"I said," ye are gods? Christians Only, Please!

[JayJayDee]

While it is not important to know all the details about Adam and Eve to be saved: it is important to understand the purpose of their creation in order to have the faith necessary to lay hold on eternal life.

Can you tell me what you believe about the purpose of Adam and Eve's creation? Do you believe that they existed in heaven before being created from the dust on earth?

Next I will talk about Jesus Christ. There is something about Jesus Christ that most people do not realise but when you see it, it will really change your spiritual view. When Jesus came to earth he came as a baby. He was not a magic baby (though his birth was miraculous). He cried just as any other baby cried. He felt hunger as we all feel it. He was fully human. Jesus' power to do miracles did not come because he was God's son (others, like Elijah, had also done great miracles). His power came because of His faith, righteousness, purity, obedience, and closeness with the Father.
And that closeness was something that didn't come automatically either. He spent forty days in the wilderness fasting and praying. It is recorded that he would wake up before dawn to go and pray.
It was the way Jesus conducted his life that that led to his miraculous power.

Was Jesus then "the son of God" or was he just a good human who came from heaven to fulfil a role or purpose?
In what sense is he a savior?

This same Jesus told his disciples that if they had Faith, they would be able to do the same things he did. And we see that this was true. The seventy who Jesus called and sent out to preach told how they were able to cast out demons. Peter walked on water with Jesus until he began to doubt. Peter healed people with just his shadow passing over them just as Jesus healed the woman with his garments. Peter not only became like the Saviour in his character, he became like the Saviour in power as well. And throughout time whenever people have had faith in God they have had God's power. Daniel and the lion's den, Elisha raising a boy from the dead, Moses parting the Red sea.

Do you believe that God's power was displayed after the death of the apostles? Do you believe that miracles happen today like they did in the first centruy?

Access to God's power has also not been limited to prophet's.

This is true, but what was the purpose of these demonstrations of God's power in Bible times, and why do we not see that same power demonstrated today, in your opinion?

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

In Mark chater 16 Jesus says the following:

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
​

And so we see that with faith comes power. Power to do what? Power to become like God!

The scripture quoted above is not actually accepted as part of the original text but is considered by scholars to be spurious. Added later.
If that is true, then it confirms what the apostle Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13:8-11, 13....."But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.......And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." (NKJV)

So, the true identifying mark of the Christian faith is "love" not miracles or powerful works. (John 13:34, 35)

The miracles had their purpose but they did not go past the apostolic period, according to the Bible. When Paul warned about the great apostasy, he said it would be identified by powerful works and lying signs and wonders. (2 Thess 2:9-12) I believe we need to exercise caution when we are looking at claims of powerful works from God. This is the time when they would be performed by the devil as a trap for the spiritual infants. Love is something the devil cannot mimic.

 

[Thanda]

Can you tell me what you believe about the purpose of Adam and Eve's creation? Do you believe that they existed in heaven before being created from the dust on earth?

Yes Adam and Eve and all of us lived with God before the foundations of the Earth were laid. At that time we were spirits. When we come to Earth we gain bodies. When we die our spirits leave our bodies and once again live as spirits, awaiting the resurrection.

Was Jesus then "the son of God" or was he just a good human who came from heaven to fulfil a role or purpose?
In what sense is he a savior?

He was indeed the Son of God. Like I said his birth was miraculous. He had no Earthly father. God caused Mary to be pregnant therefore he is legitimately the Son of God. He is also our Elder Brother, being the first born of God in the pre-existence. Jesus' rise to power started in the pre-existence. Jesus was not just without fault here on Earth, he was also without fault in the pre-existence, from the time he was born as a spirit Child of God. He is eternally The Sinless One. This quality that he had is what qualified him to be the Saviour of the rest of God's children. He was therefore chosen in the pre-existence to fulfill the mission he had here on Earth.

Do you believe that God's power was displayed after the death of the apostles? Do you believe that miracles happen today like they did in the first centruy?

