I just want to sin!!!

[blü 2]

Oh yeah .. "It's not my fault sir, G-d shouldn't have made me".

I wouldn't accept that excuse, so why should G-d or anybody else?

The point is that if you're omnipotent and omniscient (and if you're omnipotent it follows you can be omniscient any time you choose) then EVERYTHING that happens in the universe only happens because YOU want it to. No one else has a say.

It's usual for this God to have created the universe. In that case God created the universe already knowing everything that would ever happen in it, and bringing it into existence with every single consequence of that kind in mind, down to the finest detail, so that everything that ever happens, happens exactly and only as God always intended.

Therefore no one can deviate in thought, word or deed ─ not even by the width of a quark ─ from what God perfectly foresaw before [he] created the universe.

The situation is otherwise if God is NOT omnipotent, but that's not the end of the story ─

─ because no one can make any decision to think, speak, or act, or to refrain from thinking, speaking or acting, independently of his or her evolved decision-making brain processes, which he or she possesses as a result of his or her particular genes.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, no, no.
You are being fooled, if you believe that.

Free-will is not affected by whether I know what you will do tomorrow.
You make your choice. If I am right, then it will be what you chose.

If you know for sure what I will do and there is no other possible outcome then what we left with is the illusion of choice.
If god knows all that will be, this means we cannot act in a way as to bring about what god doesn't know. This means we have no choice and are predestined to act as god knows it. This must be true if god knows what will happen in the future.

It is by definition that we won't do other than what G-d knows.
It is not that we cannot act in a different way .. it's that we don't want to. If we wanted to, then G-d would know that.

These means that god is not omniscient and doesn't know the future, as I can act outside of his predictions. And that's all he is making at that point, similar to a meteorologist.

 

[Trailblazer]

I wasn't sure. Some communities are more insular than others. No offence was intended.

They address internal conflict and help you work you own way to a resolution. A good therapist will not introduce their own perspective into the conversation. They will simply help you unearth the issues you are wrestling with and try to give you the tools to work them out for yourself.

I love my therapist. We come from a similar cultural demographic, but after almost a year I have no clue as to her religious affiliation, or her take on God, if any.

I have been to counselors and psychologists and psychiatrists off and on since about 1983.
Nowadays I don't see anyone for psychological problems but more just because I have anxiety and I need help with my life situation...
I got a MA in Counseling Psychology later in life but I never did much with it because I had too many things that interfered with my starting a new career.

I started seeing a counselor I really like last August but now she is changing jobs so I only have one more appointment with her. I am not sure if I will continue with counseling after that, I just live one day at a time.

I have no idea what my counselor believes but I don't like to talk about religion or God with people unless I know what they believe because I am afraid I might offend them.

 

[oldbadger]

Amen to that, I'm into a glass of Shiraz as we speak.

Where I live a glass of Shiraz is just honest goodness.
No sin in it.
Anyway, Jesus loved his meat and wine, for sure. Folks talked about it.

 

[MyM]

Well that's handy! You are not allowed to ask questions of God. Lucky for him and his 'prophets.'

That's not what I meant tbh,

“It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) the Book (this Quran). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkaam (commandments), Al-Faraa’id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudood (laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord.” And none receive admonition except men of understanding”
Aal ‘Imraan 3:7

If you have questions, sure, but if you go into every little detail, you have no right. You want to challenge your creator? Go ahead.

 

[Viker]

"I just want to sin!!!"

Well, when in Rome...........

 

[MyM]

In the conversation I was having with @MyM the choices were either Jesus is God or man.

What he is saying is, there are other choices and it doesn't have to be this or that.

 

[muhammad_isa]

These means that god is not omniscient and doesn't know the future, as I can act outside of his predictions..

It doesn't, you know.

You are doing the same thing as @Sheldon . You are making assertions on false premise.
Somehow, you have in your mind that there is a connection between the future being known and free-will when there is none.

The future is only one outcome whether known or not known.
The only reason that you will choose something is because you wanted to chose it.
Saying that you chose it because "G-d knew" is nonsense.

Look at it like this!
The future is a series of events, whether G-d knows them or not.
You say "we cannot act in any way that is outside of gods knowledge of future events", as if this means that we no longer have any free-will.

We "cannot" act in any way that is outside of God's knowledge of future events, is no different than saying we "cannot" act in any way that is outside of what the future events will actually be.

The future is a series of events. It is fixed by definition. It is just that it is either known or not known.

