I was wrong - and that makes me angry.

[Heyo]

And during all that traffic today, I missed posting a 20,000th post OP, so belatedly ...

I was too optimistic. While I was prepared for a Trump win - the polls were close enough - I didn't expect such a decisive win.
But what's more is that it rattles at my Menschenbild. I know that people are lazy, fearful and dumb, but I believe that most people are good, most of the time.
Are they? While most on the left excuse the voters with being misled by the media and simply too dumb to know what they were doing, I question that position. And members on the right agree with me, they deliberately voted for Trump, insisting they knew what they were doing. Were they?

I'm torn between my positive Menschenbild and the fact that those with a negative Menschenbild had the better hypothesis, i.e. predicted the outcome of the election better.

What do you think?

 

[an anarchist]

I tried to look up

Menschenbild

but everything is in German so I’ll answer the thread based off of the poll question and OP…

People are more stupid than evil I voted. But I do that out of pity for stupid people.

In actuality, stupidity is evil in my opinion. They are one and the same

 

[an anarchist]

People are statists because they are too stupid to break free from the programming. Statism is evil. Therefore the stupid people are evil.

IN MY OPINION.

 

[Secret Chief]

And during all that traffic today, I missed posting a 20,000th post OP, so belatedly ...

I was too optimistic. While I was prepared for a Trump win - the polls were close enough - I didn't expect such a decisive win.
But what's more is that it rattles at my Menschenbild. I know that people are lazy, fearful and dumb, but I believe that most people are good, most of the time.
Are they? While most on the left excuse the voters with being misled by the media and simply too dumb to know what they were doing, I question that position. And members on the right agree with me, they deliberately voted for Trump, insisting they knew what they were doing. Were they?

I'm torn between my positive Menschenbild and the fact that those with a negative Menschenbild had the better hypothesis, i.e. predicted the outcome of the election better.

What do you think?

I don't really believe in "evil" so couldn't really vote. Them's my thoughts.

 

[Heyo]

I tried to look up [Menschenbild]

but everything is in German so I’ll answer the thread based off of the poll question and OP…

I translated "Menschenbild" in the poll question, but there isn't really a translation. Menschenbild is a philosophical concept that is only roughly described by "picture of man" or "image of man". It's how you see humans in general. I think English should adopt the word like it has adopted "Weltanschauung" (which wasn't really necessary as "world view" captures it quite well).

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

And during all that traffic today, I missed posting a 20,000th post OP, so belatedly ...

I was too optimistic. While I was prepared for a Trump win - the polls were close enough - I didn't expect such a decisive win.
But what's more is that it rattles at my Menschenbild. I know that people are lazy, fearful and dumb, but I believe that most people are good, most of the time.
Are they? While most on the left excuse the voters with being misled by the media and simply too dumb to know what they were doing, I question that position. And members on the right agree with me, they deliberately voted for Trump, insisting they knew what they were doing. Were they?

I'm torn between my positive Menschenbild and the fact that those with a negative Menschenbild had the better hypothesis, i.e. predicted the outcome of the election better.

What do you think?

I have to say, I do not think a lot of those who voted for Trump were well-informed -- in fact, I think in many ways they were quite badly informed.

Just in the last 3 days, I have seen nearly a dozen conversations with people who were convinced, by what Trump said and didn't say (and the right-wing media did not correct) finally understanding that tariffs, if Trump applies them, will make their products more expensive. Two t-shirt vendors were totally shocked when they finally understood that America cannot levy taxes on another country. "You mean China isn't paying the tariffs?" "No, you are -- and then you're going to have to pass that on to your customers, or take the loss yourself." "OMG, how do I change my vote?!?"

For those salivating at the delicious idea of deporting 11 million (or however many) of the hated "illegals," they are going to discover that there is just no effing logistical way this can be done, or paid for.

For those who hate inflation so much, they're going to find out that Trump has no mechanism by which to stop it in tracks -- and more importantly, he has no way to reduce prices of goods and services to what they were at the end of his magical presidency.

And the MAGAs and Project 2025ers aren't going to let go of their social re-engineering, and this is going to have unpleasant and unexpected effects on many families.

And all of this is the result of voting-while-uninformed, which ought perhaps to be treated like DUI.

 

[Estro Felino]

My congratulations for your 20,000 posts.

One question, and please, answer it.

