I worry about the children of religious parents.

[suzy smith]

If I taught my children at an early age that the bogy man was going to come and take my children away and kill them slowly over an open fire if they were not good and the authorities found out about it my children could be taken from me and I could be arrested for child abuse. And rightly so.

I have a friend that is a roman catholic. We are good friends and I was delighted when after a lot of trying she finally became pregnant and gave birth to a little boy. But as soon as he could talk and begin to understand what his mother was telling him she started teaching him the beliefs of ‘the church’
What is so relevant to my point here is that the only reason she believed in the roman catholic church was because her mother was a roman catholic. No other reason whatsoever! And now he believes in hellfire too?
The reason why I feel so strongly about this is watching that lovely little boy myself as he grew up. Before my own eyes I watched him till he was seven years old and completely indoctrinated into the chinch without once being shown any logical reason for his beliefs.
I would never accuse her or any religious parent of child abuse……but sometimes I have to hold myself back a bit.

I teach my children to think for themselves. I am proud of that.

 

[bobhikes]

I wonder if she believes you are abusing your children. If she believes you have condemned to an afterlife of eternal punishment. I wonder if she believes you are to hard on them always forcing them to decide for themselves. I wonder if she prays for you and for your kids.

In reality its a matter of perspective both you kids should turn out fine as long as you are truly loving parents. Religion with love is as good as love without religion. She is your friend she must be doing something right.

 

[Pegg]

If I taught my children at an early age that the bogy man was going to come and take my children away and kill them slowly over an open fire if they were not good and the authorities found out about it my children could be taken from me and I could be arrested for child abuse. And rightly so.

I have a friend that is a roman catholic. We are good friends and I was delighted when after a lot of trying she finally became pregnant and gave birth to a little boy. But as soon as he could talk and begin to understand what his mother was telling him she started teaching him the beliefs of ‘the church’
What is so relevant to my point here is that the only reason she believed in the roman catholic church was because her mother was a roman catholic. No other reason whatsoever! And now he believes in hellfire too?
The reason why I feel so strongly about this is watching that lovely little boy myself as he grew up. Before my own eyes I watched him till he was seven years old and completely indoctrinated into the chinch without once being shown any logical reason for his beliefs.
I would never accuse her or any religious parent of child abuse……but sometimes I have to hold myself back a bit.

I teach my children to think for themselves. I am proud of that.

this isnt to say that I think her belief is right, because i dont, But imagine if her belief was right....then it would be very wrong of her not to teach her children that belief because if its true, then they should know about it.

In some way, parents who hold such beliefs are doing what they believe is best for their child. They dont want their child to end up in such a fate which is a loving gesture even if it is misguided.


All parents love their children and strive to do the best they can. And hopefully, when the child is grown old enough, he will search out these things for himself and come to a more accurate knowledge of truth.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I worry about the children of parents who indoctrinate them with exclusionary worldviews, period. Children need to be taught to make up their own minds, to think critically, question at all times, to not be afraid to stand up to authority and that no one and nothing has the "the truth" (whatever that is, if it exists). They need to be encouraged to be creative and to be individuals. Art needs to be encouraged as much as science.

 

[Quintessence]

If I taught my children at an early age that the bogy man was going to come and take my children away and kill them slowly over an open fire if they were not good and the authorities found out about it my children could be taken from me and I could be arrested for child abuse.

Really? Since when? Maybe things are different where you live, but legitimate cases of child abuse involve:

• Physical abuse (aka, non-accidental injury)
• Neglect (aka, failure to provide basic survival needs like food, water, clothing, and shelter)
• Sexual abuse (aka, child pornography among other things)
• Emotional abuse (aka, observable changes in behavior and cognition diagnosable as clinical mental illnesses)
• Parental substance abuse (aka, exposing child to drugs by parent's use)
• Abandonment (aka, leaving child unattended)

Unless you can demonstrate that the teaching causes the child to have a clinical mental illness, there would be no grounds to claim child abuse. I don't doubt that there are a handful of cases here and there where a parent grills a child so intensely in an idea like this that it causes lasting psychological trauma, but this would be an exceptional case.

The reason why I feel so strongly about this is watching that lovely little boy myself as he grew up. Before my own eyes I watched him till he was seven years old and completely indoctrinated into the chinch without once being shown any logical reason for his beliefs.

I would never accuse her or any religious parent of child abuse……but sometimes I have to hold myself back a bit.

I teach my children to think for themselves. I am proud of that.

