I worry about the children of religious parents.

[Drolefille]

Of course. And no one is saying so.

If I taught my children at an early age that the bogy man was going to come and take my children away and kill them slowly over an open fire if they were not good and the authorities found out about it my children could be taken from me and I could be arrested for child abuse. And rightly so.

I would never accuse her or any religious parent of child abuse……but sometimes I have to hold myself back a bit.

I think that the implication is that it is at least "bad" parenting if not borderline abuse. The statement is actually worded in such a way that it suggests the OP wouldn't say it, but thinks that it is.

 

[LuisDantas]

Oh, I disagree. We can sugar coat and pretend that this insinuation isn't there, but, it is.

I just don't see it. Maybe you can point it out to me?

What I do see is a curious tendency to confuse criticism of abuse and excess that is often protected from much-needed questioning by religious justifications with criticism of religion itself.

But maybe that is the point. I do not know.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think that the implication is that it is at least "bad" parenting if not borderline abuse.

Yep. It is.

The statement is actually worded in such a way that it suggests the OP wouldn't say it, but thinks that it is.

It is you, not her, who is reading that as an accusation that religion itself is harmful.

 

[Drolefille]

Yep. It is.



It is you, not her, who is reading that as an accusation that religion itself is harmful.

Ah, no. I'm reading it as an accusation that religious parents are borderline abusive to at a minimum bad parents. And I'm inferring based on the implication present.

 

[LuisDantas]

Ah, no. I'm reading it as an accusation that religious parents are borderline abusive to at a minimum bad parents. And I'm inferring based on the implication present.

The OP was pretty clear. Abusive is abusive.

 

[dawny0826]

You just told me that you're basing your opinions on a group with similar parenting styles. Basing your opinion of the population in general on just this is going to be skewed.

I'm basing my opinions, Jeff, primarily on personal experience as a religious parent. And, I happen to have friends, co-workers and family members who can relate.

Considering that the majority of religious people that I've known have either reared children who have grown up to make their own choices in life (and are healthy people) or are rearing healthy and happy kids...and represent a diverse sampling of people...I don't think that my assessment is too far off.

Unless either of us could present data to prove or disprove a point, here, we're tossing around opinions.

You're not going to nail me to the wall for my choice of words. Let's move on.

"Negative" is a very wide spectrum; not all of it qualifies as abuse.

I realize.

That's fine - I'll treat your answer as just your opinion. What is it?

Ha ha. You're funny.

 

[Drolefille]

The OP was pretty clear. Abusive is abusive.

She used the bogeyman story -stated that would be abusive- as an allegory for religion. And then said she wouldn't actually say they were abusive BUT

That "but" pretty well negated everything before it - as I believe it was designed to.

Regardless the word abusive isn't the sticking point here - feel free to use "bad parent" instead if it concerns you. If we all agree it isn't abusive, awesome. I'd like OP to be more explicit on it.

 

[LuisDantas]

She used the bogeyman story -stated that would be abusive- as an allegory for religion. And then said she wouldn't actually say they were abusive BUT

That "but" pretty well negated everything before it - as I believe it was designed to.

Regardless the word abusive isn't the sticking point here - feel free to use "bad parent" instead if it concerns you. If we all agree it isn't abusive, awesome. I'd like OP to be more explicit on it.

I can only guess you did not understand the OP at all. Which is too bad, for it is a sorely needed warning.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm basing my opinions, Jeff, primarily on personal experience as a religious parent. And, I happen to have friends, co-workers and family members who can relate.

Considering that the majority of religious people that I've known have reared children who have grown up to make their own choices in life and represent a diverse sampling of people...I don't think that my assessment is too far off.

I'm not sure what to say except that I think you're presenting an inaccurate impression. You already talked about intolerance of homosexuality from your mother, who you've said before was a conservative Christian. I have a feeling that if you were being actually open about the issue, there would be similar people who you've filtered out when creating your impression.

Unless either of us could present data to prove or disprove a point, here, we're tossing around opinions.

Here's some data: a third of homeless youth are LGBT. Do you think these kids were kicked out of religious or non-religious homes?

I realize. I offer no apology for assuming the worst.

As long as you realize it's an assumption on your part.

 

[dawny0826]

I don't believe you.

I don't care.

I don't keep company with ********. I'm sorry that you find that hard to believe.

Maybe you don't consider these people your friends, but I don't see how it's possible to be a functioning adult in Canada or the US today and not know anyone who exhibits religiously-based hatred.

My grandmother and mother are the only two people in my life who are religiously conservative. But, I can't say with clear conscience that they spew hatred, as they don't. They're very loving people. They may hold differing views than I do, but, I'm no less honest or open with them about who I am and what I believe.

Edit: They have never attempted to prohibit any of our choices (my sisters and I) even when they disagree.

How did it feel to grow up in that environment?