Yes I believe God's power has always attended faith, where ever it has been found. Note also that when Judas died, an apostle was called to replace him. Paul was also called to apostleship though he never walked with Christ. It may be that he was also called to replace an apostle who had died. There is no evidence in the bible that God could not have called more apostles to replace those who died. By my estimation, the only reason God stopped to call apostles was because people were rejecting them: not just people outside the church (that is to be expected) but people within the church were becoming corrupt. That is why apostles ceased, the keys of the kingdom of heaven withdrawn, and signs and wonders also ceased among them. Obviously there were still faithful individuals here and there and I'm sure God did not forsake them. But there were not enough faithful people to keep a whole church together.

Miracles still happen today. God's power is shown forth often. The problem though is when we look at the bible we always get a sense the miracles were happening every other day. This is because the bible is a 1000 page book covering thousands of years of human history among millions of people. So it is more like a highlights real than an actual depiction of daily life was like. But whenever there is an extraordinary need and extraordinary faith, there will be miracles.

This is true, but what was the purpose of these demonstrations of God's power in Bible times, and why do we not see that same power demonstrated today, in your opinion?

To Quote a passage from the Book of Mormon written by Mormon himself in Mormon 9:

19 And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.

20 And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.

21 Behold, I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him; and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth.​

To answer your last question about the scripture in Corinthians 13. Firstly Paul did not say when these would cease, simply that they would. Secondly I too believe there will come a time when these signs and wonders will cease. This will be in the millennium. Then every body will know God as he will be here personally on the Earth. And there will be no need to people to prophesy to one another. There will be no death, so no one will need to be raised from the dead. There will be no sickness so there will be no need for healing. And so forth. But faith hope and charity will always be relevant no matter the circumstances. That is why they are the greatest of the gifts of God.

​

 

[JayJayDee]

Yes Adam and Eve and all of us lived with God before the foundations of the Earth were laid. At that time we were spirits. When we come to Earth we gain bodies. When we die our spirits leave our bodies and once again live as spirits, awaiting the resurrection.



He was indeed the Son of God. Like I said his birth was miraculous. He had no Earthly father. God caused Mary to be pregnant therefore he is legitimately the Son of God. He is also our Elder Brother, being the first born of God in the pre-existence. Jesus' rise to power started in the pre-existence. Jesus was not just without fault here on Earth, he was also without fault in the pre-existence, from the time he was born as a spirit Child of God. He is eternally The Sinless One. This quality that he had is what qualified him to be the Saviour of the rest of God's children. He was therefore chosen in the pre-existence to fulfill the mission he had here on Earth.



Yes I believe God's power has always attended faith, where ever it has been found. Note also that when Judas died, an apostle was called to replace him. Paul was also called to apostleship though he never walked with Christ. It may be that he was also called to replace an apostle who had died. There is no evidence in the bible that God could not have called more apostles to replace those who died. By my estimation, the only reason God stopped to call apostles was because people were rejecting them: not just people outside the church (that is to be expected) but people within the church were becoming corrupt. That is why apostles ceased, the keys of the kingdom of heaven withdrawn, and signs and wonders also ceased among them. Obviously there were still faithful individuals here and there and I'm sure God did not forsake them. But there were not enough faithful people to keep a whole church together.

Miracles still happen today. God's power is shown forth often. The problem though is when we look at the bible we always get a sense the miracles were happening every other day. This is because the bible is a 1000 page book covering thousands of years of human history among millions of people. So it is more like a highlights real than an actual depiction of daily life was like. But whenever there is an extraordinary need and extraordinary faith, there will be miracles.



To Quote a passage from the Book of Mormon written by Mormon himself in Mormon 9:

19 And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.

20 And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.

21 Behold, I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him; and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth.​

To answer your last question about the scripture in Corinthians 13. Firstly Paul did not say when these would cease, simply that they would. Secondly I too believe there will come a time when these signs and wonders will cease. This will be in the millennium. Then every body will know God as he will be here personally on the Earth. And there will be no need to people to prophesy to one another. There will be no death, so no one will need to be raised from the dead. There will be no sickness so there will be no need for healing. And so forth. But faith hope and charity will always be relevant no matter the circumstances. That is why they are the greatest of the gifts of God.

​

Thank you for your reply. Just curious about the first part with Adam and his wife being spirits in heaven before being created on earth. This is something that is only in the BoM, is it not? I cannot find this belief in the Bible.