Why do you think that the Democratic Party didn't commit any mistake?
I mean...don't you ever wonder that the dems, with their obsessive warlike propaganda committed a political suicide?

After all...many pro-peace democrat leaders like Gabbard left the Democratic Party and convinced many voters that the Democratic Party has been taken over by a group of enraged warmongers.

 

[Stevicus]

And during all that traffic today, I missed posting a 20,000th post OP, so belatedly ...

I was too optimistic. While I was prepared for a Trump win - the polls were close enough - I didn't expect such a decisive win.
But what's more is that it rattles at my Menschenbild. I know that people are lazy, fearful and dumb, but I believe that most people are good, most of the time.
Are they? While most on the left excuse the voters with being misled by the media and simply too dumb to know what they were doing, I question that position. And members on the right agree with me, they deliberately voted for Trump, insisting they knew what they were doing. Were they?

I'm torn between my positive Menschenbild and the fact that those with a negative Menschenbild had the better hypothesis, i.e. predicted the outcome of the election better.

What do you think?

I don't know if this says anything about the overall status of humanity as a species - whether stupid, evil, or whatever.

I don't think I would think of humans as "stupid," but perhaps "foolish" or "easily led" might be more accurate.

I would also mention that humans are a social species, and how we interact with each other can sometimes impact the outcome of those interactions. Sometimes, they're more intangible and difficult to measure quantitatively. It's the old question of "what we say" versus "how we say it."

That's also a key thing I've noticed since "what we say" may not always be evaluated by the actual content of the words being spoken. So, even speech itself can't be fully trusted, since there's always a chance they could be considered "code words" or "dog whistles" or "virtue signaling" of whatever else it might be called.

People feel inhibited from talking straight to each other or on a truly heart-to-heart, human-to-human basis. Most people discuss politics as if they all feel an obligation to act like lawyers, presenting their arguments and evidence, along with a few insulting barbs, sanctimony, and melodrama which lawyers and politicians are famous for. Lawyers and politicians are our role models, for better or worse.

The trouble with that, in my opinion, is that oftentimes, whatever is "legal" or "illegal" doesn't always align with "evil" or "stupid." Think of it: A man with some 80+ criminal charges against him somehow manages to elude it all and still get elected, and it's all considered "legal." That's the system we have, and maybe there is a deeper problem within humanity regarding how we collectively organize our societies, the structures and systems we use, and the laws we enact.

I don't know if that makes us evil or stupid, but history shows that on the whole, the whole history of how humans govern themselves has been a constant work in progress based on millennia of trial and error. We've had periods of great progress and enlightenment, and periods of setbacks. We're an imperfect species and we create imperfect systems.

Humans are basically smart animals, which is why we're the most dangerous animal at all - to ourselves as much as others in the animal kingdom. Humans act as other animals would act if they could. That's not evil, but it's not exactly good either. It's just natural and animalistic.

 

[Estro Felino]

As a Christian I believe in free will.
So there are evil people who use their free will to commit grave sins...like wars and genocides.

 

[Heyo]

My congratulations for your 20,000 posts.

One question, and please, answer it.

Why do you think that the Democratic Party didn't commit any mistake?

I didn't go into mistakes the parties made, and I definitely didn't say the Democratic didn't make mistakes. They obviously did, as they lost. What these mistakes were can only be speculated about as the exit polls only asked those who voted, and the biggest problem was that people didn't vote.
I also don't know if that is because of malice, stupidity or simply laziness.

 

[esmith]

I have to say, I do not think a lot of those who voted for Trump were well-informed -- in fact, I think in many ways they were quite badly informed.

I consider myself fairly informed about the two candidates, looked at what one was offering and the other one flat said they would have done nothing different than the current administration did. Given that their was only one logical choice in my mind and the country agreed. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I consider myself fairly informed about the two candidates, looked at what one was offering and the other one flat said they would have done nothing different than the current administration did. Given that their was only one logical choice in my mind and the country agreed. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I shall probably not live long enough to see the histories written of both Trump's and Biden's administrations, but when you do, please remember me. You will find that in the light of hindsight, which is always 20-20, the Biden will be rated far above Trump.