I resented my mother at times, but, she never discouraged me from being an individual, even as religious as she was. I was very open with my parents because they kept those doors open. I never felt like I had to hide from them. My mother didn't always agree with everything that I did, but, she ultimately gave me the room to grow and explore and supported me regardless.

As such, we're very close.

I rebelled against religion. I said to heck with it and refused to go to church, fighting against my Mom for years. She conceded.

Do you think that everyone who was brought up being taught religious prohibitions on homosexuality was able to become as open and tolerant as you did? I'm glad you overcame that aspect of your upbringing, but I don't think that everyone in similar circumstances does.

No, but, I'm speaking truth when I say that the majority of people that I know have overcome such intolerance, even people who are much more religious than I am.

 

[dawny0826]

I'm not sure what to say except that I think you're presenting an inaccurate impression. You already talked about intolerance of homosexuality from your mother, who you've said before was a conservative Christian. I have a feeling that if you were being actually open about the issue, there would be similar people who you've filtered out when creating your impression.

You don't like my answer, therefore, I have to be incorrectly filtering and presenting an incaccurate impression.

How fair is that?

Here's some data: a third of homeless youth are LGBT. Do you think these kids were kicked out of religious or non-religious homes?

I don't know. But, I imagine that religion would be part of the issue with these kids. Without additional data, I could only speculate.

You're not going to get the answer that you're seeking.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't care.

I don't keep company with ********. I'm sorry that you find that hard to believe.

I do find it hard to believe. In my experience, we just can't avoid contact with certain people in our lives. If you managed not to have anybody unpleasant in that set of people, then you're probably the first to do it. One of these days, you'll have to tell me your secret.

My grandmother and mother are the only two people in my life who are religiously conservative. But, I can't say with clear conscience that they spew hatred, as they don't. They're very loving people.

People who spew hatred usually are. Nobody's a total monster. I've even heard Nate Phelps tell positive stories from his childhood about his father.

They may hold differing views than I do, but, I'm no less honest or open with them about who I am and what I believe.

That's good for you, but I'd hope that you have empathy for people who don't have the strength to be as open as you are.

I resented my mother at times, but, she never discouraged me from being an individual, as religious as she was. I had my first sexual encounter with a girl in my parent's house growing up. I was very open with my parents. My mother didn't always agree with everything that I did, but, she ultimately gave me the room to grow and explore and supported me regardless.

And hopefully you realize that not every mother with similar views is willing to give that sort of room and support.

No, but, I'm speaking truth when I say that the majority of people that I know have overcome such intolerance, even people who are much more religious than I am.

But how much better would it have been not to have had the intolerance in the first place?

 

[dawny0826]

I do find it hard to believe. In my experience, we just can't avoid contact with certain people in our lives. If you managed not to have anybody unpleasant in that set of people, then you're probably the first to do it. One of these days, you'll have to tell me your secret.

Naturally, I am in the company of some who are more pleasant than others. That's not precisely what we were talking about, now was it?

That's good for you, but I'd hope that you have empathy for people who don't have the strength to be as open as you are.

I guess. I'm not that strong of a person, to be honest. I'm just not comfortable with dishonesty.

And hopefully you realize that not every mother with similar views is willing to give that sort of room and support.

Of course, as I hope that you realize that not every mother with similiar views restricts and confines her children.

But how much better would it have been not to have had the intolerance in the first place?

I am who I am because of the experiences that have shaped me and the lessons that I've learned along the way. I have awesome parents and hope that neither regret the way they raised me.

 

[Drolefille]

I can only guess you did not understand the OP at all. Which is too bad, for it is a sorely needed warning.

I don't think I have misunderstood it. Without OP here to clarify however we just both have our opinions.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You don't like my answer, therefore, I have to be incorrectly filtering and presenting an incaccurate impression.

How fair is that?

I don't think that your impression is reflective of mainstream Catholicism or Evangelical Protestantism, two of the largest religious groups in your country and mine. Just on this basis alone, I reject your opinion as not reflective of the whole.

Maybe it reflects your own circle of friends or one liberal Christian congregation in one small area, but it goes against the teachings of the denominations that represent the most believers, and it goes against the data:

Across most demographic subgroups, including most religious groups, the percentage saying homosexuality should be accepted has increased over the past decade. Nonetheless, about half (48%) of those who attend religious services weekly or more often say homosexuality should be discouraged. Among less frequent attenders, 71% favor societal acceptance of homosexuality.

Section 3: Religious Belief and Views of Homosexuality | Pew Research Center for the People and the Press

I don't know. But, I imagine that religion would be part of the issue with these kids. Without additional data, I could only speculate.

You're not going to get the answer that you're seeking.

You don't need to come out and say the answer for everyone to realize what it is.