Can you give me a reason why spirits need to come to earth to gain bodies if they are just going to return there? What does this do for them? And what is the resurrection according to LDS belief?

 

[Thanda]

Thank you for your reply. Just curious about the first part with Adam and his wife being spirits in heaven before being created on earth. This is something that is only in the BoM, is it not? I cannot find this belief in the Bible.

This belief is not clearly in the Bible. If I gave you scriptures (e.g. Jeremiah 1:5) in support of it I'm sure you would find alternative explanations for them. Most important is that these have been revealed in the last days by God's prophets.

I have something to say about revelation. Most people take the Bible to God's word upon which they will base their lives. This is okay. But I think sometimes people miss can't see the forest for the trees. The Bible is a book about how God reveals himself to man. It is full of people who spoke to God and received revelations. It is by that process that we have the Bible today. Therefore the greatest lesson the Bible teaches us is that God lives and speaks. And he speaks generation after generation with all kinds of people (Job was not an Israelite). Why is it then that some people today believe the Bible is the end of God's word when the Bible itself testifies that God's word and work never cease? I find it hard to understand. Indeed this seems to be the situation Jesus was faced with when he came on Earth. The Pharisees and Saduccees were son hung up on what was written that they forgot seek revelation from God. And when Jesus came speaking and did not constantly refer to scripture, but instead spoke as one sent by God it seemed to confuse them. But look now at the Bible and at all the prophets from the beginning. Who among them went around carrying scriptures when they preached the gospel? Very few if any. Most if not all testified with their mouth that God had revealed the truth to them by revelation.

It is good to study the scriptures, don't get me wrong. But it is far better to get to know the Person behind the book and to become an expert in Him. John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom though hast sent."

 

[Thanda]

Can you give me a reason why spirits need to come to earth to gain bodies if they are just going to return there? What does this do for them? And what is the resurrection according to LDS belief?

Our potential is to become like God. That is why, unlike other creatures, we are called his children. God has a glorified and perfected body of flesh and bone (not flesh and blood). As a result a natural part of our progression included the need to gain a body. But prior to receiving immortal bodies a time of testing was required in order to establish what type of bodies we would obtain and what type of reward we would get. Therefore it was necessary that we first receive "testing bodies" which would be subject to disease decay and death before we receive our permanent bodies after the resurrection.

In the resurrection we receive our spirits (which contain our consciousness) and our bodies reunite. The exact type of bodies we receive will depend on the type of reward we have prepared ourselves for. 1 Corinthians 15:

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:​

The exact role these physical bodies play has not been made known to the church generally (I'm sure one could receive personal revelation on the matter). It appears however that it plays an important function as demonstrated by the demons Jesus once cast out. When Jesus told them leave the body of the man they asked if he could let them possess the bodies of pigs. So it seems having a body is so beneficial that those without them don't mind even if the body is that of a pig. The resurrection of Christ also gives us an indication of it's importance. Jesus did not return to the father until after he received his perfected body. He told explicitly told his disciple that he was not a spirit. He could have appeared to them as a spirit if he wished (Gabriel, who appeared to Mary, was a spirit). But instead he waited until he received his body to do so.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Thanda...and other Mormon forum members: I've been busy on other threads and other forums. Sorry, that I can't discuss things as often as I'd like.

Thanda: I read in #102 that LDSs believe that miracles and signs ceased with the early church apostles. Some Protestants still believe this today. However, I personally don't believe that miracles and signs ceased in the early church. I believe that God continued doing miracles. Catholics have records of miracles continuing, at holy sites, throughout the history of the Catholic church. And we have the story of Joan of Ark too, with her visions and communications. What do LDSs say in regards to the Catholic evidence? I can provide some stories if you need to see sources.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

This belief is not clearly in the Bible. If I gave you scriptures (e.g. Jeremiah 1:5) in support of it I'm sure you would find alternative explanations for them. Most important is that these have been revealed in the last days by God's prophets.