The 2024 edition of the Presidential Greatness Project Expert Survey has Biden in 14th place, just ahead of Woodrow Wilson and Ronald Reagan. Trump comes in 45th, behind fellow impeachee Andrew Johnson and James Buchanan, the perennial cellar-dweller in such ratings due to his pre-Civil War leadership. https://www.npr.org/2024/02/19/1232447088/historians-presidents-survey-trump-last-biden-14th​

 

[Revoltingest]

Evil vs stupidity....I say that it's a
partnership that seesaws back & forth.

 

[Revoltingest]

And during all that traffic today, I missed posting a 20,000th post OP, so belatedly ...

I was too optimistic. While I was prepared for a Trump win - the polls were close enough - I didn't expect such a decisive win.
But what's more is that it rattles at my Menschenbild. I know that people are lazy, fearful and dumb, but I believe that most people are good, most of the time.
Are they? While most on the left excuse the voters with being misled by the media and simply too dumb to know what they were doing, I question that position. And members on the right agree with me, they deliberately voted for Trump, insisting they knew what they were doing. Were they?

I'm torn between my positive Menschenbild and the fact that those with a negative Menschenbild had the better hypothesis, i.e. predicted the outcome of the election better.

What do you think?

I know Trump voters (many who aren't Maga).
Some are clueless about things like his attempted coup.
Others share his need for vengeance against illegals,
gays, trans, & liberals.
Stupidity & evil are brethren in his cult.

 

[esmith]

I shall probably not live long enough to see the histories written of both Trump's and Biden's administrations, but when you do, please remember me. You will find that in the light of hindsight, which is always 20-20, the Biden will be rated far above Trump.

The 2024 edition of the Presidential Greatness Project Expert Survey has Biden in 14th place, just ahead of Woodrow Wilson and Ronald Reagan. Trump comes in 45th, behind fellow impeachee Andrew Johnson and James Buchanan, the perennial cellar-dweller in such ratings due to his pre-Civil War leadership. https://www.npr.org/2024/02/19/1232447088/historians-presidents-survey-trump-last-biden-14th​

Well you know what opinions are like.

 

[Alien826]

To me, it's much more complicated than "evil or stupid"?

I have two close acquaintances, that is people I know well enough to speak of with some hope of being accurate, that support Trump. Each is both clever and stupid, loving and not so nice, at different times and on different subjects. One I got into politics with years ago and found that we differed strongly on the subject of Trump, enough to get angry at each other. After that we tacitly agreed never to mention the subject again, and over the years have become quite close friends. The other day she asked me why I seemed so depressed and the subject came up again with the same result. After a brief cooling off period we decided to go back to "no politics" and I have high hopes of the friendship continuing.

If I understood how two people that are both intelligent and knowledgeable, can be close friends yet get angry at each other over ONE subject, I might have some good advice to offer to the people of the USA as a whole. Not that anyone would listen of course.

 

[Yerda]

There's a blog post out somewhere there titled, "Almost no-one is evil, almost everything is broken". That sums up my feelings a lot of the time.

 

[F1fan]

And during all that traffic today, I missed posting a 20,000th post OP, so belatedly ...

I was too optimistic. While I was prepared for a Trump win - the polls were close enough - I didn't expect such a decisive win.
But what's more is that it rattles at my Menschenbild. I know that people are lazy, fearful and dumb, but I believe that most people are good, most of the time.
Are they? While most on the left excuse the voters with being misled by the media and simply too dumb to know what they were doing, I question that position. And members on the right agree with me, they deliberately voted for Trump, insisting they knew what they were doing. Were they?

I'm torn between my positive Menschenbild and the fact that those with a negative Menschenbild had the better hypothesis, i.e. predicted the outcome of the election better.

What do you think?

I think people are good in an emergency. I think they are lazy, bored, and complacent when times are good. I think the economy actually being pretty good and Biden being so effective that many did not bother voting. Some 15 million fewer voters showed up despite such a huge threat of the criminal candidate. I predict a lot of regret in coming years, both for how some voted for Trump and those who didn’t bother voting.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The following are direct quotes from Donald Trump, as to what he promises to deliver if elected:

"On day one I will launch the largest deportation program of criminals in the history of America."