 

[lunamoth]

I go to church and I take my kids to church and Sunday school. They protest - they'd rather sleep in. They ask why, and I say because I want them to learn about religion and our family's religious beliefs in particular. I want them to experience it so that later in life, whether they accept it or reject it, they know what it is they are accepting or rejecting.

My older daughter, 13, declared herself an atheist, and I (to myself) rejoiced. I love it that she is at that point in life where she questions everything and I am proud that she has strong critical thinking skills. But, she still goes to church, just like she still goes to school even though she'd rather not most days (she is an outstanding student, but that watching anime in bed is still more fun). I asked her if maybe she was not atheist, but agnostic. Did she know that there is no God? So now she says she is agnostic. We've had some good discussions about science and religion given that I am a scientist and she loves science, and how do these two things go together, or not.

Anyway, for the record, like Dawny I've known many many people who were raised in their parents' religion, either very strictly or rather loosely, and all of these people are fine, healthy, rational, critically thinking people today, some practicing religion and some not. I know there is a small fraction of people who abuse their children via religion, but just raising your child in your faith, even if you are a literal believer, is not like child abuse.

 

[dawny0826]

I don't think that your impression is reflective of mainstream Catholicism or Evangelical Protestantism, two of the largest religious groups in your country and mine. Just on this basis alone, I reject your opinion as not reflective of the whole.

My impression wasn't intended to reflect anything other than my own perspective and experiences (and that which I've observed from those religious people within my own peer group, as I've explained).

As I've stated, in line with the OP, unless you can provide data which proves that involving our children at a young age in religious practice yields long term detriment, we're just tossing around opinion.

It goes without saying that I disagree with you too.

Maybe it reflects your own circle of friends or one liberal Christian congregation in one small area, but it goes against the teachings of the denominations that represent the most believers, and it goes against the data:

Section 3: Religious Belief and Views of Homosexuality | Pew Research Center for the People and the Press

I'm still trying to figure out how this is relevant to my posts to Suzy Smith and enaidealukal.

What, are you fishing for a "religious folks are more intolerant" type of affirmation from me?

This isn't what I was discussing. Further, your own source supports what Drollefille and I have already stated. There's a statistical increase in tolerance. Just because the religious tend to be less tolerant, statitistically, doesn't mean that this political intolerance translates to child abuse, which is what I've been talking about.

Are we talking about the same thing?

You don't need to come out and say the answer for everyone to realize what it is

Bull. This makes me giggle. If we were on the opposite side of this debate right now, you'd crucify me for not having solid stats to back such a statement. Tsk. Tsk.

 

[Drolefille]

You don't need to come out and say the answer for everyone to realize what it is.

Do you think that if religion was taken away and all else was the same, those same parents would be totally cool with gay people all of a sudden?

I look at the interracial marriage issue, one that was not as strongly driven by religious views - although certainly people on both sides used their religion to inform their beliefs. But mostly they were just racist people who saw blacks as inferior and whites as superior and that this was a boundary that needed to be maintained.

If you removed religious bias, you still would have parents flip out at their kids for being gay - they might not try to pray the gay away, but send their kids to therapy instead (thankfully legit therapy doesn't do that.) Why? Because their kid is weird, disgusting*, "like one of them**", not going to give them grandkids, bringing disrespect to the family, and so on.

There is almost certainly more oppression of LGBT kids in religious households, and there are also more religious households than there are otherwise, which means there are a large number of LGBT kids in religious households who are loved and accepted. Not enough, probably never enough by my standard of 100%, but nothing ever is. Religious people can be abusive and can use their religion as a tool or motivator in that abuse and it's possible that incidences are higher among religious people - however I cannot find numbers either way that aren't from heritage.org

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Naturally, I am in the company of some who are more pleasant than others. That's not precisely what we were talking about, now was it?

I can't tell - the exact sort of person you don't keep company with was starred out by the profanity filter.

Of course, as I hope that you realize that not every mother with similiar views restricts and confines her children.

Of course. But are they more or less likely to do it than a mother who was never taught that homosexuality is a sin?

I am who I am because of the experiences that have shaped me and the lessons that I've learned along the way. I have awesome parents and hope that neither regret the way they raised me.

I wasn't trying to speak to your own case; I was thinking of kids now or in the future.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This isn't what I was discussing. Further, your own source supports what Drollefille and I have already stated. There's a statistical increase in tolerance. Just because the religious tend to be less tolerant, statitistically, doesn't mean that this political intolerance translates to child abuse, which is what I've been talking about.

Are we talking about the same thing?

Our exchange all started with this:

Most of us answer our children's questions honestly and allow for room for personal growth, contrary to that which the OP projects.

If you weren't the one talking about honest and allowing room for growth, then I don't know who was.

I think it's bizarre that you keep on retreating to this "it's not child abuse!" position as if any parenting approach that doesn't cross the line into full-out abuse shouldn't be criticized.