I have something to say about revelation. Most people take the Bible to God's word upon which they will base their lives. This is okay. But I think sometimes people miss can't see the forest for the trees. The Bible is a book about how God reveals himself to man. It is full of people who spoke to God and received revelations. It is by that process that we have the Bible today. Therefore the greatest lesson the Bible teaches us is that God lives and speaks. And he speaks generation after generation with all kinds of people (Job was not an Israelite). Why is it then that some people today believe the Bible is the end of God's word when the Bible itself testifies that God's word and work never cease? I find it hard to understand. Indeed this seems to be the situation Jesus was faced with when he came on Earth. The Pharisees and Saduccees were son hung up on what was written that they forgot seek revelation from God. And when Jesus came speaking and did not constantly refer to scripture, but instead spoke as one sent by God it seemed to confuse them. But look now at the Bible and at all the prophets from the beginning. Who among them went around carrying scriptures when they preached the gospel? Very few if any. Most if not all testified with their mouth that God had revealed the truth to them by revelation.

It is good to study the scriptures, don't get me wrong. But it is far better to get to know the Person behind the book and to become an expert in Him. John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom though hast sent."

I can see clearly where you are coming from. Yes, God does still reveal himself today....and he has never stopped doing so but not via books. The Bible was closed as a fixed canon to stop heresy seeping in. Mainstream Christians believe that God will never bring another book after Revelation. Many religions claim to have prophets who got books from God. Muhammad says he received an entire book from God, via an angel, called the Quran. JS, likewise, states that he was given the BOM too. Chris Kline received 4000 pages of words from automatic writing, dictation, and conversation with a voice who claimed it was God. It was later found to be a demon impersonating God (see A Brilliant Deception by Chris Kline). There are many others too who have also been given whole books. No offence, but mainstream Christians believe that all these books that have appeared after John's Revelation, have been written by demons. I not saying that in any aggressive way....that is just common mainstream Christian teaching.

 

[Thanda]

I can see clearly where you are coming from. Yes, God does still reveal himself today....and he has never stopped doing so but not via books. The Bible was closed as a fixed canon to stop heresy seeping in. Mainstream Christians believe that God will never bring another book after Revelation. Many religions claim to have prophets who got books from God. Muhammad says he received an entire book from God, via an angel, called the Quran. JS, likewise, states that he was given the BOM too. Chris Kline received 4000 pages of words from automatic writing, dictation, and conversation with a voice who claimed it was God. It was later found to be a demon impersonating God (see A Brilliant Deception by Chris Kline). There are many others too who have also been given whole books. No offence, but mainstream Christians believe that all these books that have appeared after John's Revelation, have been written by demons. I not saying that in any aggressive way....that is just common mainstream Christian teaching.

Yes I know this is what many Christians believe. But I believe in God. And whatever God speaks to man is the word of God whether it was spoken now or a thousand yes ago. His word does not loose authority just because it is recent.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Yes I know this is what many Christians believe. But I believe in God. And whatever God speaks to man is the word of God whether it was spoken now or a thousand yes ago. His word does not loose authority just because it is recent.

The problem is that Satan can come as an angel of light and pretend he is God and give a message. Sometimes it is very difficult to know whether it is actually God that is giving the message. For Chris Kline, she really believed it was God. The voice she was communicating with said it was God. Most people wouldn't argue with that. She accepted it as the truth. The 4000 pages she got were edited and put in book form and she had the title of the book as "God is My Father". It's really scary when I read Chris Kline's autobiography "A Brilliant Deception". But it could have happened to anyone. I have to ask myself "Why would God allow a demon to impersonate him and come with a book?". But Jesus warned us that this type of thing would happen....that many would come in my name....

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Yes I know this is what many Christians believe. But I believe in God. And whatever God speaks to man is the word of God whether it was spoken now or a thousand yes ago. His word does not loose authority just because it is recent.

The problem is that Satan can come as an angel of light and pretend he is God and give a message. Sometimes it is very difficult to know whether it is actually God that is giving the message. For Chris Kline, she really believed it was God. The voice she was communicating with said it was God. Most people wouldn't argue with that. She accepted it as the truth. The 4000 pages she got were edited and put in book form and she had the title of the book as "God is My Father". It's really scary when I read Chris Kline's autobiography "A Brilliant Deception". But it could have happened to anyone. I have to ask myself "Why would God allow a demon to impersonate him and come with a book?". But Jesus warned us that this type of thing would happen....that many would come in my name....

