I just want to sin!!!

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
I, and others, are pointing out that if my exact choice is known beforehand then logically I cannot change it.

Nobody can change it. So what.
You claim that that means you don't have free-will.
It doesn't mean anything of the sort.

 

[leroy]

My assertion did not involve a fantasy time traveller, and I have never cared for hotdogs. However as a hypothetical exercise, if the time traveller travels back before the point I chose, then can I change what it observed and choose a hotdogs? If so then the time traveller doesn't really know what I will choose does it, as was claimed, however if it's knowledge gained by observing my choice, means I can no longer choose differently when it travels back in time, then free will obviously would be incompatible with that knowledge.

Nothing stopped you from choosing hotdogs, your choice was not affected by someone else’s knowledge

means I can no longer choose differently

You will still have the ability to choose differently, it´s just that you wouldn’t choose differently and the time traveler and God knows that.

 

[leroy]

Well as much as I'd like to keep adding word definitions each time you don't know one, maybe you could look up the words yourself?

.

Evidence is anything that makes a specific claim more likely to be true.


For example an eye witness testimony of John claiming that Mark killed Billy would count as evidence for Mark Killing Billy because the existence of that testimony makes the claim more likely to be true than if such testimony wouldn’t exist.



Do you accept this definition of evidence?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Imagine that you today freely decided to eat hamburgers rather than hotdogs.

Now pretend that a time traveler was silently observing you such that yesterday he knew about you free choice.

How does the knowledge of the time traveler changes the fact that you made a free choice?

That's like reading a history book. It's something that already happened. For something to be a choice there must be equally plausible options available to select from without there being foreknowledge of what will be selected and without external influences making that decision for you (this is why getting someone intoxicated to gain consent to have sex voids consent due to the influence of the drugs and deceptions used and is considered rape). If these parameters are not met then the existence of free will has not been demonstrated. Because if it is known for certain what will be chosen then there was never a choice to begin with because we couldn't have chosen something else because we had to choose what we chose. Such as with prophecy. If someone has to do something and is destined to do something, there is no real choice for the individual as all choices in this person's life must lead up to this prophecy being fulfilled if it must be fulfilled. If it's a choice the individual spoken of in prophecy would be able to avert this prophecy being fulfilled by choosing options that do not lead to that prophecy being fulfilled.
External influences, not only does this cover date rape but it's also basically the source of many hows and whys concerning how behaviors and habits and personalities are molded and influenced by physical and mental illness. These suggests there is no free will as we can make numerous predictions based on a plethora of research and data. Like how we can predict those with traumatic childhoods are more likely to have troubled adulthoods. This is very often true, especially without intervention to help avert these detrimental outcomes. Those with Tourette's Syndrome, they have absolutely no choice at all in their behaviors related to their disorder. The same goes for schizophrenia. These do not suggest that our lives are destined to have a certainly known outcome, but it does show we just cannot have a free will, and what will we may have is heavily constrained. Especially once we consider how our cultural upbringing influences us.

That the ultimate choice was known by someone and that we have free will are not mutually exclusive concepts (both can be true at the same time)

But if it is known what we are going to choose and cannot choose anything else then the choice was only an illusion because we were not able to freely choose something else.

 

[leroy]

Okay.


You have no clue as to what my biases were when I deconverted. Did you even know that I deconverted? You are just making things up with a bias towards your preferred narrative.

Exodus 20:16, Leroy

I am not saying that you personally deconverted for that reason.

I simply said that it is possible and likely that some would reject God to avoid the nasty feeling that Sin produces.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Ah .. has the penny dropped?

The only reason why you can't change what G-d knows, is because G-d knows what you want to choose!
If you had wanted to choose an alternative option, then you would have done so.

 

[leroy]

But if it is known what we are going to choose and cannot choose anything else then the choice was only an illusion because we were not able to freely choose something else.

No, you can choose something else, it is just that you wouldn’t.

Someone knowing what you will choose does nothing to remove your ability to choose differently.

If we play chess, I might know with a high degree of certainty which piece you will move, but that doesn’t mean that you didn’t had the ability to do differently.

 

[ppp]

I am not saying that you personally deconverted for that reason.

Ah, of course. You are not talking about me. You are talking about those other atheists. I wouldn't know them. They go to another school. And live in Canada. And they have no access to phones or internet. And they only speak a rare Norwegian dialect.