Can somebody tell me how this will be accomplished? The estimates are that it would cost about $88 billion to deport just 1 million people in 1 year, if that was even logistically possible. How many new police will have to be hired to round up a million people? How many would have to be caught and processed every single day, including Sunday? (The answer 2,740.)​

"These companies don't make their products here in the USA then they will be forced to pay tariffs"

The US Government has no power to force an extranational company to pay anything to the US. If he is talking about American companies that buy products abroad for sale here, then yes, they can force them to pay tariffs. What will happen to the price of their goods then? And out of curiosity, what will happen to the prices of similar products made at home that will then cost less than those imports? Well, guess what -- they'll go up; perhaps not quite as high as the import, but higher than they are now. That contributes to inflation. (And it must be remembered that there are foreign goods in almost every product sold within the United States -- some which simply don't exist in the U.S. The increased cost of those components, due to tariffs, will be added to the cost of the finished goods sold in America.)​

"I will cut your energy prices in half within 12 months."

So are any of the companies that sell that energy private? Does that mean that the government will now be mandating pricing policies in the private sector? I thought that Republicans were all about the reverse, and smaller -- not larger -- government. ​

"For people that are using IVF which is fertilization, the government is going to pay for it, we will mandate your insurance company to pay for it."

Well, which is it? The government is going to pay, or insurance companies (private companies again) are going to have their pricing policies mandated? Will that involve them raising insurance premiums, do you suppose?​

"We will cut your taxes and inflation, slash your prices, raise your wages and bring thousands and thousands of factories back to America."

How many Americans are looking forward to adding another $9 trillion to the accumulated national debt, which those tax cuts are sure to do. What control does the government have over inflation, which is caused by many factors outside of government control? Slashing prices? The government is going to go out to every store in the nation and tell them, "We know you had to pay $xx.00 for your products, but we want you to sell them for 15% less?" You think that's going to work? Won't that causes massive losses likely to shut down many of those businesses? Oh, and then there are those companies (all private) that are going to be forced to raise wages for their employees -- but not build that cost into the price of their products? Oh, yeah, I can see that, can't you? ​

Now, anybody wonder why some of things voters were poorly informed when they voted for Trump and the Republicans?

 

[Revoltingest]

The following are direct quotes from Donald Trump, as to what he promises to deliver if elected:

"On day one i will launch the largest deportation program of criminals in the history of America."

Can somebody tell me how this will be accomplished? The estimates are that it would cost about $88 billion to deport just 1 million people in 1 year, if that was even logistically possible. How many new police will have to be hired to round up a million people? How many would have to be caught and processed every single day, including Sunday? (The answer 2,740.)​

"These companies don't make their products here in the USA then they will be forced to pay tariffs"

The US Government has no power to force an extranational company to pay anything to the US. If he is talking about American companies that buy products abroad for sale here, then yes, they can force them to pay tariffs. What will happen to the price of their goods then? And out of curiosity, what will happen to the prices of similar products made at home that will then cost less than those imports? Well, guess what -- they'll go up; perhaps not quite as high as the import, but higher than they are now. That contributes to inflation. (And it must be remembered that there are foreign goods in almost every product sold within the United States -- some which simply don't exist in the U.S. The increased cost of those components, due to tariffs, will be added to the cost of the finished goods sold in America.)​

"I will cut your energy prices in half within 12 months."

So are any of the companies that sell that energy private? Does that mean that the government will now be mandating pricing policies in the private sector? I thought that Republicans were all about the reverse, and smaller -- not larger -- government. ​

"For people that are using IVF which is fertilization, the government is going to pay for it, we will mandate your insurance company to pay for it."

Well, which is it? The government is going to pay, or insurance companies (private companies again) are going to have their pricing policies mandated? Will that involve them raising insurance premiums, do you suppose?​

"We will cut your taxes and inflation, slash your prices, raise your wages and bring thousands and thousands of factories back to America."

How many Americans are looking forward to adding another $9 trillion to the accumulated national debt, which those tax cuts are sure to do. What control does the government have over inflation, which is caused by many factors outside of government control? Slashing prices? The government is going to go out to every store in the nation and tell them, "We know you had to pay $xx.00 for your products, but we want you to sell them for 15% less?" You think that's going to work? Won't that causes massive losses likely to shut down many of those businesses? Oh, and then there are those companies (all private) that are going to be forced to raise wages for their employees -- but not build that cost into the price of their products? Oh, yeah, I can see that, can't you? ​

Now, anybody wonder why some of things voters were poorly informed when they voted for Trump and the Republicans?

Once again, I must tell the apocryphal story
of Trump's first marriage to Mavis Trump.
She divorced him the day after the ceremony
because he spent the entire wedding night
bragging about his sexual prowess, &
promising how great it was going to be.