I just want to sin!!!

[muhammad_isa]

Destiny is incompatible with free will.

Can you see your destiny?
I can't.

 

[Sheldon]

Why do you protest constantly, endlessly, verbosely, rudely about God on forums?

Seriously, you're asking why people are debating religion, on a public religious debate forum?

 

[Sheldon]

Can you see your destiny?
I can't.

It was your claim that "You can't escape your destiny," that claim is incompatible with free will. You also claim a deity exists and knows what that destiny is, before it happens, and again this is incompatible with free will.

 

[Sheldon]

No it isn't. If you speak about a future, then it can only be ONE OUTCOME
It is true that we don't know what it is. It is hidden from us. We perceive that it has not happened. We are effectively trapped in time-space.

How many different version of yesterday did you have?

No .. "before it happens" assumes that time is absolute and rules all.

No it doesn't, it deals with the reality we face of linear time in temporal universe. Which was what your claim was about.

It is true that we can't change what G-d knows. That is because G-d knows what we will choose. It is not because we can't choose what we want to choose.

Does this deity know which single choice we will ultimately make?

Now, you can hypothetically say that "what if I want to choose something different? I can't".

No. You can't. G-d knows that you won't want to choose something different.

Then free will would be an illusion, as the ultimate choice was known, before we make it, making the other choices an illusion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Then free will would be an illusion, as the ultimate choice was known, before we make it, making the other choices an illusion.

Yeah .. your whole life is an illusion, until something happens to "bring you to your senses"

There is nothing illusionary about deciding to drive your car into a brick wall.
If that is what you are purposely going to do [ destiny ], then you can blame G-d if you like. Not that it will help you.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
1. What are you replacing capitalism with, when you destroy usury?

It is not a case of replacing capitalism. It is a case of not being involved with usury.

Capitalism and the industrial revolution would not be possible without the idea of credit and borrowing, and without usury credit would not have happened.

I don't think climate-change is going to be solved per se.

Then why did you claim "religion, and not science would solve climate change"?

There is destruction ahead which ever way you look at it.

Also rain, and sunshine, and storms, and hot weather, and mild weather and cold weather...since we are now apparently just stating the obvious.

It is valuable knowledge, to know what is the cause [major sin - usury],
even if you can't prevent it.

That's not knowledge, it is a subjective claim. Without usury and the credit that depends on it, the industrial revolution could not have happened.

 

[leroy]

I am ever-so-often told by Christians who find out that I do not believe that a god exists, that “You are denying God because you just want to sin.” This has always struck me as a bizarre thing to say, as I cannot think of anything that a Christian would consider a sin that I would have needed to leave Christianity to do.

I mean there are lots of good Christians out there doing great things, and most of you are perfectly decent people who I would probably enjoy having as coworkers and neighbors. But seriously folks, you all sin. Every last one of you. You sin inadvertently. You sin impulsively. You sin with premeditation. You covet coworkers, neighbors, friends and random strangers. You covet their stuff and their bodies. Unless you are asexual or (possibly) greysexual, you commit adultery in your hearts, and roughly 25% of you commit adultery in your pants as a married person.

Christian employees steal quarters from their coworker’s desks to buy cokes and they steal office supplies from their employers. Christian employers don’t pay a living wage, and then call the employee lazy when they refuse to work extra hours (bearing false witness). Sometimes the employer even fires them; and while there is no ‘Thou shalt not be a jerk’ commandment, the golden rule takes a beating several times a day/

You leave your parents in nursing homes when you could move them in with you. (C’mon folks! Honor your mother and father.)

You do illegal drugs. You take the lord’s name in vain. You get divorced.

And yet, You are saved by your acceptance of Jesus Christ into your heart as your own personal Lord and Saviour. Hallelujah and Amen. Sing it, Sister!

"I've been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb,
saved and sanctified I am.
All my sins are washed away,
I've been redeemed."​

“unchastity, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, folly”

So, exactly why would I need to leave Christianity to do anything? All the “sins” I might ever commit, I could commit as a Christian. And be saved.

Yes we all sin, but we Christians have a nasty feeling and the sensation that we are moving apart from God.

