I worry about the children of religious parents.

[dawny0826]

What gives you the impression the OP is looking for recognition or flattery, rather than discussion?

The OP is not only worried about the children of religious parents, the OP illustrates this concern through personal account, which welcomes, in my opinion, a more personal dialogue.

My response was not intended as an inflammatory gesture. To the contrary, I hoped to trigger this type of discussion.

I don't have to hide my disdain, not even on this forum, towards the opinion that raising a child in a religious household is a form of child abuse.

Probably not a brilliant idea. If there is ONE thing that people are more sensitive about than their religion, it is their children and their parenting methods.

Exactly! But, yet, the OP projects pride for raising his/her children differently and brings the topic up here on this forum where there are other people who assuredly raise their children within religious households. Are those in opposition supposed to refrain from sharing an objectionable opinion?

Whether the OP addresses a genuine personal example or not, the OP exemplifies an arrogance that is bound to be objectionable to others. Raising your children in a religious household rarely translates to brainswashing, misery, stupidity, insert your labeling here.

As a religious parent, I tire of the unfair stigmatization. My children ARE encouraged to think for themselves and are also involved in religious practice.

It's the blanket label assumptions - that children are prohibited from thinking or questioning if raised in religion or incapable of doing so - that is irritating. I was raised by a super conversative mother and questioned her all the time. I still do.

I doubt that this person or most people have the type of insight into the lives of others to be able to say with confidence...yes...this child cannot think for themselves...they NEVER question anything, as their parents have completely brain washed them.

And if the OP TRULY believes that a kid has been abused, which is what the OP suggests, then it is horribly dishonest to not confront the friend about it or to do something about it.

If you're not going to do anything about it, at minimum, you know at the heart of things that the kid is not REALLY being abused. The problem is moreso with yourself and your problem with religion.

Hmm, rather than throw a temper tantrum, why not respond like an adult and say what is wrong with her post?

I didn't project a temper tantrum at all. I apologize if my post read that way, Again, my intention was to highlight the absurdity of the arrogance in the notion that one parenting style was somehow superior to another because the OP believes it to be.

You can take pride in the way you choose to parent your children, but, if you genuinely take issue BECAUSE YOU ARE CONCERNED for the well being of other children, it's dishonest not to do something about it. If you can't do something about it, that should tell you something right there about your mindset towards your friend.

If it was genuine child abuse you would do something about it, wouldn't you?

As it happens, the OP strikes me as eminently reasonable- and given how typical reactions like yours are on this particular subject, relatively courageous as well- takes some cajones to touch this subject, and for the most part, the OP is right.

Only, I was deliberate by the manner in which I chose to respond to prove a point, which again, was clearly not taken.

You don't have the perspective of the other parent at all. But, of course, the OP is right. I got it.

 

[McBell]

Do I think I have superior parenting skills?

You never answer this question.
It is a direct forward question.
Why no direct forward answer?

Others indoctrinate into their children superstitions without any scientific proof whatsoever, flies in the face of all that is logical and adversely affects their future life.

Can.
May.
Might.
Could.

I leave the reader to make his own mind up as to who is the superior parent.
Why do some people presume something about you and then have a go at you about it? :sarcastic

Good question.
Why are you making the presumptions you are about your friend?

 

[Enai de a lukal]

The OP is not only worried about the children of religious parents, the OP illustrates this concern through personal account, which welcomes, in my opinion, a more personal dialogue.

Which nevertheless doesn't entail that the OP is seeking flattery.

I don't have to hide my disdain, not even on this forum, towards the opinion that raising a child in a religious household is a form of child abuse.

The OP is not criticizing merely "raising a child in a religious household", although the title may imply that; but if you read the OP, she's clearly talking about actively teaching/indoctrinating children at a very young age, particularly with religious beliefs of a pernicious nature (Catholicism, as opposed to, say, Buddhism).

Exactly! But, yet, the OP projects pride for raising his/her children differently and brings the topic up here on this forum where there are other people who assuredly raise their children within religious households. Are those in opposition supposed to refrain from sharing an objectionable opinion?