Example
-------------
Tomorrow, you will do either A or B. It is hidden from you. You don't know what it will be.
It must be something. There can only be one outcome. It cannot be more than one.
Are you are forced to choose what it will be? No.

You are implying that when the future is known, it is a predetermined series of events, and if it isn't known then it is no longer a predetermined series of events.
..but it actually is! That is exactly the definition of the future.
An unknown fixed series of events.

The question is, what fixes them?

 

[Clara Tea]

To me, that doesn't make it right, I think I will start looking at obituaries for Mormons, and converting them to Satanims posthumously. That'll be fine right?



All you're doing is playing on people's fears, that is pretty cowardly in my opinion.



It's your belief, not theirs, so it is wrong to force your beliefs onto others. Mother Theresa was accused of the same thing, I may not care if you get your bone shaker to do his woo woo voodoo on me after i die, but I find the idea sickeningly arrogant, nonetheless.

Latter Day Saints (they don't like to be called Mormons anymore) settled Utah July 24, 1847.

I read the autobiography of Jesse Helm McClure about her 1856 journey across the United States (crossed near Salt Lake City, she was age 10). Her little brother often wandered off to join other wagons, making his parents wonder if they left him behind. He got very sick and died. Native Americans (used to be called Indians) had a practice of burying above ground, propped up on sticks. Though they had battled the Helms, and both sides had casualties, the Native Americans didn't want the little boy to miss heaven. To prevent Native Americans from digging up the little boy's corpse, they buried him on the trail, and drove the wagons over his grave to obscure the burial site. Jesse's older sister, Louisa, had tried to nurse him back to health, before he died, but she contracted the illness, herself, and died shortly after pulling into Stockton, California, near where they settled in the Napa Valley.

The battle with the Native Americans occurred as a result of a Native American wandering into their camp and sniffing their stew, requesting some with hand signs. It was to be a fee for crossing their land. Mr. Helm picked up a burning log from their fire pit, hit the Native American over the head, and chased him off. The ensuing gun/arrow battle resulted in losing both wagon masters, and a lot of Native Americans (including the chief).

The Native Americans also attacked the next wagon train, wiping out all. The doctor in the wagon train behind that asked to be paid for his services to the Helm train, but Mr. Helm refused to pay a penny. A devout Christian, he didn't spend any money that didn't have to, even if the incident was entirely his fault. It's much like the Catholic church declaring bankruptcy to evade court orders to compensate their little boy victims of rape at the hands of priests.

People wonder why Native Americans are bummed out over Christian Whites invading their land.

The Kestersons had traveled with the Helms, settling in what became a bird sanctuary. The oldest settlers had their pick of prime farm land. Farm runoff contained selenium, which made bird eggs thin, and that broke eggs before chicks were hatched. The only alternative was to dig an expensive ditch diverting the water away from the bird sanctuary. Plans were made to do that, but President Bush (our self-appointed environmental president) canceled the project. The area now, still historic as an early settlement, is now a lifeless, smelly, swamp in the San Joquin Valley, California, and a blotch upon the land.

There is hardly a place in America where the water is pure enough to drink. On the east coast, nuclear reactors are rife, and just one crash of a terrorist would make a dirty bomb (not detonation, but spread of nuclear material that would last tens of thousands of years).

Mormons want to help. They want peace. They want to be free of oppression and hatred of others. You can't blame them for meaning well.

Mormons opposed the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

 

[ElishaElijah]

What he is saying is, there are other choices and it doesn't have to be this or that.

What are the other choices?
I see and understand that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, died on the cross, buried in the tomb, rose from the dead. Perfect, sinless, not just a man, not just a prophet. The Son of God, The Lamb of God who took away the sin of the World.

You see Jesus as a good man, just another messenger although Jesus said only God is good, except Jesus never sinned like all the rest, Jesus received worship from men although no prophet of God would do such a thing.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I see and understand that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh..

That is a contradiction.
A man is a man .. and G-d is G-d.

G-d is of infinite nature. He is aware of everything that is in each and every one of our minds.
He never sleeps or eats etc.

It simply makes no sense.

 

[ElishaElijah]

That is a contradiction.
A man is a man .. and G-d is G-d.

G-d is of infinite nature. He is aware of everything that is in each and every one of our minds.
He never sleeps or eats etc.

It simply makes no sense.

It makes no sense until you are born again, that’s when God opens your understanding and shows you these things.
“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭2:14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Jesus says before Abraham, I AM, God the Son became a man, lived among us, Immanuel. Look at the lengths He went to save us, to humble Himself and become a man! Wow

God is all powerful, yet He couldn’t become a man and live among us, ok. See this was not too difficult for Him and doesn’t go against His Word or Character, on the contrary, He demonstrates who He is and His incredible love for us. This is shown and demonstrated in Jesus Christ.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It makes no sense until you are born again..

