between God, a perfect heaven of fluffy clouds vs. Eternal suffering and burning free will? It seems like a very forced choice to me, because who in their right mind would choose the latter?

Being in your right mind does not mean you will make good decisions. I fail to see how being in your right mind ensures that all your choices are the best instead of the worst. Being in your right mind does not mean that you necessarily believe in the existence of Heaven and Hell even when it is described for you in great detail. In fact, the describing of it in such detail might even make it more unbelievable!

I know the bible says in the end times God will do his final justice once and for all and make things right. However, that will still involve a lot of people going to hell, and I don't understand why he must let us suffer this way, until then.

End Times:

the period leading up to Judgment Day​

So... if Judgement Day is getting closer... then it means we are living in the end times? When does 'End Times' begin? When does 'End Times' end? Doesn't make much sense does it? It could be now; it could be we are deep into it; it could be somewhere off in the future.
However...
Allegory:

a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.​

The End Times don't have a set date to begin and if someone tells you they know the time when the End Times start, it's a sure sign they didn't grasp that this is an Allegory. They think it's literal, which is why they are wasting their time trying to figure out when it begins, instead of worrying about the spiritual condition of their souls.

So your statement that we are "suffering this way, until then" doesn't actually make any sense. The End Times don't have a set moment to 'commence'. We are in the End Times! All the time! Even when we are not!

 

[Trailblazer]

”if we look only at the original message before man changed it & corrupted it”- how do you have access to original, written on papyrus documents that the church doesn’t have access to? How did you get ahold of those? What language are they in?

That is a good point. You cannot ever get the originals of the Bible so nobody can really know what they said. But even if we assume that the transcriptions are fairly accurate, there are so many translations so there is no way to know which one is closest to the original meaning.

Then of course we know that Jesus did not write His own scriptures; other people recorded what He purportedly said decades later and we do not even know who all of the writers were. There is no way to know how accurate the NT is or if Jesus really said what was recorded. The same applies to words attributed to Moses. We have no original scriptures written by Moses.

The only religion that has original writings written by the Prophet Founder is the Baha'i Faith.
Exhibition of Baha’u’llah’s Writings Opens at British Museum

Baha'u'llah either wrote His scriptures in His Own Pen or He dictated them to His secretary, after which time he reviewed what was written and stamped them with His official seal. The original scriptures are stored in a vault in Haifa Israel and they are protected by those who work in the Baha'i research department. Only a small percentage of the 15,000 Tablets he wrote have thus far been translated into English because that had to be done very carefully and painstakingly so as not to lose the meaning of the Persian and Arabic. There is only one official translation, not hundreds. Those who know Persian and Arabic can read the original words as they were penned because they have been photocopied and placed online and in libraries across the Middle East.

 

[Trailblazer]

?uh... Which messengers? Which religions? Which god? What in the world are you talking about?

This is what I am talking about: Progressive Revelation: the Primary Baha’i Principle

 

[Sanzbir]

Might as well give it a shot...

If God is all-loving, why is there a hell, and why do people constantly die needlessly and innocently?
(E.G. People dying of horrific things like being merely beaten to death by someone they never even knew, or suddenly contracting illness? Or dying of starvation, because they're so poor and couldn't get help? There are worse innocent deaths that happen all the time, but I'd rather not make this too graphic. You get the picture.)

Why do you think death is a bad thing??

Also, why is there a hell? The punishment of hells pain, torture and eternal fire is so sickening to think of. And thinking of the people who will go there, simply because they never knew God, or just happened to get caught up in something wrong, for a time and died.

My Faith's notion of Hell is vastly different then yours, so I cannot answer that.

Eternal pain is the worst thing to experience.

I disagree there. Pain is manageable, and I can think of far worse things from my own subjective perspective.

If God is perfect and omnipotent, why does this all even exist?

Why do you think we are not perfect??

Can't he just wipe it all out, and destroy satan?

Why do you think Satan is not perfect??

Geez, that feels like a controversial statement. I don't even think the satanist larpers usually argue for Satan's perfection.

He is perfect, yet a mistake was made when satan was allowed to come in and interfere in the garden of eden, was it not?

Why do you think that is a mistake??

Should he not have interfered, then?

Well if you think that God is perfect and yet the world is not, then I can see why you would think interference should have been a thing. I'd continue to wonder why you think the world isn't fine as is, though.

Also, being all-knowing, should he not have seen this all coming and prevented it?

Only if He had reason to.

Why would he chose to let us live in a world like this?

Again, what do you think is wrong about this world??

Also, how is having a choice between God, a perfect heaven of fluffy clouds vs. Eternal suffering and burning free will?

Again my Faith's notions of Hell and Heaven are quite different, so I've no answer you are likely to accept.

It seems like a very forced choice to me, because who in their right mind would choose the latter?

Seems strange to you or I, but there are plenty out there who choose to suffer every day out of their own free volition.