Kudos? Except in cases of legitimate child abuse, parents have the freedom to raise their children as they see fit, and that includes bringing them up with certain values or in a particular culture. I'd recommend spending less time being judgmental of other people's parenting styles - especially since it's doubtful you have the entire story - and focus only on your own childrearing habits.

 

[LuisDantas]

I worry myself, Suzy. It can be shocking to see what is taught to young children.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Really? Since when? Maybe things are different where you live, but legitimate cases of child abuse involve:

• Physical abuse (aka, non-accidental injury)
• Neglect (aka, failure to provide basic survival needs like food, water, clothing, and shelter)
• Sexual abuse (aka, child pornography among other things)
• Emotional abuse (aka, observable changes in behavior and cognition diagnosable as clinical mental illnesses)
• Parental substance abuse (aka, exposing child to drugs by parent's use)
• Abandonment (aka, leaving child unattended)

Unless you can demonstrate that the teaching causes the child to have a clinical mental illness, there would be no grounds to claim child abuse. I don't doubt that there are a handful of cases here and there where a parent grills a child so intensely in an idea like this that it causes lasting psychological trauma, but this would be an exceptional case.

Did you hear that? That was the sound of the point passing over your head. Her statement was pretty obviously intended at least partially as hyperbole. However, so far as it goes, you are quite mistaken about the frequency of negative psychological effects of religious indoctrination; it is hardly "an exceptional case", and has had the attention of psychologists and researchers for some time. "Catholic guilt" is not just a meaningless cliche.

Kudos? Except in cases of legitimate child abuse, parents have the freedom to raise their children as they see fit, and that includes bringing them up with certain values or in a particular culture.

And that they have the right to do X does not entail that X is morally commendable or effective. This comment is completely irrelevant.

I'd recommend spending less time being judgmental of other people's parenting styles - especially since it's doubtful you have the entire story

What information could possibly mitigate instilling guilt/fear/paranoia/metaphysical pipe-dreams in young children? I'm not sure the other parts of the story could be relevant, even in principle.

And in any case, if we are to follow your advice, we should NOT concern ourselves with the potentially harmful and immoral actions of others and we should just "mind our own business".

Not a policy we will adopt any time soon, if we're lucky.

 

[Quintessence]

You have a remarkable talent for misconstruing what I actually said.

 

[freethinker44]

In some way, parents who hold such beliefs are doing what they believe is best for their child. They dont want their child to end up in such a fate which is a loving gesture even if it is misguided.

Just because it's a loving gesture and only good intentions were meant by it, doesn't make it right. for example, if someone believed people who are ignorant of the religion won't be punished for not believing in it, to ensure your child was guaranteed a spot in heaven, one could argue killing your children before they gain knowledge of religion and have a chance to be damned for something is a "loving" gesture. Although I would just call them a murderous psycho. So it's all subjective.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

You have a remarkable talent for misconstruing what I actually said.

I don't see how; its pretty clear you took her statement waaay too literally. Its also true that the psychological effects of religious indoctrination are not as rare or minimal as you seem to think. It also seems pretty clear (to me at any rate) that there is nothing inappropriate about "being judgmental" regarding a practice that is both extremely commonplace, and of questionable moral quality.

But if I've mistaken you somehow, then please clarify.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't see how; its pretty clear you took her statement waaay too literally.

Perhaps, perhaps not. It seems wiser to me to allow the original poster to speak for herself instead of you speaking for her. I have seen people attempt to make the case that raising a child in cultural traditions they disagree with is "child abuse," and the post was made in the spirit of such claims, if not literally, than suggestively. Suggesting it is more than enough grounds for me to raise questions.

Its also true that the psychological effects of religious indoctrination are not as rare or minimal as you seem to think.

If you want to challenge the claim that documented cases of mental illness resulting directly (as in caused by, not correlated to) "religious indoctrination" occur more than minimally (more than 10% of the time), show me the evidence. Given incidence rates of mental illness in general do not even approach that value, yeah, I'm pretty damn skeptical of your allegations.

It also seems pretty clear (to me at any rate) that there is nothing inappropriate about "being judgmental" regarding a practice that is both extremely commonplace, and of questionable moral quality.

Sure, but in my post, I didn't say it was inappropriate, nor did I frame things in terms of morality. It seems you kind of piecemealed away this part:

Except in cases of legitimate child abuse, parents have the freedom to raise their children as they see fit, and that includes bringing them up with certain values or in a particular culture.