No. A person who is "born again" does not believe in logical contradictions.
A person who is "born again" becomes closer to G-d, that is true.
How that might occur is dependent on their environment and many other factors.

A creed is a creed. It either makes logical sense or it doesn't.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No. A person who is "born again" does not believe in logical contradictions.
A person who is "born again" becomes closer to G-d, that is true.
How that might occur is dependent on their environment and many other factors.

A creed is a creed. It either makes logical sense or it doesn't.

So you are saying, Jesus was just a man, a messenger, prophet, a good man. How can you say this when He received worship from man and didn’t tell them to stop like the angels of God. Only God is to receive worship, Jesus did this.
You would need to strike him from your writings and call him out as a blasphemer.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You would need to strike him from your writings and call him out as a blasphemer.

Not at all.

It is only your belief that Jesus was surrounded by disciples who worshiped him as G-d.
Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Not at all.

It is only your belief that Jesus was surrounded by disciples who worshiped him as G-d.
Don't shoot the messenger.

So you’re saying that He wasn’t, @MyM saysnhe was

 

[muhammad_isa]

So you’re saying that He wasn’t,

I'm saying that he wasn't.

I'm saying that the disciples believed him to be the Christ [Messiah] promised to the Jews, and they considered him to be "the son of God"[special as other sons of G-d in the OT].
They followed him like a Rabbi /teacher, and had faith that he could not misguide them, lie to them, and that his connection with the Father [G-d] was as close as could be.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I am ever-so-often told by Christians who find out that I do not believe that a god exists, that “You are denying God because you just want to sin.” This has always struck me as a bizarre thing to say, as I cannot think of anything that a Christian would consider a sin that I would have needed to leave Christianity to do.

I mean there are lots of good Christians out there doing great things, and most of you are perfectly decent people who I would probably enjoy having as coworkers and neighbors. But seriously folks, you all sin. Every last one of you. You sin inadvertently. You sin impulsively. You sin with premeditation. You covet coworkers, neighbors, friends and random strangers. You covet their stuff and their bodies. Unless you are asexual or (possibly) greysexual, you commit adultery in your hearts, and roughly 25% of you commit adultery in your pants as a married person.

Christian employees steal quarters from their coworker’s desks to buy cokes and they steal office supplies from their employers. Christian employers don’t pay a living wage, and then call the employee lazy when they refuse to work extra hours (bearing false witness). Sometimes the employer even fires them; and while there is no ‘Thou shalt not be a jerk’ commandment, the golden rule takes a beating several times a day/

You leave your parents in nursing homes when you could move them in with you. (C’mon folks! Honor your mother and father.)

You do illegal drugs. You take the lord’s name in vain. You get divorced.

And yet, You are saved by your acceptance of Jesus Christ into your heart as your own personal Lord and Saviour. Hallelujah and Amen. Sing it, Sister!

"I've been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb,
saved and sanctified I am.
All my sins are washed away,
I've been redeemed."​

“unchastity, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, folly”

So, exactly why would I need to leave Christianity to do anything? All the “sins” I might ever commit, I could commit as a Christian. And be saved.

There are three reasons for atheism, not all skeptics have all three in their lives:

1) The person has not yet encountered God

2) The person was abused by Christians or "Christians"

3) The person is committed to sin

The Bible indicates that immoral people reject the knowledge of God (those skeptics who are #3 above). While I would argue with you that born agains are not born again TO sin, it is clear that many advocates of atheism (Huxley comes to mind first) said atheism IS key to moral freedom to indulge in sins religious people abhor.

 

[ppp]

There are three reasons for atheism, not all skeptics have all three in their lives:

Atheists are skeptics and not all skeptics are atheists. The two are not synonymous.
Try again.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The future is only one outcome whether known or not known.

That must mean there is no will and we live in a hard deterministic world if there is only one possible outcome. For free will to exist there must be multiple possibilities of the future. Choosing this one possibility, whether we wanted it or not, necessarily means choice is only an illusion because it was never possible to choose something else.

The future is a series of events. It is fixed by definition. It is just that it is either known or not known.

That means determinist, not free will.
determinism | Definition, Philosophers, & Facts.

determinism, in philosophy, theory that all events, including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes. Determinism is usually understood to preclude free will because it entails that humans cannot act otherwise than they do.