Ideas concerning the cross. || JESUS ADHERENTS ONLY.

[Shiranui117]

Who said Christ's own body was utterly destroyed? I don't believe that Christ's own body ever was the Catholic Church. The wheat existed within it but were never really part of it.....just like the prophets of old existed in Judaism, but were not party to the corruption going on in it. Even John the Baptist didn't have a good word to say about them....

And we have evidence of the Prophets, plenty of it, but where in history can I find this "wheat" of which you speak? This has been my repeated question, and you have refused to give me anything. Until you supply evidence to the contrary, I have no reason to believe that any Jehovah's Witnesses (or those who share your beliefs) ever existed prior to the 1800's.

I see the RCC presuming to have an imagined apostolic connection in their "Holy Father", and trying to break every rule in the book.....but I don't believe it will do them any good either.

Apostolic Succession doesn't refer only to the line of succession of Popes. It refers to the line of succession of every single bishop in the Church, from today right back to the Apostles themselves.

You don't seem to see any variance between what the church "says" and what it actually "does".....religious images are in every Catholic church and every home....

Perhaps because, like Horton, the Church says what she means and means what she says.

despite the fact that God told his people NOT to MAKE images of ANYTHING at all

Other than when He did, you mean.

.......adoration of Madonna and child are not from the Bible, but from Babylonian mother goddess worship that spread to other cultures.....

Hold up, this is where I stop you. In the Catholic Church, adoratio is purely for God and God alone. Statues of the Blessed Mother (Luke 1:42) are never adored, only given respect, like how you might treat a Bible with respect.

there is a Babylonian sun wheel with an Egyptian obelisk right in the middle of St Peter's Square.....

Oh boy, next thing you're going to tell me is that bike wheels are a trick by sun worshipers because they're actually sun halos.

sun worship is everywhere in Catholicism, whether you want to see it or not.

Given that I choose to see the reality rather than some guy's baseless propaganda, no, I don't see it.

I have repeated this so many times already...Daniel foretold the cleansing of God's people at the time of the end. (Daniel 12:9-10) This is the time of the end. We are just rehashing now.

And you're no closer to proving your point than when we started. You still can't make your interpretation of Scripture line up conclusively and indisputably with history. It's why any attempt to call a church you don't like "the great apostasy" or "Babylon the Great" is a polemical tactic that literally everybody else abandoned centuries ago.

Excuse me, but monotheism goes back to the garden of Eden....unless you feel that Adam and Eve were created by some other God?

Hey, I thought we were just playing the "Name the time and place where we first see a concept like this emerging in recorded human history!" game. And Atenism beats out the Old Testament by several centuries.

I honestly think you have to be raised Catholic to swallow this stuff. I heard it was said by a Catholic priest..."give me a child till he's seven years old and he will be a Catholic for the rest of his life".

I wasn't raised Catholic at all. I was raised Protestant.

I don't believe that we are all going to be "kings and priests" as "joint heirs with Christ". Kings have to have subjects and priests have to have sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties.....

Wait, are you saying that sin will still exist after the Last Day?

I know who we believe they are........but who are these ones in Catholic belief Shiranui? Who do you kings rule?

It's not so much "who" but "what". We will rule over the earth and all of creation.

And just to point out......seeing as how there is no gender in heaven, the kings seen in the Revelation are all males, and so are the priests....there are no queens. Spirit beings are A-sexual because they do not reproduce.....but all responsibility for teaching in the congregation was assigned to males, so it was an all male show that all of God's prophets saw. There are only "sons of God" seen in heaven.

As Paul said.....(Galatians 3:26-28)
"You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus.27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus."

So once I'm baptized, I stop being male? I might have to ask my doctor about that... Otherwise the last 24 years of my life just got really, really confusing.

 

[metis]

Since the reference to Peter is a misinterpretation of Matthew 16:18. It was not Peter who was the "rock" but Christ himself upon which his "church" was biult. There were no such things as Popes in early Christianity. Peter's natural talents were utilized by Jesus in furtherance of the gospel, but none of the 12 were more or less important that the others. The gates of heaven are founded on the 12 apostles, not Peter. (Revelation 21:10, 14)

Again, you twist what I wrote, which was this: "The issue of 'apostolic succession' deals with the appointment of leaders to expand the church and to replace those that are dying, thus it deals with far more than just the Pope. Again, we see this in Acts and some of the epistles, but for some reason you're blind to what actually is found in your Bible on this in plain old black & white."

So, what you did was to disingenuously deflect back to the issue of just dealing with the Pope whereas I clearly stated that it goes well beyond just being an issue of the Pope. It's your many deflections like this why having a serious discussion with you is darn near impossible.

I have read many Catholic publications on-line.....I find them nauseating actually. What gives you the idea that we can't do our own research?