 

[Trailblazer]

Seems strange to you or I, but there are plenty out there who choose to suffer every day out of their own free volition.

With all due respect, I do not think that most people suffer because they choose to. There might be a few people who are masochistic but most people suffer because this world is a storehouse of suffering, more for some people than for other people. Some suffering is within our control and other suffering is not.

“O thou seeker of the Kingdom! Thy letter was received. Thou hast written of the severe calamity that hath befallen thee—the death of thy respected husband. That honourable man hath been so subjected to the stress and strain of this world that his greatest wish was for deliverance from it. Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world. The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions. Thus it is seen that some, under extreme pressure of anguish, have committed suicide.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 200​

So the question is, why does God allow some people to suffer so much and others hardly at all. Of course, I know there are explanations in our religion, but I find that they do not completely cut the mustard. Suffice to say, there are mysteries we cannot understand in this life but they will be revealed in the life to come, to some people. There is no reason to think that all people will become aware in the next life although they will know more than they know in this life.

 

[1213]

If God is all-loving, why is there a hell, and why do people constantly die needlessly and innocently?

Needlessly and innocently? How do you know that?

I think it would be good to understand in this, in Biblical point of view this “life” is the first death. People were expelled to this, because they wanted to know good and evil and rejected God. And because this is actually death, it would not be nice if this death would continue forever. This is like short lesson about good and evil and it is not meant to last forever.

I think this could be compared to the Matrix in that movie. We are in this reality to experience things that don’t exist in God’s presence. Body is only like a vessel for soul to experience this. Nothing of this world can destroy soul, which is the important thing. And those who are or become righteous, can after this go back to life with God.


These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

Also, why is there a hell?

As the Bible tells, hell is a place where soul and body are destroyed. I think it is, because it would not be good to allow unrighteous to live forever. If unrighteous would live forever, they would make life eternal suffering for all.

Also, unrighteous people don’t want to be with God, they love more evil than good. In hell they can be separated from God as they wish.

The bible states that his love is unconditional, but this seems to be a very conditional situation, to me. I'm confused.

Love is unconditional, but it doesn’t mean God is not just and good and righteous. Love means God doesn’t do anything evil or bad. And bad would be to allow evil to continue eternally. Giving right judgment is not in contradiction with love. Obviously, it is sad, if one has to judge people, but if one would not do that, then it would be even less loving. It would be same as punishing good and rewarding evil.

If God is perfect and omnipotent, why does this all even exist? Can't he just wipe it all out, and destroy satan?

I think it happens when this lesson is over. Now is not yet time to end this lesson. There is still people who need the lesson.

He is perfect, yet a mistake was made when satan was allowed to come in and interfere in the garden of eden, was it not? Should he not have interfered, then?

I think it was not a mistake. Satan can’t destroy soul, that is why he is not a problem. Problem is that people love more evil than good.

Why would he chose to let us live in a world like this?

I think the reason is that people wanted this lesson and God allowed it.

Also, how is having a choice between God, a perfect heaven of fluffy clouds vs. Eternal suffering and burning free will? It seems like a very forced choice to me, because who in their right mind would choose the latter?

Probably the choice is really in this:

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21

I think it is not about choosing hell or heaven.

 

[Neuropteron]

Hello,

If God is all-loving, why is there a hell, and why do people constantly die needlessly and innocently?

Thank you.

Hi,
Because the Greek teaching of the immortality of the human soul infiltrated Jewish religious thinking in later centuries this lead to the unscriptural concept of eternal punishment to be adopted by Christianity. The Bible record however shows that (Sheol) or hell refers simply to mankind's common grave as a place where there is no consciousness.(Ec 9:4-6,10) and where the dead will await the promised future resurrection to life.
As an example this is why Job, longing to be relieved of his suffering, prayed that he might go to hell (Sheol) and later be remembered by God (Jehovah) and be called out from it.(Job 14:12).
The reason we die is a large subject but is simply explained in Roman 5:12: "that is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned.
However the promise is that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous,"Acts 24:15.

 

[Trailblazer]

I still don't see how it's self-centred. Perhaps you misunderstand, I don't want evidence for any god(s), I'm just not prepared to accept that any gods exist until and unless I have some reasons to do so.

Are you saying you could care less (don’t want) but if evidence just popped up you would believe in God?

“God ideas are not God; they are just ideas about God. There is only One True God, not a bunch of different gods...”
So you claim - how do you know?

I know because it was revealed by Baha’u’llah.

I see no revelation. I see lots and lots of different religions, cults, and sects, and none them stand out as at all believable.

I can understand why they wouldn’t... If you are looking at all of them you are bound to get confused. How would you know which one is the one?

Same could be said of any other superstition, conspiracy theory, myth, or legend. Humans make stuff up.

Not of there was something religions have accomplished that stands out from those others that cannot be explained by humans alone. RELIGION AND CIVILIZATION

They all seem "man-made" to me...

That could be because you do not believe in God.
Things are not always as they seem.

