I see no value in atheism

[Curious George]

Belief, in this context, is defined as "trust, faith, or confidence that something exists". None of these options (trust, faith, or confidence) require certainty.

The opposite of faith is doubt, so even if someone has some doubt they are not a theist?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes, well how can we lack belief without dealing with degrees of certainty or possibilities?

Again, I assume you can't. But that's irrelevant to the question of belief vs. lack of belief. It doesn't matter how much certainty you possess or whether you consider other possibilities - all that is required to be a theist is belief, and all that is required to be an atheist is a lack of that belief.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The opposite of faith is doubt, so even if someone has some doubt they are not a theist?

Faith is accepting something despite a lack of evidence, or in spite of evidence to the contrary. You can still believe something - even on faith - and possess doubt about it. The opposite of faith isn't doubt. If anything can be said to be the opposite of faith it's skepticism (although I'm not sure - can anyone think of a better opposite to faith?).

 

[Curious George]

Again, I assume you can't. But that's irrelevant to the question of belief vs. lack of belief. It doesn't matter how much certainty you possess or whether you consider other possibilities - all that is required to be a theist is belief, and all that is required to be an atheist is a lack of that belief.

Yes but if degree of certainty is removed and I ask you what belief is you say belief is accepting, if I ask you what accepting is you say belief....

So then I ask you how we are supposed to deal with belief and acceptance without degrees of certainty or possibilities and you say we can't,

But when I ask a question about degrees of certainty you say we are not talking about that (which we need to talk about lack of acceptance or belief something is not true)

 

[Curious George]

Faith is accepting something despite a lack of evidence, or in spite of evidence to the contrary. You can still believe something - even on faith - and possess doubt about it. The opposite of faith isn't doubt. If anything can be said to be the opposite of faith it's skepticism (although I'm not sure - can anyone think of a better opposite to faith?).

Yes, doubt. Doubt is to not acceptance as faith is to acceptance.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes but if degree of certainty is removed and I ask you what belief is you say belief is accepting, if I ask you what accepting is you say belief....

In the context of this discussion "accepting" a belief means the same as "believing" it. Certainty has nothing to do with it.

So then I ask you how we are supposed to deal with belief and acceptance without degrees of certainty or possibilities and you say we can't,

But when I ask a question about degrees of certainty you say we are not talking about that (which we need to talk about lack of acceptance or belief something is not true)

No we don't. We are discussing the definitions of atheism and theism as defined by belief in God or lack of belief in God. These definitions deal exclusively with belief, and degrees of certainty are irrelevant. A person who believes there is a God but isn't certain is still a theist. A person who believes there is a God and is absolutely certain there is a God is still a theist. A person who believes in God, but whose belief is only hanging by a thread, is still a theist. A person who believes in God but accepts that they have no certainty whatsoever and accepts God's existence as a matter of faith is still a theist.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes, doubt. Doubt is to not acceptance as faith is to acceptance.

I just explained that doubt is NOT the opposite of faith. You can still hold faith in a belief while possessing doubt. Faith is not an absence of doubt, it is holding a belief despite a lack of evidence or in spite of evidence to the contrary.

 

[Typist]

The original poster said they saw no value in atheism. And this...

The question of this discussion is the meaning of the term atheism and who can accurately be classified as an atheist.

Could be one of the reasons why.

 

[Curious George]

I just explained that doubt is NOT the opposite of faith. You can still hold faith in a belief while possessing doubt. Faith is not an absence of doubt, it is holding a belief despite a lack of evidence or in spite of evidence to the contrary.

Lol you can still hold faith in a belief in spite of skepticism too, but that didn't stop you from suggesting skepticism was an opposite.

 

[Curious George]

In the context of this discussion "accepting" a belief means the same as "believing" it. Certainty has nothing to do with it.


No we don't. We are discussing the definitions of atheism and theism as defined by belief in God or lack of belief in God. These definitions deal exclusively with belief, and degrees of certainty are irrelevant. A person who believes there is a God but isn't certain is still a theist. A person who believes there is a God and is absolutely certain there is a God is still a theist. A person who believes in God, but whose belief is only hanging by a thread, is still a theist. A person who believes in God but accepts that they have no certainty whatsoever and accepts God's existence as a matter of faith is still a theist.

Yes if atheism is a lack of belief and degrees of certainty or possibilities are necessary to understand "lack of belief" as opposed to complete absence of belief, then they are "relevant" not irrelevant.

 

[Typist]

An atheist is simply any person who is not a theist.

In the context of forums, an atheist appears to be 1) a faith based ideologist 2) who is not sophisticated enough to know they are a faith based ideologist, and 3) so they attempt to distract everyone from challenging them by claiming they have no beliefs (except of course they are always right!) and 4) engaging in an endless series of pointless little definitional dancing games of no significance whatsoever, 5) which is then labeled razor sharp reasoning, 6) in order to maintain the primary dogma of this faith, the eternal repetition of a fantasy superiority over theists.

 

[Willamena]

Is irrelevant. We're talking about whether or not you BELIEVE it is true. The definitions of atheism and theism deal with beliefs, not facts.

"To believe" means that, TO YOU IT IS TRUE. To talk about whether a person is believing is to switch subjects.

 

[McBell]

You are denying that atheists believe that God does not exist...

Bold faced lie

as if by changing the words around changes the reality. So childish...

Asif ignoring the definitions of words you dislike make the ignored definitions go away.
Yes, childish indeed.

By saying that you do not believe in God does not change the fact that you are in belief mode...

Only because you cannot get yourself out of false dichotomy mode.

your mind could not be empty of the memory of rejecting God, as you would not then be an atheist....

That you have to ignore definitions of the word atheist to even make this claim reveals much more about you than it ever will about me.

the continuance of that memory is a belief....

Wishful thinking.

all atheists believe in the rejection of God....

take your pick:

1. huge steaming pile of bull ****
2. Bold empty claim
3. wishful thinking
4. bold faced lie
5. all of the above

 

[McBell]

Such is true, then getting even deeper, there is no such thing as a true atheist, it is the same delusion and imagination that an atheist opposes.

wow.
Another one who cannot comprehend the difference.

So you think that removing a not makes it say what you want it to say?
Wonder why you feel the need to remove the not in first place?

I do not believe god exists.
I also do not believe god does not exist.

Your inability to comprehend that fact is your problem, not mine.

 

[Unification]

wow.
Another one who cannot comprehend the difference.

So you think that removing a not makes it say what you want it to say?
Wonder why you feel the need to remove the not in first place?

I do not believe god exists.
I also do not believe god does not exist.

Your inability to comprehend that fact is your problem, not mine.

Provide evidence that atheism exists.

I comprehend the difference fine.

 

[leibowde84]

I didn't reference the phrase as definition, merely as an example.

I would say that if their belief is "lacking", as long as it is still present, they would accurately be classified as a theist.

 

[leibowde84]

Tea pots, orbiting Mars.

huh? Now I am more confused.

 

[leibowde84]

The opposite of faith is doubt, so even if someone has some doubt they are not a theist?

No, even if someone has some doubt they ARE still a theist. They just have to believe in the existence of God. They don't have to be certain.

 

[leibowde84]

The original poster said they saw no value in atheism. And this...



Could be one of the reasons why.

What comment is this in response to?

 

[leibowde84]

The opposite of faith is doubt, so even if someone has some doubt they are not a theist?

The opposite of "faith" is not "doubt", by the way. The opposite of "faith" is "certainty". It is clear because one can have faith and doubt simultaneously.