So, you find their writings about belief in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit "nauseating" do ya?

Turning up for a mindless ritual week after week and coming out with a sense of completing a duty, but no wiser for the experience is what most Catholic people tell me. They walk into church 'empty' and walk out the same way.

Your judgmentalism that defies what Jesus said about not judging is truly nauseating. I would suggest that they are the ones taking the moral-high ground, Deeje, because they're not judging the JW's nor others.

 

[metis]

What is with the repeated appeal to emotion.

The 'frustration' comes from having no defense for this church's teachings, history or conduct.

Because you simply are not doing it in an honest way, plus you are judging others in defiance of what Jesus taught you. One simply cannot believe in Jesus while ignoring what he teaches, such as what you have been doing.

Reading your disingenuous fabrications and judgmentalism very much gets under my skin. IOW, "you can have your own opinions but not your own facts", plus you keep defying "judge ye not" as if Jesus never taught you that.

LOL...you tell me. It isn't very convincing so far.

Yep, as we've seen even on our discussions dealing with the ToE, facts just don't seem to matter much to you.

So, Jesus exposed religious error because he just wanted to be mean and nasty to the Pharisees.....? Is that it?

Except Jesus and the apostles were working from a Pharisee paradigm, so what we read is essentially a "family argument" of sorts. But of course you won't accept that either because you know so very little about the Pharisees, thus repeatedly choosing to stereotype them as well.

If I step on people's toes, it is because I want to wake them up.

Well, that's nice and convenient for you to excuse your judgmentalism and bigotry against other Christian denominations and other religions, but some of us don't feel that doing either of these is moral.

I am not condemning another denomination....I am showing you why she stands condemned by God.

Now you are lying as you have over and over again condemned the CC. And, again, notice your judgmentalism as if you think you can speak for God. What arrogance.

Catholic people are taught to have blind faith in their infallible leadership but in fact the leadership lives in a gold inlaid palace with servants, whist the majority of his flock live in poverty. Is that what Christianity means to you?

Again, that's simply not true as the church takes its role of teaching seriously, but it also believes that it is the individual that must ultimately decide what they believe in and what course of actions they may take.

Again,what you continue to show us is a serious misunderstanding of Catholic theology. And instead of learning, you just ramble on with one distortion after another.

Why is the Vatican a separate country? Ever wondered?

Since I've studied both Catholic history and the history of the country my wife came from, ya. In short, the Vatican was created as a separate entity to try and keep it less susceptible to secular influences. Here in the States, we call that "separation of church and state", although we handle it in a different way.

Micah 6[8] says this: [8] "He has showed you, O man, what is good;
and what does the LORD require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God". Maybe give it a go, Deeje.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

It is a conviction of heart. Jehovah lets us know that he is leading his people, who have the light getting brighter by the day.

Really, Jehovah lets you know how, by the men that keep teaching error from the 'leading of the Holy Spirit' and then correcting their mistakes?

No doubt you feel confident as new light is shed on your own beliefs djh?

Again, how do you get "NEW light" out of the "light shines brighter"? The path becomes brighter, it doesn't change or become new or different, it becomes clearer!

These are 'truths' taught by your teachers for over a hundred years, and witnesses can not see the deception.

*** w13 7/15 p. 3 par. 2 “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” ***
2 Through the years, Jehovah’s servants have prayerfully studied Jesus’ prophecy about the last days. They have sought to get a clearer understanding of the timing of the fulfillment of Jesus’ words.

If they "prayerfully studied", why would God allow them to be wrong?
If they were TEACHING these things as truth they should have believed them, correct? Then why would they need to "seek a clearer understanding"? Were they teaching something that the "other sheep" had to accept as gospel from the 'slave' when they didn't completely understand it? If they didn't completely understand it, why did they teach it and command everyone to accept it until 2013? Would you call that a "faithful" slave? I wouldn't!


*** w13 7/15 p. 3 par. 3 “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” ***
3 For a number of years, we thought that the great tribulation began in 1914 with World War I...

See the deception in that statement? "For a number of years we thought", they didn't just think it! It should say, "for a number of years we TAUGHT as truth from God, and every member had to accept it or risk losing family and friends and be disfellowshipped because they didn't completely trust the 'slave' just as God and Jesus do".

*** w13 7/15 p. 4 par. 4 “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” ***
4 Upon further examination of Jesus’ prophecy, however, we perceived that a part of Jesus’ prophecy.

Why the need for "further examination"? They were teaching it as gospel from God for 100 years, without "perceiving" the truth?

They were just teaching their own opinion,

*** w13 7/15 p. 3 par. 3 “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” ***
3 For a number of years, we thought,

That's why your org keeps getting "new light"!

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Lack of intelligence to me, is indicated by blind faith. Catholic people are taught to have blind faith in their infallible leadership

Witness are taught to have "blind faith" in their "fallible" leadership, so whats the difference?