Nope. But the fact that there are parents here, and ones who engage in the type of parenting in question, is not the same as broaching the subject with one's friend directly- people are definitely more touchy regarding their own children, than children in general. Also, she probably doesn't have a personal relationship with posters on this board that would be threatened by such a conversation. The bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with bringing the subject up on a discussion forum and not to your friend directly; of course, this is all moot as the OP has said she has brought it up with her friend.

Whether the OP addresses a genuine personal example or not, the OP exemplifies an arrogance that is bound to be objectionable to others. Raising your children in a religious household rarely translates to brainswashing

Reeeeally? I would suggest that teaching your child the doctrines of a particular religion, prior to a certain age, necessarily constitutes brainwashing. What else would you call it, given that the most trusted and authoritative figure in the child's world is teaching them, as fact, something concerning which they are not intellectually capable of assessing or even fully understanding?

It's the blanket label assumptions - that children are prohibited from thinking or questioning if raised in religion or incapable of doing so

For certain forms of religion, this is not an entirely unfair assumption. While there may be exceptions (as there always are), dogmatic religions in general are HIGHLY incompatible with critical or independent thought. (And for obvious reasons; they crumble the minute one turns a critical eye to them)

I didn't project a temper tantrum at all. I apologize if my post read that way, Again, my intention was to highlight the absurdity of the arrogance in the notion that one parenting style was somehow superior to another because the OP believes it to be.

But you didn't highlight any absurdity, you merely registering your disagreement with the OP. Highlighting an absurdity would probably have to consist in saying where/how the OP is wrong.

You can take pride in the way you choose to parent your children, but, if you genuinely take issue BECAUSE YOU ARE CONCERNED for the well being of other children, it's dishonest not to do something about it.

Again, a moot point, but this is pretty dubious anyways. If there is no reasonable recourse available, how is it "dishonest"?

If it was genuine child abuse you would do something about it, wouldn't you?

So riddle me this. Suppose someone you know is a single parent and a workaholic; you are reasonably certain that their work schedule has negative effects on their child- they are lonely, withdrawn, etc. Clearly not "genuine child abuse", but negative nevertheless. Are you concerned about the child's well-being? One would hope so. But what would you do about it, given that there is really nothing to be done?

This strikes me as a very similar case.

You don't have the perspective of the other parent at all. But, of course, the OP is right. I got it.

I can certainly understand the perspective of the other parent; this is what they believe, it is important to them, and they want to include their child. I just don't happen to agree with their decision. There's nothing inherently arrogant about disagreeing with someone's actions.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

You never answer this question.
It is a direct forward question.
Why no direct forward answer?

Um... Maybe because it isn't in any way relevant? Even if her own parenting was relevant (it doesn't seem to be especially so), the question is parenting methods, not "skills". Maybe her friend is an excellent parent, but has just made one bad parenting decision.

Can.
May.
Might.
Could.

Lol, riiiiiight.

Good question.
Why are you making the presumptions you are about your friend?

Wow. Clever. Of course, her's was an entirely fair question in light of the majority of the responses her OP has received.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I teach my children to think for themselves. I am proud of that.

Doesn't this include they can choose to become a religious parent themselves?

 

[dawny0826]

Yes I did talk to her and as friends we can do that without throwing a hissy fit [unlike some people]
Do I think I have superior parenting skills? I leave my children to find out the truth about religion for themselves. Others indoctrinate into their children superstitions without any scientific proof whatsoever, flies in the face of all that is logical and adversely affects their future life.
I leave the reader to make his own mind up as to who is the superior parent.
Why do some people presume something about you and then have a go at you about it? :sarcastic

Did you tell her that you feel that she's abused her child, like you've projected here?

You're worried about the children of religious parents

You're projecting that if there's not scientific proof "whatsoever" or if something isn't logical, there will be adverse effects in a child's life. Perhaps, this has been the case for your friend's child, but, blanket label assumptions are unfair and often result in unfair stigmatization and misunderstandings.

I don't expect you to agree with me, but, surely, you can't expect religious parents to agree with you.

Just the same, I have not meant you any disrespect on a personal level. I do respect your right to differing opinions.