I simply said that it is possible and likely that some would reject God to avoid the nasty feeling that Sin produces.

No. It's not.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, you can choose something else, it is just that you wouldn’t.

But then it's not I choice. If I would never have chosen the other then it was not a free and fair choice.

 

[Sheldon]

Nothing stopped you from choosing hotdogs, your choice was not affected by someone else’s knowledge



You will still have the ability to choose differently, it´s just that you wouldn’t choose differently and the time traveler and God knows that.

Then you have misunderstood the claim, as it was that a deity knows exactly what I will choose, before I choose it. This is would make any other choices an illusion. The time traveller analogy was a poor one, as the traveller would have to go back in time and know what my choice would be before I make it because it had seen me make it, if the traveller goes back and I can still change my choice, then it clearly doesn't know the exact choice I will make.

 

[leroy]

But then it's not I choice. If I would never have chosen the other then it was not a free and fair choice.

Sure, in a parallel universe you could have chosen hotdogs and both God and the time traveler would have this knowledge.

My points that free choices, don’t magically become “not-free” just because someone has knowledge about your choice.

 

[Sheldon]

Evidence is anything that makes a specific claim more likely to be true.


For example an eye witness testimony of John claiming that Mark killed Billy would count as evidence for Mark Killing Billy because the existence of that testimony makes the claim more likely to be true than if such testimony wouldn’t exist.



Do you accept this definition of evidence?

Evidence is the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. Evidence need not be conclusive of course, or it may reach a point where denial becomes unreasonable, even irrational. NB I specified objective evidence.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

My points that free choices, don’t magically become “not-free” just because someone has knowledge about your choice.

It was never free to begin with if there is foreknowledge.

 

[Sheldon]

But if it is known what we are going to choose and cannot choose anything else then the choice was only an illusion because we were not able to freely choose something else.

Exactly...

 

[Sheldon]

The only reason why you can't change what G-d knows, is because G-d knows what you want to choose!

Then you would not have free will, you can juggle semantics all you want, but if the exact choice I'm going to make is known before I make it, then I axiomatically cannot make any other choice.

 

[Sheldon]

SHELDON: Yes, but I can't logically choose anything other than what G-d knows, [because I don't want to].

SHELDON: Yes, but I can't logically choose anything other than what G-d knows, [because I don't want to].

SHELDON: Yes, but I can't logically choose anything other than what G-d knows, [because I don't want to].

Don't make up statements, and assign my name to them please.

 

[Sheldon]

Someone knowing what you will choose does nothing to remove your ability to choose differently.

Yes it does, those are mutually exclusive.

If we play chess, I might know with a high degree of certainty which piece you will move, but that doesn’t mean that you didn’t had the ability to do differently.

Semantics, as this is not what was claimed. We are not talking about a high degree of certainty, we are talking about knowing exactly what we will do, before we do it. that would negate us doing anything else.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Don't make up statements, and assign my name to them please.

Did you not say that you can't logically choose anything other than what G-d knows?
Why would that be?

Are you claiming that a choice that you will make that G-d knows could be a choice that you didn't WANT to make?
If so, then G-d is not omniscient.
After all, G-d knows everything. He knows everything about us. He knows what we like and what we don't like. He knows when we are lying and when we tell the truth.

 

[Sheldon]

Sure, in a parallel universe you could have chosen hotdogs and both God and the time traveler would have this knowledge.

My points that free choices, don’t magically become “not-free” just because someone has knowledge about your choice.

This was not the claim, once again it is not knowledge of our choice, what was claimed was that a deity knew exactly what we will choose, beforehand. If this were true then any other choices would be an illusion.

 

[Sheldon]

The statement is not made up.
The words in brackets aren't your words, they are mine.

SHELDON: Yes, but I can't logically choose anything other than what G-d knows, [because I don't want to].

Did you not say that you can't logically choose anything other than what G-d knows?
Why would that be?

Are you claiming that a choice that you will make that G-d knows could be a choice that you didn't WANT to make?
If so, then G-d is not omniscient.
After all, G-d knows everything. He knows everything about us. He knows what we like and what we don't like. He knows when we are lying and when we tell the trth.

STOP MAKING STATEMENTS AND ASSIGNING MY NAME TO THEM PLEASE? Those are not quotes from my posts...