*** w09 2/15 p. 27 par. 11 They “Keep Following the Lamb” ***
11 Since Jehovah God and Jesus Christ completely trust the faithful and discreet slave, should we not do the same?


*** w57 5/1 p. 284 par. 14 Trust Your Proved, Faithful Brothers ***
14 Showing respect for Jehovah’s organization really resolves itself down to our attitude toward God’s visible channel and the trust that we place in our proved, faithful brothers. If we have become thoroughly convinced that this is Jehovah’s organization, that he is guiding and directing his people, then we shall not be unsettled by anything that happens. If something comes up that we do not understand we will wait patiently until it is made thoroughly clear to us. If we feel sure something is wrong we will ‘keep the commandment’ of our Father and take whatever theocratic steps are open to us and then wait on Jehovah.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Tell me where in all of scripture that the holy spirit is ever called "God"?

Acts 5:3-4 (ESV Strong's) 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.”

Peter said that Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, then he said, "you have not lied to man, but to God". How is it possible to lie to God's active force?

 

[Deeje]

Alright, then show me the recorded history of this apostasy, and show me the unbroken line of people who kept what you consider to be the true faith, from the first century up to today. You always claim that there were at least a few people who believed as you do throughout history, so you should have no problem giving me names, dates, biographies and writings of at least three such individuals.

Shiranui, I don't know why you want to continue this conversation.....? Its pretty much all been said.

The reason why there is no record of the 'wheat' individually standing up for the truth is because, like Jesus, they were opposed and brutally murdered to silence them......in ways that no Christian disciple could ever have entertained.

Did the church keep a record of every person they tortured and killed in the inquisition?

In Revelation 20:4, it says...."And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God..."

This indicates that God remembers them. He remembers those who perpetrated those crimes too.

Spanish Inquisition Torture Methods

A lot of Catholics are poorly educated. Case in point, a third of American Catholics either don't believe that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ, or don't know that this is what the Church has taught since the time of the Apostles. That's not the Catholics you've met lying to you or the Church lying to them, that's just very bad follow-up on making sure the kids learned their faith and stayed informed.

The Catholic people I have encountered in over 40 years of personal visits to their homes, by and large have no clue about very much at all pertaining to their beliefs. Many don't even know the difference between a Bible and the Catechism. Like a lot of people in Christendom, they are not taught to do anything but simply to perform what they are told to do. Christendom breeds the laziest "Christians" because they are taught a very hazy outline of doctrines defined by their church, and given the impression that if they show up, put their money in the box and eat a piece of bread...and maybe take a sip of wine, that all will go well for them with God. They don't have to know much, because their priest or minister knows it all for them.

They are all going to heaven.....

The Pharisees placed too much emphasis on ritual and not enough on mercy and justice....this so evident in the church's history.

Matthew 23:23
Jesus said...."Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was necessary to do, yet not to disregard the other things.24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!"

Luke 11:42
"But woe to you Pharisees, because you give the tenth of the mint and of the rue and of every other garden herb, but you disregard the justice and the love of God! These things you were under obligation to do, but not to disregard those other things."

Christians cannot be moronic puppets performing rituals that are a mystery to most of them. If they are ignorant, then whose fault is that? When I have studied the Bible with Catholic people, they are hungry for answers to all their questions.....answers that the church never provides....and accuses them of not having faith in the church if they ask them, so they slink back into silence.

In my personal experience, whenever I have encountered priests in my ministry, they can't answer those questions themselves.....so who is remiss in providing the knowledge? Catholics might know their catechism, but they don't know very much at all about their Bible. They are taught church theology, not Biblical Christianity.

Someone doesn't know Christian history. I suppose you never heard of the Assyrian Church of the East, the Oriental Orthodox or the Eastern Orthodox, not to mention the dozens of heretical groups? If what you say is true, then why didn't God have the Arians compile the Bible? At least their beliefs were somewhat similar to yours, and they were the group in power within the Roman Empire for several decades. Even after that, the Arians enjoyed the favor of the Visigoths. Why do we see the Bible being compiled by the Catholics/Orthodox/Assyrians (they were all still one at this point in history) and not by the Arians?

That's easy......they were all 'weeds'. There were no 'wheat' organized into "churches" or groups......the 'wheat' were in among the weeds, growing together with them....remember? They were distinguishable only by their opposition to the 'orthodox' view of God's word....and paid dearly for daring to voice their concerns.

The Arians rejected the trinity, but that is their only similarity. There are churches in Christendom who reject the trinity too. That isn't all there is to the truth.....O, if only it was that simple!