 

[dawny0826]

Which nevertheless doesn't entail that the OP is seeking flattery.

What would you have me say? I did not mean my comments in personal attack anymore than I suspect the OP did.

I responded as per my own interpretation of the original post.

The OP is not criticizing merely "raising a child in a religious household", although the title may imply that; but if you read the OP, she's clearly talking about actively teaching/indoctrinating children at a very young age, particularly with religious beliefs of a pernicious nature (Catholicism, as opposed to, say, Buddhism).

I'm well aware as I read the OP.

If you weren't aware, "raising" a child in a religious household often entails teaching your child and involving them in religious activity from an early age. We don't leave our children at home with babysitters on Sundays or exclude them from holidays, family gatherings and other important religious function. We include our children in our own customs.

Most of us answer our children's questions honestly and allow for room for personal growth, contrary to that which the OP projects.

Nope. But the fact that there are parents here, and ones who engage in the type of parenting in question, is not the same as broaching the subject with one's friend directly- people are definitely more touchy regarding their own children, than children in general. Also, she probably doesn't have a personal relationship with posters on this board that would be threatened by such a conversation. The bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with bringing the subject up on a discussion forum and not to your friend directly; of course, this is all moot as the OP has said she has brought it up with her friend.

I haven't insinuated that there is anything wrong with doing so. You have, however, pointedly, explained that I've wrongfully addressed the OP on more than one occasion. You're welcome to continue chastising the manner by which I respond.

Reeeeally? I would suggest that teaching your child the doctrines of a particular religion, prior to a certain age, necessarily constitutes brainwashing.

So, what? Is this the part where we take our life experiences and opinions and go head to head?

I have two daughters and they are certainly not brainswashed.

Your opinions are your own. Unless you spend time with me and my family, get to know us and see how these girls behave and interact with others, you're not in the position to tell me that my kids are brainwashed. If you project that they are...I can find such a notion to be arrogant as hell, particularly when you have no insight into our lives, save what I share here.

What else would you call it, given that the most trusted and authoritative figure in the child's world is teaching them, as fact, something concerning which they are not intellectually capable of assessing or even fully understanding?

Again. Come hang with kids who go to church and/or are being brought up in faith and then let's talk about this brainwashing thing.

Until you have "proof" on a large scale as to the impact of religion on children in an abusive context, this is moot conversation.

For certain forms of religion, this is not an entirely unfair assumption. While there may be exceptions (as there always are), dogmatic religions in general are HIGHLY incompatible with critical or independent thought. (And for obvious reasons; they crumble the minute one turns a critical eye to them)

But, how can you apply this to tangible statistics to demonstrate how, religion is impacting children in "abusive" terms. This is what the OP contends.

Your opinions are fine and dandy but our objections to religion mean nothing when you're accusing parents of abuse. Where's the proof. Convictions require proof.

But you didn't highlight any absurdity, you merely registering your disagreement with the OP. Highlighting an absurdity would probably have to consist in saying where/how the OP is wrong.

Fine. Have I not taken ownership for not getting my point across? I'm okay with that. I'm sorry that I didn't do a good enough job.

What more do you want? This isn't the first time that you've pointed out how poorly I've debated, yet, you haven't presented anything that's blowing my mind to support the OP, other than telling me that I'm wrong and the OP is right. Okay. Fine.

Again, a moot point, but this is pretty dubious anyways. If there is no reasonable recourse available, how is it "dishonest"?

I wrongfully assumed, here and have to take ownership of that. The OP was gracious to address me in this thread and stated that the friend was talked with about the situation. I regret jumping to wrongful conclusions and assumptions are rarely fair.

So riddle me this. Suppose someone you know is a single parent and a workaholic; you are reasonably certain that their work schedule has negative effects on their child- they are lonely, withdrawn, etc. Clearly not "genuine child abuse", but negative nevertheless. Are you concerned about the child's well-being? One would hope so. But what would you do about it, given that there is really nothing to be done?

I would mention it to my friend and offer resources, if appropriate. Apples to oranges, though.

I can certainly understand the perspective of the other parent; this is what they believe, it is important to them, and they want to include their child. I just don't happen to agree with their decision. There's nothing inherently arrogant about disagreeing with someone's actions.