If someone isn't doing something illegal, I recommend people keep their judgements to themselves and mind their own children instead of others that are not their responsibility. Let them mind their affairs, and you mind yours.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Perhaps, perhaps not. It seems wiser to me to allow the original poster to speak for herself instead of you speaking for her.

Sure, if there is something that is less than clear. The hyperbole seems to speak for itself. In any case, there is, after all, such a thing as the principle of charity.

If you want to challenge the claim that documented cases of mental illness resulting directly (as in caused by, not correlated to) "religious indoctrination" occur more than minimally (more than 10% of the time), show me the evidence. Given incidence rates of mental illness in general do not even approach that value, yeah, I'm pretty damn skeptical of your allegations.

Then it would seem that your 10% number (arbitrarily pulled from you-know-where, it seems) is not a good indicator, yes? In any case, there is evidence that, particularly among certain groups, the danger of psychological harm of certain forms of religious education is far more substantial (for instance, in gays and lesbians, as Schuck and Liddle show) and can rise to level of mental illness, and there are far more cases (some documented, many more anecdotal) of negative psychological effects that do no qualify as mental illness. Moreover, there is EXTREME social pushback against even researching the subject, which should hardly be surprising given the religious demographic of this country, and its entirely possible that the extent we're even aware of negative effects of religious indoctrination is only the tip of the iceberg.

Besides, negative effects qualifying as clinical mental illness is a red herring to begin with. Negative effects that fall short of this are clearly still extremely relevant to this question.

Sure, but in my post, I didn't say it was inappropriate

Suggesting that they do otherwise certainly implies that you find something wrong with it.

If someone isn't doing something illegal, I recommend people keep their judgements to themselves and mind their own children instead of others that are not their responsibility. Let them mind their affairs, and you mind yours.

Why? Particularly on a discussion forum, what exactly is the point of this recommendation? Seems rather pointless to me; I see no harm in discussing potentially harmful and immoral, if technically legal, practices that others engage in- in fact, it seems some good could possibly even come of it. On the other hand, refraining from discussing such things and simply minding our own business strikes me as a poor precedent.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Religion or the teaching of religion to children is not child abuse unless as aforementioned, it goes to extremes resulting in mental and physical harm.

Childern grow up. In a good number of instances they will form their own opinions and beliefs upon adulthood that usually differ in respects from that of their parents.

While I agree with Suzy that it's best for a child's interest to avoid religious mythology taught as fact, I don't think there should be intervention to the extreme where authorities come and seize childern and incarcerating parents on a basis of what is believed spiritually or practiced.

 

[Quintessence]

Besides, negative effects qualifying as clinical mental illness is a red herring to begin with. Negative effects that fall short of this are clearly still extremely relevant to this question.

Obviously.

However, this is not what I was specifically talking about. I'm currently framing my thoughts on this matter as per the demanding standards that would be required to remove a child from their parent's household. Solid cases need to be built for that sort of thing. This means that I am only talking about the clinical, well-evidenced, extreme cases, not the possible plethora of angstheists who have non-clinical issues. Understand? It feels like you're creating polarity where there isn't one.

Suggesting that they do otherwise certainly implies that you find something wrong with it.

Not really. I'm stating matter-of-fact how things operate in my culture. If it isn't a case of child abuse, parents have the freedom to raise their kids in a manner others might happen to disagree with. It's one of those... inconvenient rights granted to people by the laws of my country.

Why? Particularly on a discussion forum, what exactly is the point of this recommendation?

I'm allowed to express my thoughts just as much as you are, sir.

I see no harm in discussing potentially harmful and immoral, if technically legal, practices that others engage in- in fact, it seems some good could possibly even come of it.

Neither do I. Not sure why you perceive that I do. I find it interesting that you choose to polarize this discussion even where such poles are not there. I'm not the polar opposite of your position that you seem to be thinking I am. It's as if you want to pick a fight, especially with some of that rather snarky language you're using. I'm not particularly a fan of that, so beg your pardon if I decide to discontinue this conversation from here. You'll have to find someone else to argue with.

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't think there should be intervention to the extreme where authorities come and seize childern and incarcerating parents on a basis of what is believed spiritually or practiced.

That kind of intervention is certainly destructive in and of itself. Which is not to say that it is never warranted.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

I find it interesting that you choose to polarize this discussion even where such poles are not there. I'm not the polar opposite of your position that you seem to be thinking I am. It's as if you want to pick a fight, especially with some of that rather snarky language you're using. I'm not particularly a fan of that, so beg your pardon if I decide to discontinue this conversation from here. You'll have to find someone else to argue with.