I didn't say it did. However, if there is or are any real god(s), then it or they are not doing a good job of communication if its or their message doesn't stand out from all the false ones.

The Real God is not trying to stand out. He likes to make it a little difficult to recognize His Messenger. That way, only those who made a real effort will recognize Him..

So, if you cherry-pick the messages, they don't contradict each other - wow!

No, I did not say that. I said they are different but not contradictory.

I don't have a difficult time at all coming up with other explanations: they got it wrong is the first and most obvious one.

That is what I was saying above. Those who make assumptions before really looking at all the evidence will not recognize the Messenger of God. What seems most obvious is not always the right answer.

 

[ratiocinator]

Are you saying you could care less (don’t want) but if evidence just popped up you would believe in God?

I mean that I see lots of squabbling faiths and none of them seem to have the hint of any objective evidence for them. I suspect I've spent more time than most looking at them and the various arguments for god(s) but they all seem hopeless from the start.

I know because it was revealed by Baha’u’llah.

How did you know it was true?

I can understand why they wouldn’t... If you are looking at all of them you are bound to get confused. How would you know which one is the one?

More to the point, how would you know any of them is?

Not of there was something religions have accomplished that stands out from those others that cannot be explained by humans alone. RELIGION AND CIVILIZATION

I could point to all the war, conflict, persecution, and suffering that have been caused in the name of religions too - all of which could easily have been prevented by a real god with a clear message.

That could be because you do not believe in God.
Things are not always as they seem.

So now I have to believe in a god before I get any evidence?

The Real God is not trying to stand out. He likes to make it a little difficult to recognize His Messenger. That way, only those who made a real effort will recognize Him..

So what is the point to this needless cruelty? Why does this god of yours stand by while people literally kill each other because they disagree about the true message - not to mention all the lesser conflict, prejudice, and persecution?

Why the silly and cruel game of hide-and-seek?

No, I did not say that. I said they are different but not contradictory.

But the various religions are contradictory.

 

[Remté]

I could point to all the war, conflict, persecution, and suffering that have been caused in the name of religions too - all of which could easily have been prevented by a real god with a clear message.

You blame the failing of people on God?

 

[ratiocinator]

You blame the failing of people on God?

If there is a real god and, as @Trailblazer suggested, it has basically hidden its message so as not to stand out from the false messages, and it then stands by while people persecute, fight, and kill each other because its message isn't clear and lots of people have got it wrong, then yes, I would blame that god.

In fact, more generally, omnipotent and omniscient means omni-responsible as far as I can see....

 

[Remté]

If there is a real god and, as @Trailblazer suggested, it has basically hidden its message so as not to stand out from the false messages, and it then stands by while people persecute, fight, and kill each other because its message isn't clear and lots of people have got it wrong, then yes, I would blame that god.

In fact, more generally, omnipotent and omniscient means omni-responsible as far as I can see....

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't stand out. You are blind, that is all.

 

[ratiocinator]

ust because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't stand out. You are blind, that is all.

Along with most people in the world, it would seem.

No one religion has a majority of the world's population. A quick google suggests that Christianity has the most on 33% and it's not as if all Christians believe the same thing.

If there is a real god, why the silly and cruel game of hide-and-seek?

 

[Remté]

Along with most people in the world, it would seem.

No one religion has a majority of the world's population. A quick google suggests that Christianity has the most on 33% and it's not as if all Christians believe the same thing.

If there is a real god, why the silly and cruel game of hide-and-seek?

You seem to think yourself equal with God.

 

[ratiocinator]

You seem to think yourself equal with God.

I don't know why you think that and you didn't actually address my point.

If there is a god, I can only use the human brain it has equipped me with to consider the possibilities, as can everybody else. If a god exists, its message obviously isn't clear to the majority of humans, so what do you think is the reason for that?

 

[Remté]

I don't know why you think that and you didn't actually address my point.

If there is a god, I can only use the human brain it has equipped me with to consider the possibilities, as can everybody else. If a god exists, its message obviously isn't clear to the majority of humans, so what do you think is the reason for that?

To train your spirit to follow the right way. Doubt blinds. When one's mind is full of doubt they can't see or find anything.

 

[ratiocinator]

To train your spirit to follow the right way.

How can you know what the right way is, if it's hidden amongst the wrong ways?

Doubt blinds.

Doubt is rational. If you don't doubt, you will just follow the first religion you are presented with, won't you? No chance of finding the right way then (except by blind luck), is there?

When one's mind is full of doubt they can't see or find anything.

The success of science (in which questioning and testing every hypothesis is vital) suggests otherwise.

 

[sooda]

I agree that it is worthwhile, and important, to understand the beliefs and perspectives of those from other backgrounds and traditions. However, that was not my understanding of what the OP was seeking in her original questions.

What I am saying is that Islam and Judaism although different from each other and Christianity help ME make sense of some Christian theology. I am not so sure that we have a lock on all of it.. nor am I at all sure that Jews and Muslims have it ALL right.