I just don't being gay is really in the same realm as being a drunkard, slanderer, thief, or murderer (as some versions of this verse have).
Also, Sodom and Gomorrah was not about about homosexuality as we know it in todays context. If at all.
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I keep having dreams about Byzantine Christianity.
- Thread starter StarryNightshade
- Start date
I just don't being gay is really in the same realm as being a drunkard, slanderer, thief, or murderer (as some versions of this verse have).
Also, Sodom and Gomorrah was not about about homosexuality as we know it in todays context. If at all.
Okay. Not to sound stupid or rude, but what does this have to do with the OP or conversation at hand?
Out of curiosity, have you ever been to a Byzantine Catholic church or an Orthodox church? How would you be able to tell the difference between them in a dream? Was it simply an intuition that you had, or were there details that tipped you off?
In any case, this is fascinating to me.
I know you said you have no interest in converting to Christianity, but I would like to offer the following thoughts:
Being homosexual is no impediment to being a good Christian. The Synod currently underway by the Catholic Church, while not reversing their stance on homosexuality, is making it clear that their doors are open to homosexuals and those in homosexual relationships. Both the Catholic and the Orthodox churches are beginning to take far more pastoral and compassionate approaches than what most would have even thought possible a few decades ago.
Also, I don't think that a political position should be seen as any kind of dealbreaker. We do not live in a society governed by Church teaching. I myself think that gay marriage should be legal, as should abortions (not because abortions are always morally acceptable, mind you). Christianity is--or should be--apolitical.
What did you get out of those dreams, aside from sensory input? What did you sense as being the point the dream was trying to get across to you? Was there anything of that nature?
Regardless, I will pray for you. May God help you as you discern these dreams.
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Draupadi
Active Member
Well I have always been attracted towards Christianity. I like the way Christians worship in the church by singing, etc. I like some of its peaceful ideologies and concepts of afterlife. There are some great stuff in the Bible too. Here in Bangladesh we don't have any pretty churches but that never stopped me from staring at them in awe, as if they are some divine place. I would love to be a Christian if I didn't have any other options. But I guess my relationship with Christianity is rather an infatuation.
It could be memories from past lives......just a possibility
dynavert2012
Active Member
if you are still a christian, i'll tell you to check Islam as that belief matches with it
if i'm you, i'll not convert to Christianity but i'll re-think about it again, maybe i'll choose an Orthodox church,( there are a lot in Egypt or russia "i don't know which is closer to you" if you don't have any in your country) and begin to listen to the teachings there, may you discover something you never knew about it even if you were christian in the past
Shuttlecraft
.Navigator
Well why did God toast Sodom/Gomorrah, for jaywalking?
Don't forget there are all sorts of gays and bisexuals ranging from the nice friendly sort to the S/G nasty sort.
And some are 100% gay, but others are only a little bit gay, so we shouldn't lump them all together..
Shuttlecraft
.Navigator
Topic title: I keep having dreams about Byzantine Christianity.
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Whatever floats yer boat..
With me, I dream of Nurse Chappel, Dr Quinn, Sarah Palin, the woman in the grocers etc etc..
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Whatever floats yer boat..
With me, I dream of Nurse Chappel, Dr Quinn, Sarah Palin, the woman in the grocers etc etc..
First off all, thanks for the answers Shiranui.
Well, I may be way off base (I can be quite ignorant at times), but in the Catholic church, we used a Rosary while saying the Apostles Creed, Hail Mary, and Lord's prayer. As far as I know, EO doesn't use Rosaries. Also, during communion in the EO church, leavened bread was used.
I've noticed this as well. The Catholic church, in general, has been re-evaluating how it applies it's laws and teachings to it's followers; if not necessarily changing them. Like with Homosexuality: The Catholic church still claims it is a sin, but has become a lot more open to gay members and couples (to an extent) in the past couple of years. I had no idea the Orthodox Church was doing the same. As I have always heard claims that Orthodox will never change.
Even still, if being gay is a "sin", why should that exclude them from being in communion with God? I've heard the reasons why, but wouldn't be better to keep LGBT people in the sacraments, rather than completely shun them?
I will admit, this bias comes from the fact that I live in America and always am surrounded by the Religious Right, who are just trying their hardest to gain a monopoly. I understand that Catholics and Orthodox Christians can be pro-LGBT or Pro-Choice (I actually know a few, like my ex roommate), but it unfortunately seems like more and more influence is being gained to these body of churches from the Religious Right. While the churches may be Ecclesiastical orders, there are individuals with working brains who will have different thoughts and opinion from what is officially said.
Heck, for example, at the local Greek Orthodox church, there is no separation of genders and only one much elderly women covered her hair. Yet, the liturgy and mode of worship was still very Orthodox; as were the theology of the people.
Also, I will admit another bias: what is going on in Russia regarding the Orthodox church. I'm fully secular (in that religion and government should be separated), and I think that what is going on in Russia is terrifying. Not just towards LGBT, but to the entire political atmosphere.
