I just want to sin!!!

[muhammad_isa]

Here is the argument again then..

"I have two choices A or B. You claim that a deity knows I will choose A, thus I could never have chosen B, obviously, and the free will to choose B over A was only an illusion.

If a deity knows I will choose A, then how can I choose B without the deity being wrong? If a deity knows I will choose B then how can I choose A, without the deity being wrong? If the deity I will choose A or B, then it knows no more than I do."

How does that answer my question?

Are you claiming that a choice that you will make [that G-d knows], could be a choice that you didn't WANT to make?
Yes, no or "maybe so" ?

I can come back to your argument about A's and B's when you answer my question, if you want me to.

 

[Polymath257]

OK .. sorry.

Are you claiming that a choice that you will make that G-d knows, could be a choice that you didn't WANT to make?

Apparently you are, which means that G-d is not omniscient.
That is a contradiction.

Exactly. There is a contradiction between free will and an omniscient deity.

In this case, the choice was determined before I chose it. That means that it was not *free* will. It was determined will. I could have chosen no other if it was predetermined what I would choose.

 

[ppp]

Right, then you were acting for G-d when you wrote your post?

Under the hypothetical that there was an omni-god. yep.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Exactly. There is a contradiction between free will and an omniscient deity.

In this case, the choice was determined before I chose it. That means that it was not *free* will. It was determined will. I could have chosen no other if it was predetermined what I would choose.

No. It was not "predetermined".
Who/what predetermined it, according to you?

..and I notice that you didn't answer the question, either.
Are you claiming that a choice that you will make [that G-d knows], could be a choice that you didn't WANT to make?
Yes, no or "maybe so" ?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Under the hypothetical that there was an omni-god. yep.

Yes, that's what I thought.
Your argument is that there couldn't be such a G-d, if we have free-will.
I believe that your argument is flawed.

Would you like to answer my question?
Are you claiming that a choice that you will make [that G-d knows], could be a choice that you didn't WANT to make?
Yes, no or "maybe so" ?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What is the reason for "what we do"? Is it because "we can't choose any different", or is it because that is what we choose to do?

According to you it's because god already knows what we will do. He set everything into motion, he knows what comes next and how it all ends. This means free will cannot exist.

 

[ppp]

I believe that your argument is flawed.

I am sure you do. And?

 

[ppp]

Are you claiming that a choice that you will make [that G-d knows], could be a choice that you didn't WANT to make?

I am not claiming that.

 

[leroy]

Your claim violates the law of non contradiction.

Maybe, but you have to prove that assertion

 

[leroy]

If I have two choices A or B, and a deity (as that was the claim) knows which one I will ultimately make, then I axiomatically cannot choose otherwise. The choice would have been an illusion.

Let's say that the deity has bad memory and doest remember his prior knowledge about your future choices.

Does that magically restores the possibility of free choice?

 

[muhammad_isa]

According to you it's because god already knows what we will do. He set everything into motion, he knows what comes next and how it all ends. This means free will cannot exist.

I think we are talking about different concepts here.
The concept I refer to is the capacity of people to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.

I think you are referring to free-will in the sense that although it appears that we have free-will [as defined above], it is only an illusion regardless of whether a future is known or not.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I am not claiming that.

No, right.
Then what are you defining free-will to mean?
I don't think it is the same as my definition.
see post #491

 

[Sheldon]

How does that answer my question?

Are you claiming that a choice that you will make [that G-d knows], could be a choice that you didn't WANT to make?
Yes, no or "maybe so" ?

No, I reacting to your claim, and asserting it is irrational for the reasons stated.

I can come back to your argument about A's and B's when you answer my question, if you want me to.

Off you go then...

I did answer your question. Not only did I answer your question, I answered very explicitly, and I answered it twice, and for all to see. You are the one who is blindly repeating your claim, emboldened. If my argument is wrong, then you have pointedly failed to even attempt to explain why, and the inference from that handwaving is pretty obvious. Here is the argument again then, just to show your bad faith in denying I answered you.

"I have two choices A or B. You claim that a deity knows I will choose A, thus I could never have chosen B, obviously, and the free will to choose B over A was only an illusion.

If a deity knows I will choose A, then how can I choose B without the deity being wrong? If a deity knows I will choose B then how can I choose A, without the deity being wrong? If the deity I will choose A or B, then it knows no more than I do."

 

[ppp]

No, right.
Then what are you defining free-will to mean?
I don't think it is the same as my definition.
see post #491

The concept I refer to is the capacity of people to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.

I m using this definition from https://www.theopedia.com/libertarian-free-will

Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God. All "free will theists" hold that libertarian freedom is essential for moral responsibility, for if our choice is determined or caused by anything, including our own desires, they reason, it cannot properly be called a free choice. Libertarian freedom is, therefore, the freedom to act contrary to one's nature, predisposition and greatest desires. Responsibility, in this view, always means that one could have done otherwise.

That is mutually exclusive of omniscience and omnipotence.

 

[Sheldon]

Maybe, but you have to prove that assertion

It contains two contradictory claims.

1. That deity knows exactly what I will do, before I do it.

2. That I still have free will.

 

[Sheldon]

Let's say that the deity has bad memory and doest remember his prior knowledge about your future choices.

Does that magically restores the possibility of free choice?

What relevance has that to the claim a deity knows exactly what I will do, before I do it? Or to this claim negating free will?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature..

What does that mean? I'm not sure..

 

[muhammad_isa]

It contains two contradictory claims.

1. That deity knows exactly what I will do, before I do it.

2. That I still have free will.

No. You are just repeating your assertion. You are not explaining why this is so.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No.

So if you are not claiming that the choices you make are not what you want to make, how can you say that you haven't made those choices entirely of your own free-will?
Isn't that the definition of free-will? Being able to make the choices you want to make?

Off you go then...

If a deity knows I will choose A, then how can I choose B without the deity being wrong? If a deity knows I will choose B then how can I choose A, without the deity being wrong?

This is merely stating the obvious.
If you assume that G-d knows exactly what you will choose, then he knows what you want to choose. It doesn't mean that you were forced to choose A or B,

The reason why you choose something is very important.
Is it that you choose A because you had no other choice, or is it that you wanted to choose A?
One implies no free-will, while the other does not.

 

[ppp]

What does that mean? I'm not sure..

It means that our will is unimpeded by God, or desire, or environment, or biology. Basically that the choices we make are made free of those constraints. The position is that our will is uncaused. It is a pretty standard theological view. At least in the Abrahamic religions. Calvinists dispute it, of course. Not the definition. Just that we have free will.