 

[Thanda]

The problem is that Satan can come as an angel of light and pretend he is God and give a message. Sometimes it is very difficult to know whether it is actually God that is giving the message. For Chris Kline, she really believed it was God. The voice she was communicating with said it was God. Most people wouldn't argue with that. She accepted it as the truth. The 4000 pages she got were edited and put in book form and she had the title of the book as "God is My Father". It's really scary when I read Chris Kline's autobiography "A Brilliant Deception". But it could have happened to anyone. I have to ask myself "Why would God allow a demon to impersonate him and come with a book?". But Jesus warned us that this type of thing would happen....that many would come in my name....

The devil has been coming as an Angel of light since the days of Adam (take Cain for example) - it is not a recent trick that he has learnt. The formula for thwarting the devil is to live close to the Lord, pray always and keep his commandment. Satan cannot come into a holy place. If you keep yourself holy by being close to God and keeping his commandments then the devil will have no power to deceive you. If I'm not mistaken that Chris Kline was the one who was a drug addict wasn't she?

If any man comes before you and says he has received a revelation from God you are not expected to take their revelation at face value. It is your responsibility to ask God for confirmation.

Even the Bible itself. Each person must gain their own testimony from God that it is the word of God. They should not assume that it is.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

The devil has been coming as an Angel of light since the days of Adam (take Cain for example) - it is not a recent trick that he has learnt. The formula for thwarting the devil is to live close to the Lord, pray always and keep his commandment. Satan cannot come into a holy place. If you keep yourself holy by being close to God and keeping his commandments then the devil will have no power to deceive you. If I'm not mistaken that Chris Kline was the one who was a drug addict wasn't she?

If any man comes before you and says he has received a revelation from God you are not expected to take their revelation at face value. It is your responsibility to ask God for confirmation.

Even the Bible itself. Each person must gain their own testimony from God that it is the word of God. They should not assume that it is.

Thanda: Thank you for your time in responding to my post. I disagree with you about your statement "Satan cannot come into a holy place." Why? Because of the evidence:

1. In the story of Job, Satan entered Heaven and spoke to God about Job. Heaven is a holy place.

2. My father was a pastor for 10 years so this story is from direct experience. I saw my father attacked by a demon in a church when he was marrying someone. It happened again in the same church, in the same place when he was marrying another person. I did not see the demon but I saw what he did to my father and my father explained it as a demon attacking him. He was overcome and as he spoke, the words were sucked out of his mouth and he could not speak. The church was not ours but we rented it for weddings. As it happened twice, we never used that church again.

3. My wife and I just left our church due to demonic activity in our church building. The minister had been involved in consultation with witch doctors, and therefore had permitted demons to enter our church.

4. Chris Kline mentions on p.153 of her book, A Brilliant Deception, that she was visiting a church and "Then the pastor began to preach. His sermon was on Jesus' story of the lost coin...But, without warning, he began to rant and rave. His eyes rolled around in their sockets and he foamed at the mouth. I sat stunned..." This experience happened after she became a Christian.

5. Sadhu Sundar Singh, a famous Christian also had an experience where a man appeared in his holy retreat cave. Here is what he says: "The Sadhu, the visitor declared, was the man all India was looking for. He had proved that he could draw to himself men of every faith. He showed that there was a measure of truth in every religion. He was the first to discover that many roads led to God. The Emperor Akbar had built a temple of all religions 400 years earlier, and the founder of Sundar's own religion [he had been a Silk before he found Christ], Guru Nanak of the Silks, had found truth among Hindus and Muslims. Now was the time for another prophet, a guru who would bring all of India to his feet. There were errors to be purged from all religions, but there was truth to be discovered too. What was needed was a teacher who could unite the best, discarding the unworthy. Jesus, in the new religion, would be the greatest revelation of God the world had known, though Hinduism, Islam and Buddhism would not be discredited...and the Sadhu, Sundar Singh, would be His prophet. He would go down in history as a prophet greater than Guru Nanak, greater than Mohammad, greater than....Sundar looked at the face of the noble person before him, saw the glittering mockery in his eyes, and knew him for the tempter, the Evil One." (p.122 The Story of Sadhu Sundar Singh by Cyril J. Davey)

In the cases above, demons were still able to enter holy places even when the people were righteous. My father was a holy man while he was a pastor.