No. But, you could very well project arrogance, contingent upon the manner by which you express your opinions. Even if you didn't intend it...you can't control how others perceive your opinions. Clearly, I haven't done very well in thread. You keep reminding me of that.

 

[suzy smith]

I don't expect you to agree with me, but, surely, you can't expect religious parents to agree with you.
.

I'm stupid......but I am not that stupid.

 

[ChristineES]

I teach my children to think for themselves. I am proud of that.

And why on earth would you believe that we religious parents don't teach our children to think for themselves? (If that is what you are insinuating)

On top of that, I have found that non-religious people are just as judgmental as religious folks- in general. (This has nothing to do with anything said in the post, but I felt moved to say it).

 

[oldbadger]

Hi to you too.

I know a lot about the Jehovah’s witnesses. ...................
..................My ex husband is a J.W. So I really do know a lot about them.
So thank you for providing an excellent example of what religion does to children.

So.... no prejudice there, then...?
A person is not a zombie because they belong to a faith or religion.
I was a commercial detective and CD Trainer for many decades, and the kid-zombies I met were usually agnostics on drugs.

Honestly.......... I can't support your POV on this...... but still welcome to the forum...

 

[ametist]

As if some children are of different gods we should worry about them of course.

 

[Drolefille]

I too have wandered into this line of thought, one I consider to be easily overdramatized. Most people turn out just fine. Most people are somewhat closeminded in some things and open in others. Most people are heavily influence by their parents' values whether religious or otherwise. Many people, if not most, rebel against those values at some point and then settle down into their own values similar to their parents but with some amount of change - more open to interracial relationships, more religious, less religious, more accepting of LGBT individuals, etc.

Most people turn out just fine. And that includes centuries of people being raised by parents with strong, structured religious beliefs who taught their children that these beliefs were truth. This is one of those situations where we can look at outcomes and see fairly clearly that our hypothesis is incorrect.

I don't believe there's a single parent who does not "indoctrinate" their children in some manner or other, even if it isn't literal "doctrine." Everything a parent does affects the child's future, and without some sort of quantifiable harm -rather than just the belief of harm - raising a child to be religious really isn't something to worry about.

Note: Some religious people are abusive. Religion may be part of their abuse. I'm not excusing that, simply refusing to assume all religious, or even the majority of religious people are abusive.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Most of us answer our children's questions honestly and allow for room for personal growth, contrary to that which the OP projects.

Who is the "most of us" you're referring to? Your particular church? Religious people in general?

I question your impression. I can't count the number of non-religious people I've met who felt stifled in their religious upbringing.

I'd also bet dollars to donuts that if you really thought about it, you could think of at least a few parents you know whose children would - because of the parent's religious beliefs - have a very difficult time if they ended up gay or atheist. I know I can.

 

[Drolefille]

Who is the "most of us" you're referring to? Your particular church? Religious people in general?

I question your impression. I can't count the number of non-religious people I've met who felt stifled in their religious upbringing.

I'd also bet dollars to donuts that if you really thought about it, you could think of at least a few parents you know whose children would - because of the parent's religious beliefs - have a very difficult time if they ended up gay or atheist. I know I can.

Sure, and plenty who aren't. Or people who felt stifled by parents for other reasons, or had problems because they didn't want to go to law school.

Religion itself doesn't make someone a bad parent or an abusive one.

 

[dawny0826]

Who is the "most of us" you're referring to? Your particular church? Religious people in general?

I question your impression. I can't count the number of non-religious people I've met who felt stifled in their religious upbringing.

I'd also bet dollars to donuts that if you really thought about it, you could think of at least a few parents you know whose children would - because of the parent's religious beliefs - have a very difficult time if they ended up gay or atheist. I know I can.

My own peer group, which is comprised of people of varied religious backgrounds. What we share are comparable parenting styles.

Now, if you'd like to present evidence that my children and the children within my peer group are being abused in some manner because of the religious influences in their life, as introduced and shared by their parents, be my guest.

To answer your last question, the children of my peer group are far more open to LGBTQs than prior generations, because WE are a more open, tolerant generation and incorporate such views into our own belief system.