Sometimes is easier to simply deny the existence of God, (or to look at the evidence with a bias towards atheism)

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
Then free will would be an illusion, as the ultimate choice was known, before we make it, making the other choices an illusion.

Yeah .. your whole life is an illusion, until something happens to "bring you to your senses"

Not remotely what I said, though it is side splittingly ironic.

There is nothing illusionary about deciding to drive your car into a brick wall. If that is what you are purposely going to do [ destiny ], then you can blame G-d if you like. Not that it will help you.

I don't believe in a any deity, so it is absurd to keep insisting I blame a deity for anything. You claimed a deity knows what we will do before we do it, and claimed we have free will to choose, but keep ignoring the irrational contradiction.

If a deity existed, and knew exactly what I would have typed here, before I typed it. Not knew all the options I had mind you, but knew exactly the post I would settle on, then I would have had no other choice, thus any free will would be an illusion.

 

[Sheldon]

Yes we all sin, but we Christians have a nasty feeling and the sensation that we are moving apart from God.

Sometimes is easier to simply deny the existence of God, (or to look at the evidence with a bias towards atheism)

Or simply note there isn't a shred of objective evidence for any of the thousands of deities humans have imagined, all of which you also disbelieve except for one. One assumes you are using bias for all those thousands of deities you don't believe are real then?

Unlike you, I can only speak for myself, and treat all claims the same, and I'm no more biased against god claims, than I am about mermaid claims or unicorn claims.

 

[leroy]

Then free will would be an illusion, as the ultimate choice was known, before we make it, making the other choices an illusion.

That the ultimate choice was known by someone and that we have free will are not mutually exclusive concepts (both can be true at the same time)


Imagine that you today freely decided to eat hamburgers rather than hotdogs.

Now pretend that a time traveler was silently observing you such that yesterday he knew about you free choice.

How does the knowledge of the time traveler changes the fact that you made a free choice?


If you would have freely chosen hotdogs then the knowledge of the time traveler would have been different.

In other words knowledge is determined by your free choices (not the other way around)


In this analogy God is the time traveler, with the difference that God doest need to travel to the future in order to have that knowledge.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Without usury and the credit that depends on it, the industrial revolution could not have happened.

..and that would have been a bad thing?

 

[leroy]

Or simply note there isn't a shred of objective evidence for any of the thousands of deities humans have imagined,

I don’t know, since you haven’t define what you mean by objective evidence, that statement is meaningless.

all of which you also disbelieve except for one. One assumes you are using bias for all those thousands of deities you don't believe are real then?

Of all the billions of woman that exist in the world, I only have evidence that I am married with one woman.

The fact that there is no evidence no evidence of me being married with any of those billions of woman, doesn’t invalidate the fact that I do have evidence for the claim that I am married with a specific woman.


In other words the argument of

“there is no evidence for Zeus” therefore there is no evidence for God is fallacious

Unlike you, I can only speak for myself, and treat all claims the same, and I'm no more biased against god claims, than I am about mermaid claims or unicorn claims.

Form previous discussions its obvious that you have a clear bias, you even disagree with simple and uncontroversial claims that are supported by peer reviewed literature.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If a deity existed, and knew exactly what I would have typed here, before I typed it. Not knew all the options I had mind you, but knew exactly the post I would settle on, then I would have had no other choice, thus any free will would be an illusion.

False. You do have a choice.
There is nothing illusionary about it, just because it might be known by an agent who perceives the universe as "already happened".

If you can't believe that it is possible for G-d to perceive the universe as "already happened", then it's up to you.
I believe it, and I see that it is not irrational for G-d to know absolutely everything there is to know.

 

[Sheldon]

That the ultimate choice was known by someone and that we have free will are not mutually exclusive concepts (both can be true at the same time)


Imagine that you today freely decided to eat hamburgers rather than hotdogs.

Now pretend that a time traveler was silently observing you such that yesterday he knew about you free choice.

How does the knowledge of the time traveler changes the fact that you made a free choice?

My assertion did not involve a fantasy time traveller, and I have never cared for hotdogs. However as a hypothetical exercise, if the time traveller travels back before the point I chose, then can I change what it observed and choose a hotdogs? If so then the time traveller doesn't really know what I will choose does it, as was claimed, however if it's knowledge gained by observing my choice, means I can no longer choose differently when it travels back in time, then free will obviously would be incompatible with that knowledge.