Yes, it is true that Chris Kline had been a drug addict and stripper before she became a Christian.

God bless.

 

[Thanda]

Thanda: Thank you for your time in responding to my post. I disagree with you about your statement "Satan cannot come into a holy place." Why? Because of the evidence:

1. In the story of Job, Satan entered Heaven and spoke to God about Job. Heaven is a holy place.

2. My father was a pastor for 10 years so this story is from direct experience. I saw my father attacked by a demon in a church when he was marrying someone. It happened again in the same church, in the same place when he was marrying another person. I did not see the demon but I saw what he did to my father and my father explained it as a demon attacking him. He was overcome and as he spoke, the words were sucked out of his mouth and he could not speak. The church was not ours but we rented it for weddings. As it happened twice, we never used that church again.

3. My wife and I just left our church due to demonic activity in our church building. The minister had been involved in consultation with witch doctors, and therefore had permitted demons to enter our church.

4. Chris Kline mentions on p.153 of her book, A Brilliant Deception, that she was visiting a church and "Then the pastor began to preach. His sermon was on Jesus' story of the lost coin...But, without warning, he began to rant and rave. His eyes rolled around in their sockets and he foamed at the mouth. I sat stunned..." This experience happened after she became a Christian.

5. Sadhu Sundar Singh, a famous Christian also had an experience where a man appeared in his holy retreat cave. Here is what he says: "The Sadhu, the visitor declared, was the man all India was looking for. He had proved that he could draw to himself men of every faith. He showed that there was a measure of truth in every religion. He was the first to discover that many roads led to God. The Emperor Akbar had built a temple of all religions 400 years earlier, and the founder of Sundar's own religion [he had been a Silk before he found Christ], Guru Nanak of the Silks, had found truth among Hindus and Muslims. Now was the time for another prophet, a guru who would bring all of India to his feet. There were errors to be purged from all religions, but there was truth to be discovered too. What was needed was a teacher who could unite the best, discarding the unworthy. Jesus, in the new religion, would be the greatest revelation of God the world had known, though Hinduism, Islam and Buddhism would not be discredited...and the Sadhu, Sundar Singh, would be His prophet. He would go down in history as a prophet greater than Guru Nanak, greater than Mohammad, greater than....Sundar looked at the face of the noble person before him, saw the glittering mockery in his eyes, and knew him for the tempter, the Evil One." (p.122 The Story of Sadhu Sundar Singh by Cyril J. Davey)

In the cases above, demons were still able to enter holy places even when the people were righteous. My father was a holy man while he was a pastor.

Yes, it is true that Chris Kline had been a drug addict and stripper before she became a Christian.

God bless.

I will not argue about much. Let it suffice for me to say that the body is a temple of God. If you keep God's commandments you are keeping your temple holy and the devil will not be able to come and deceive you. Joseph Smith was also attacked by the devil when he went to pray to God. Being attacked by the devil is not the same as being deceived by him. When the devil attacks you it is a sign that he fears you. But if he can talk to you calmly then it is a sign that he believes he can deceive you. Anybody who has experienced God and who has God's spirit inside them will be able to tell the difference between the spirit of the devil and the spirit of God.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

I will not argue about much. Let it suffice for me to say that the body is a temple of God. If you keep God's commandments you are keeping your temple holy and the devil will not be able to come and deceive you. Joseph Smith was also attacked by the devil when he went to pray to God. Being attacked by the devil is not the same as being deceived by him. When the devil attacks you it is a sign that he fears you. But if he can talk to you calmly then it is a sign that he believes he can deceive you. Anybody who has experienced God and who has God's spirit inside them will be able to tell the difference between the spirit of the devil and the spirit of God.

I like what you have written here....so that brings me on to the next questions....Before the first vision, JS was not a member of any church because he was confused about which denomination was correct. For me, this is a fair judgement for JS to make....but the ultimate questions are.....At the point of his first vision was he saved? (meaning: before he walked into the woods to pray) Had he repented to the Lord Jesus and asked forgiveness for his past sins?....and was he living a holy life? These are extremely important questions.