Though I'm sure that there are others of comparable faith who hold differing views. I don't deny that.

My children are taught to be respectful of everyone and to talk to FH and I if someone is disrespectful to them. I've talked about homosexuality openly with my children...and my children know that it's okay and that we don't treat homosexuals different because we are to be kind to everyone.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My own peer group, which is comprised of people of varied religious backgrounds. What we share are comparable parenting styles.

"Your peer group"... as in a circle of friends, or an entire demographic category?

Edit: either way, if you're basing your opinions on a group of people who have been selected based on their similarity in parenting styles, then you've got quite the selection bias going on.

Now, if you'd like to present evidence that my children and the children within my peer group are being abused in some manner because of the religious influences in their life, as introduced and shared by their parents, be my guest.

I didn't say anything about abuse. We don't need to start throwing "abuse" allegations around to ask whether religion is a generally positive or negative influence.

To answer your last question, the children of my peer group are far more open to LGBTQs than prior generations, because WE are a more open, tolerant generation and incorporate such views into our own belief system.

And that's a good thing. But these influences affect both religious and non-religous parents. Within your generation, would you say that when lack of tolerance for LGBTQ kids does happen, does it happen more often in religious households or non-religious ones?

 

[dawny0826]

"Your peer group"... as in a circle of friends, or an entire demographic category?

Yes, my friends and acquaintances.

Edit: either way, if you're basing your opinions on a group of people who have been selected based on their similarity in parenting styles, then you've got quite the selection bias going on.

And are you not speaking from a bias yourself? This is ridiculous.

I didn't say anything about abuse. We don't need to start throwing "abuse" allegations around to ask whether religion is a generally positive or negative influence.

It's not outlandish for me to assume that you were suggesting such a thing, when you mentioned people feeling "stifled". You've accused people like myself of child abuse before, so...

And that's a good thing. But these influences affect both religious and non-religous parents. Within your generation, would you say that when lack of tolerance for LGBTQ kids does happen, does it happen more often in religious households or non-religious ones?

Without data, I have only opinions. As you do. I can only answer from the perspective of my own peer group. I don't know religious people who spew hatred.

My mother didn't condone homosexuality, yet, I'm an openly bisexual woman and just provided an explanation as to how I raise my own children within our household.

 

[LuisDantas]

Sure, and plenty who aren't. Or people who felt stifled by parents for other reasons, or had problems because they didn't want to go to law school.

Religion itself doesn't make someone a bad parent or an abusive one.

Of course. And no one is saying so.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, my friends and acquaintances.


And are you not speaking from a bias yourself? This is ridiculous.

You just told me that you're basing your opinions on a group with similar parenting styles. Basing your opinion of the population in general on just this is going to be skewed.

I've had co-workers from all over the world; all of them spoke English. I don't infer from this that most of the people in the world speak English, because I know there's a selection bias in that sample: they were all working in an English-speaking country and had jobs where English was a job requirement.

The way you described your "peer group", it doesn't seem to me like it would be a representative cross-section of society.

It's not outlandish for me to assume that you were suggesting something negative.

"Negative" is a very wide spectrum; not all of it qualifies as abuse.

Without data, I have only opinions. As you do.

That's fine - I'll treat your answer as just your opinion. What is it?

Edit: I see you edited your post after I replied:

I can only answer from the perspective of my own peer group. I don't know religious people who spew hatred.

I don't believe you.

Maybe you don't consider these people your friends, but I don't see how it's possible to be a functioning adult in Canada or the US today and not know anyone who exhibits religiously-based hatred.

My mother didn't condone homosexuality, yet, I'm an openly bisexual woman and just provided an explanation as to how I raise my own children within our household.

How did it feel to grow up in that environment?

Do you think that everyone who was brought up being taught religious prohibitions on homosexuality was able to become as open and tolerant as you did? I'm glad you overcame that aspect of your upbringing, but I don't think that everyone in similar circumstances does.

 

[dawny0826]

Of course. And no one is saying so.

Oh, I disagree. We can sugar coat and pretend that this insinuation isn't there, but, it is.