 

[Sheldon]

I don’t know, since you haven’t define what you mean by objective evidence, that statement is meaningless.

Well as much as I'd like to keep adding word definitions each time you don't know one, maybe you could look up the words yourself?

Of all the billions of woman that exist in the world, I only have evidence that I am married with one woman.

The fact that there is no evidence no evidence of me being married with any of those billions of woman, doesn’t invalidate the fact that I do have evidence for the claim that I am married with a specific woman.


In other words the argument of

“there is no evidence for Zeus” therefore there is no evidence for God is fallacious

I agree, though since I made no such argument I'm wondering why you're telling me something I already know, but ignoring what I actually said?

Form previous discussions its obvious that you have a clear bias, you even disagree with simple and uncontroversial claims that are supported by peer reviewed literature.

Is it? I suspect the bias is yours, given the dishonesty of that claim. A word of warning, one poster relentlessly ignored what I had posted, and misrepresented what I had said when I came here, and would not desist, I was forced to put him on ignore. So don't make a habit of this.

 

[Sheldon]

False. You do have a choice.

I agree, but this would not be the case if exactly what I was going to do was known beforehand, as then I could not change it.

 

[ppp]

Yes we all sin, but we Christians have a nasty feeling and the sensation that we are moving apart from God.

Okay.

Sometimes is easier to simply deny the existence of God, (or to look at the evidence with a bias towards atheism)

You have no clue as to what my biases were when I deconverted. Did you even know that I deconverted? You are just making things up with a bias towards your preferred narrative.

Exodus 20:16, Leroy

 

[muhammad_isa]

I agree, but this would not be the case if exactly what I was going to do was known beforehand, as then I could not change it.

That's daft. It is totally irrelevant.
The only reason you apparently can't change it, is because you don't want to change it .. hence there is no loss of free-will.

That is what you are saying. If something is known before it happens, then you can't change it.

NOBODY can change it, quite obviously.

If you imagine somebody with a movie camera taking a movie of your whole life, does that render you being incapable of making choices? No, of course not.
..yet it can't be changed.
You just don't believe that it is possible for G-d to know what happens in the future, because "it hasn't happened".

..whereas I, think out of the box, and assume that time is not what it appears to be. It is our perception, and not necessarily G-d's.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
I agree, but this would not be the case if exactly what I was going to do was known beforehand, as then I could not change it.

That's daft. It is totally irrelevant.

No it's not "daft", and no it is not "irrelevant".

The only reason you apparently can't change it, is because you don't want to change it .. hence there is no loss of free-will.

Eau contraire, the reason (in this hypothetical claim of yours) I cannot change it, is because a deity already knows exactly what I will do beforehand.

That is what you are saying. If something is known before it happens, then you can't change it.

No that is what you are saying, and I, and others, are pointing out that if my exact choice is known beforehand then logically I cannot change it.

If you imagine somebody with a movie camera taking a movie of your whole life, does that render you being incapable of making choices? No, of course not...yet it can't be changed.

Can I change it after the movie has been made?

You just don't believe that it is possible for G-d to know what happens in the future, because "it hasn't happened".

Ah, you're back to stating the obvious, then no as an atheist I don't believe in any deity, or the unevidenced assumptions theists make about the characteristics of the deity they imagine is real. However this is moot, as even if I believed your claim that a deity knows exactly what I will do, before I do it, it would still mean I had no free will, or any autonomy of any kind.

..whereas I, think out of the box,

Well if I may be candid, I doubt you could even find the box, with both hands, and flashlight.

and assume that time is not what it appears to be. It is our perception, and not necessarily G-d's.

Now here we agree, your posts suggest that you do love to assume.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I, and others, are pointing out that if my exact choice is known beforehand then logically I cannot change it.

Nobody can change it. So what.
You claim that that means you don't have free-will.
It doesn't mean anything of the sort.

The question is, do you WANT to change it?
If you wanted to change it, and you couldn't, then I can agree with you that you would then have no free-will.
..but that is not the case, and if you can't see that, then I can't help wondering why?

..so to summarise, G-d knows what you will WANT to choose. Hence no loss of free-will.