This is a discussion/debate forum. I disagreed with your post. Forgive me for thinking that we could... you know, discuss that.

 

[roger1440]

If I taught my children at an early age that the bogy man was going to come and take my children away and kill them slowly over an open fire if they were not good and the authorities found out about it my children could be taken from me and I could be arrested for child abuse. And rightly so.

I have a friend that is a roman catholic. We are good friends and I was delighted when after a lot of trying she finally became pregnant and gave birth to a little boy. But as soon as he could talk and begin to understand what his mother was telling him she started teaching him the beliefs of ‘the church’
What is so relevant to my point here is that the only reason she believed in the roman catholic church was because her mother was a roman catholic. No other reason whatsoever! And now he believes in hellfire too?
The reason why I feel so strongly about this is watching that lovely little boy myself as he grew up. Before my own eyes I watched him till he was seven years old and completely indoctrinated into the chinch without once being shown any logical reason for his beliefs.
I would never accuse her or any religious parent of child abuse……but sometimes I have to hold myself back a bit.

I teach my children to think for themselves. I am proud of that.

Sadly, most people know very little about the religion they profuse to believe in, at least when it comes to Christians. When asked, many Christians can’t define what a Christian is. A great number of so called Christians believe they are Christians simply because their parents believed they were Christians. My understanding of Christianity is that it not inherited like freckles or a large nose from our parents. Many children believe they are Christian because they receive Christmas presents on Christmas morning and an Easter basket on Easter. Being born in a Christian home does not make a person a Christian any more than being born in a tree make a person a bird. Christianity is a religion of faith. Without faith there is no Christian. The first question a Christian must be able to answer is, “faith is what?” This can only be answered by study. The addition of fellowship helps one sustain their faith and hopefully grow. I’m not promoting Christianity; I’m simply saying one should know what they believe in, regardless of what that may be. A catechism that focuses on the threat of hell fire unless one has the right beliefs is no catechism at all.

 

[oldbadger]

I worry about the children of religious parents.

Hello Suzy! Another UK member.......

I'm sorry to read about this particular worry of yours.

Last week a couples' pit-bull killed their kid. I worry about this kind of thing.
Some parents abuse their children. I worry about this kind of thing.
...... you get the idea.

But, I've got to tell you that I don't worry about children growing up in 'religious' homes. I don't. Not particularly. I often debate against, for instance, JW ideas and policies, but I know lots of JW kids and I've got to say that these are amongst the most impressive children that I've ever met.

I don't know any Catholic kids though.......

 

[JayJayDee]

Hello Suzy! Another UK member.......

I'm sorry to read about this particular worry of yours.

Last week a couples' pit-bull killed their kid. I worry about this kind of thing.
Some parents abuse their children. I worry about this kind of thing.
...... you get the idea.

But, I've got to tell you that I don't worry about children growing up in 'religious' homes. I don't. Not particularly. I often debate against, for instance, JW ideas and policies, but I know lots of JW kids and I've got to say that these are amongst the most impressive children that I've ever met.

I don't know any Catholic kids though.......

Nice of you to say that OB.

Parents can't force their beliefs on their children, they can only live them and demonstrate the benefits of them in their own lives. Children have a hypocrisy meter set on high...if parents don't practise what they preach, kids will soon see through it and form their own opinions anyway.

JW's try to teach their kids to be responsible human beings and to put into practise the things they have taught them from the Bible. If they choose to retain those beliefs, and form their own bond with God, that is all well and good, but if they don't, that is their prerogative, but its heartbreaking all the same.

 

[suzy smith]

Hello Suzy! Another UK member.......

I'm sorry to read about this particular worry of yours.

Last week a couples' pit-bull killed their kid. I worry about this kind of thing.
Some parents abuse their children. I worry about this kind of thing.
...... you get the idea.

But, I've got to tell you that I don't worry about children growing up in 'religious' homes. I don't. Not particularly. I often debate against, for instance, JW ideas and policies, but I know lots of JW kids and I've got to say that these are amongst the most impressive children that I've ever met.

I don't know any Catholic kids though.......

Hi to you too.

I know a lot about the Jehovah’s witnesses. They bring there kids up to believe that ‘the end is near’ [they have been saying that for over 150 years and have named the actual date several times] so there is no point in higher education. Window cleaning or gardening will do for them [nothing wrong with those jobs obviously] but their future is damaged already.
Yes they are very smart, they are very polite……they are also walking zombies when it comes to trying to reason with them.
My ex husband is a J.W. So I really do know a lot about them.
So thank you for providing an excellent example of what religion does to children.