I suppose there is the interest to explore. Even if ultimately nothing comes from it.
Thanks.
Well, I may be way off base (I can be quite ignorant at times), but in the Catholic church, we used a Rosary while saying the Apostles Creed, Hail Mary, and Lord's prayer. As far as I know, EO doesn't use Rosaries. Also, during communion in the EO church, leavened bread was used.
I've noticed this as well. The Catholic church, in general, has been re-evaluating how it applies it's laws and teachings to it's followers; if not necessarily changing them. Like with Homosexuality: The Catholic church still claims it is a sin, but has become a lot more open to gay members and couples (to an extent) in the past couple of years. I had no idea the Orthodox Church was doing the same. As I have always heard claims that Orthodox will never change.
Even still, if being gay is a "sin", why should that exclude them from being in communion with God? I've heard the reasons why, but wouldn't be better to keep LGBT people in the sacraments, rather than completely shun them?
I will admit, this bias comes from the fact that I live in America and always am surrounded by the Religious Right, who are just trying their hardest to gain a monopoly. I understand that Catholics and Orthodox Christians can be pro-LGBT or Pro-Choice (I actually know a few, like my ex roommate), but it unfortunately seems like more and more influence is being gained to these body of churches from the Religious Right. While the churches may be Ecclesiastical orders, there are individuals with working brains who will have different thoughts and opinion from what is officially said.
Heck, for example, at the local Greek Orthodox church, there is no separation of genders and only one much elderly women covered her hair. Yet, the liturgy and mode of worship was still very Orthodox; as were the theology of the people.
Also, I will admit another bias: what is going on in Russia regarding the Orthodox church. I'm fully secular (in that religion and government should be separated), and I think that what is going on in Russia is terrifying. Not just towards LGBT, but to the entire political atmosphere.
I suppose there is the interest to explore. Even if ultimately nothing comes from it.
Thanks.
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dynavert2012
Active Member
well, something came to my mind, so i'd like to share with you, may it would help
your dream doesn't mean to convert, maybe it's for another plan which nobody could expect, going to a church could bear some surprises for you, you could meet soul mate there, you could find a Christian who's interested in another religion and so the church could lead you to another path rather than Christianity
nobody knows who the god plan, but trust him and ask him for help and guidance
wish that would help :hug:
your dream doesn't mean to convert, maybe it's for another plan which nobody could expect, going to a church could bear some surprises for you, you could meet soul mate there, you could find a Christian who's interested in another religion and so the church could lead you to another path rather than Christianity
nobody knows who the god plan, but trust him and ask him for help and guidance
wish that would help :hug:
There is also the possibilty of it being what Hindus term 'cleansing' dreams. This type of dreaming is especially true for the serious sadhaka who firstly decides to alter the subconscious, and secondly, uses mystic techniques to do this. Once the desired need for a change is implanted into the subconsious in a conscious way, the subconscious takes it upon itself to help out in this process, so to speak.
So then there are remnants ... of information, of experience, and to eliminate these remnants, the subconscious goes there and does a 'last call' so to speak. It's like in real life going one last time to your home town, just to have a look around, or going to a grave site or cremation site of a loved one who you need to forgive. It's a natural 'healing and cleansing' process.
But generally this type of thing is more for the serious yoga aspirant who is engaging in a conscious transition, often with the assistance of a qualified teacher/guru.
So then there are remnants ... of information, of experience, and to eliminate these remnants, the subconscious goes there and does a 'last call' so to speak. It's like in real life going one last time to your home town, just to have a look around, or going to a grave site or cremation site of a loved one who you need to forgive. It's a natural 'healing and cleansing' process.
But generally this type of thing is more for the serious yoga aspirant who is engaging in a conscious transition, often with the assistance of a qualified teacher/guru.
Sure. It was my pleasure.First off all, thanks for the answers Shiranui.
Alright, then you were definitely using a rosary if you were praying those three prayers. We Orthodox don't have Rosaries per se (Catholic converts and some older members of the American Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox Church notwithstanding), but we do have chotkis, or prayer ropes. They can either have beads like the Catholic Rosary, or thick woolen knots, on which we count the Jesus Prayer (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner). Both the Rosary and the chotki have the same source in the prayer ropes/beads used by the early Christian monastics, but you are right--Rosaries are distinctly Catholic.
I should add that both Eastern Catholics and Orthodox use leavened bread for communion.
The Orthodox Church is starting to open up to this, but as you might expect, we are making changes very gradually, as opposed to the Catholic Church which can quickly impose changes and new policies from the Vatican. Gay people can become monastics and clergy in the Orthodox Church, and you may have heard that Fr. Seraphim Rose, one of the greatest Orthodox teachers in the US of the last thirty years, was homosexual (he is now deceased). Before his conversion to Orthodoxy, he had a gay partner.
Being gay in and of itself is no sin, in Catholicism or in Orthodoxy. You are right, it is better for them to have access to the Sacraments, so that they may receive grace from them.
As a fun fact, the genders weren't separated in the Church (that I'm aware of) until St. John Chrysostom came along--he got tired of men checking out women and vice-versa during the Liturgy, and so one day he stopped in the middle of the Liturgy, turned around and ordered the men to sit on one side of the church, and the women on the other!
Hair covering in general for some reason has ceased to be the cultural practice in the US, so you will see it less often in an American Orthodox church. But you are right that the little things like gender separation and hair coverings are by no means a reflection of the O/orthodoxy of one's theology.
It is indeed shocking, and completely against Church teaching. Persecuting anybody for any reason is always an aberration according to the Gospels.
And given that this is my own theological tradition, I will of course encourage you to explore--if only to further your own understanding.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
I like Xianity as well, but I don't have vivid dreams of being in Churches.
jonathan180iq
Well-Known Member
The brain is a really neat little thing. If you're reading about this stuff, thinking about it constantly, spend time figuring out how to feel about it and generally just let the feelings and sensations and thoughts fill up your mind, why wouldn't you keep dreaming about it? I mean, isn't that the simplest answer?
Once you figure out what you need to figure out, either consciously or subconsciously, you'll stop having these dreams.
On a side note, kudos to you for basically having lucid dreams. Next time, try and interact and see what happens. Instead of just experiencing the dream, do consciously do something in it and see what your brain does with. It's a lot of fun.
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EverChanging
Well-Known Member
From time to time I have vivid dreams. I gave up on Christianity for a few years after some horrible experiences in a non-traditional sect and then one day all of this Christian imagery seemed to bubble out of my subconscious out of no where but from a completely different perspective. It was as if all those symbols and ideas re-arranged themselves inside me to make something familiar and yet altogether new. I fell in love with the Episcopal liturgy, music, and theological traditions (especially in its Anglo-Catholic manifestations), and it accommodated my less than orthodox views. I explored Catholicism later on, but was disappointed. I spent a lot of time reading about devotions and saints (and was informed by Anglican-Catholic practice) but the Catholicism I discovered is very bland in its liturgy with very little art or ceremony and sentimental songs from the '80's and '90's and everyone was obsessed with abortion and homosexuality (not good because I am gay). It was very different from my experience of the Episcopal Church which was much more "Catholic" in style but not obsessed with politics. And then I began having dreams about Orthodoxy, but like your dreams there were elements of Western tradition mixed into the liturgy -- I remember seeing Eucharistic Adoration in an Orthodox Church. But in most dreams like this I received communion on a spoon.
I don't really take these dreams as an indication to convert to Orthodoxy, but it is an indication that Christian imagery is a part of who I am. I have largely created my own theology and rites infused with Christian imagery and scriptures -- based on experiences that were very much outside the range of acceptability in traditional Christianity and yet very much connected to saints and Christian ideas.
You may not be aware of how much Christian symbolism, ideas, or even entities (gods?) might still be a part of you. If you were raised in it from an early age, it's likely in your blood. It doesn't necessarily mean you should be a Christian of any sort, traditional or heretical, but it's something to pay attention to.
I don't really take these dreams as an indication to convert to Orthodoxy, but it is an indication that Christian imagery is a part of who I am. I have largely created my own theology and rites infused with Christian imagery and scriptures -- based on experiences that were very much outside the range of acceptability in traditional Christianity and yet very much connected to saints and Christian ideas.
You may not be aware of how much Christian symbolism, ideas, or even entities (gods?) might still be a part of you. If you were raised in it from an early age, it's likely in your blood. It doesn't necessarily mean you should be a Christian of any sort, traditional or heretical, but it's something to pay attention to.
Sure. It was my pleasure.
And I thank you.
Very good to know. From what I could tell, the actual practices between the two are not that different from one another.
Yeah, I've heard of of Father Seraphim Rose. Really interesting life and story.
That's good to hear at least. When it comes to this hyper-focus on homosexuality, it makes me sad that such a minor part of ones overall being is being focused on. Considering that there are many heterosexual Catholics and Orthodox Christians who engage in other sinful behaviors (like pre- or extramarital sex, lying, gambling, etc.), but are still able to fully partake in church life. While a homosexual who doesn't sleep around, only in the context of a long term relationship, and is otherwise just an average individual is placed on a much worse pedestal than others who do the same things.
As a fun fact, the genders weren't separated in the Church (that I'm aware of) until St. John Chrysostom came along--he got tired of men checking out women and vice-versa during the Liturgy, and so one day he stopped in the middle of the Liturgy, turned around and ordered the men to sit on one side of the church, and the women on the other!
Don't know how true that story is, but it is a good one.
Indeed. It simply shows how religion adapts to various cultures.
Yeah. Of course, I think there is something a bit bigger going on, but I can't really say what.
And given that this is my own theological tradition, I will of course encourage you to explore--if only to further your own understanding.
Will do.
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