Since the weeds were planted by the devil all those centuries ago, and there is now an infinite variety as Protestantism sprouted lots more, he has catered to every religious taste.....from the apathetic puppets, all the way to the rigid fundamentalists and everything in between. Look at the charismatic churches....all doing their tricks but nothing resembling the miracles performed in the first century.....I wonder why the holy spirit lost its power? Why can't they resurrect the dead? Why do most of their 'healings' never work?

The devil doesn't care what persuasion entraps you, as long as you are not on the 'cramped and narrow road' to life.

The big picture is very clear to me, but seems to escape a lot of people who seem so focused on small details that they have lost sight of where we are, and why we are here. Like Israel, we are poised on the brink of our 'Promised Land'.....satan will only keep applying the pressure as this world sinks to its lowest moral and spiritual ebb ever. If you do not know what is coming, there is no way that you can prepare for it. We all have a choice to be part of the problem....or part of the solution.....its a bit sad when you can't tell the difference.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Since the weeds were planted by the devil all those centuries ago, and there is now an infinite variety as Protestantism sprouted lots more, he has catered to every religious taste.....from the apathetic puppets, all the way to the rigid fundamentalists and everything in between.

Does that include you org?

That's easy......they were all 'weeds'. There were no 'wheat' organized into "churches" or groups......the 'wheat' were in among the weeds, growing together with them....remember? They were distinguishable only by their opposition to the 'orthodox' view of God's word....and paid dearly for daring to voice their concerns.

So, God allowed the "weeds" to assemble the Bible, with it's many errors, and then finally in 1934 (or so) He had the witnesses change a few words to make it correct?

That's easy......they were all 'weeds'. There were no 'wheat' organized into "churches" or groups

How can you be so gullible to believe there were no, or not enough Christians in the world from the time of the last Apostle until 1914? You actually come across like you believe satan is much more powerful than God. In your logic, God didn't care about anyone that lived from the last Apostle until your org was formed. That's is ludicrous!

 

[Deeje]

Who says the Jews were in apostasy for centuries before Christ came? Whenever the people of Israel went astray, there were always prophets who arose. Sure, there was corruption in the religious hierarchy, but the people of Israel still kept the faith.

Please think for a moment how long it had been since God sent a prophet to Israel when Jesus arrived. Over 400 years had elapsed since Jehovah's last prophet was sent to warn Israel of God's displeasure with them......
They were told.....

Malachi 3:13-18:
“Your words against me have been strong,” says Jehovah.

And you say: “How have we spoken against you among ourselves?”

14 “You say, ‘It is of no value to serve God. How have we benefited by keeping our obligations to him and by walking somberly before Jehovah of armies? 15 Now we consider presumptuous people happy. Also, those who practice wickedness are successful. They dare to put God to the test and get away with it.’”

16 At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance was written before him for those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name.

17 “And they will be mine,” says Jehovah of armies, “in the day when I produce a special property. I will show them compassion, just as a man shows compassion to his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between a righteous person and a wicked person, between one serving God and one not serving him.”

When Jesus came, he was not sent to the Jewish religious leaders....he was sent to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" because those leaders were incorrigibly wicked. Jesus sentenced them to "gehenna" (the punishment of eternal death. Matthew 23:33)

When Israel's leaders became corrupt, they corrupted the whole nation. This is why God punished the entire nation and not just individuals within it. When he sent Israel into Babylonian exile, Daniel, (who was renamed Belteshazzar by the Babylonians in an attempt to assimilate the Israelites into Babylonian life and worship) Hananiah (given the name Shaʹdrach) Mishael (Meshach) and to Azariah, (renamed A·bedʹne·go) these young men were of strong faith and demonstrated their determination not to be swayed by the Babylonian religion at all. Their faithful record is not in the Bible for nothing, as many faithful ones would also find themselves captives in Babylon the great, enduring similar tests of their faith. Just as the faithful ones were freed to return to their spiritual home at God's direction, so those in Babylon the great were set free to return to God's pure worship. (Revelation 18:4-5)

The special property of which the prophet Malachi spoke was spiritual Israel.....the anointed disciples of Jesus....God's last prophet.

That's why our icons deliberately aren't anything like Classical art, which tries to accurately capture the physical.

That is an excuse....another justification. There were no images used in Israel's worship, and none in original Christianity for the same reason. It was forbidden to make them. Finding loopholes in God's law is dangerous.

The Church has believed in the Trinity since the get-go.

Correction.....I believe that the trinity has been part of the apostasy from the get-go. Changing the identity of God has led to more and more ungodly doctrines.

The First/Second Commandment (depending on how you number them) states that we are not to make images and serve (Greek: latreia) them. The word "idolatry" comes from "eidololatreia", or "the rendering of sacred service to images". Latreia is used exclusively for religious worship. Nowhere does a Christian ever render latreia to an icon. THAT is, quite literally, idolatry, for then the icon becomes an idol, and that is unacceptable in Christian worship.

Another justification...tell it to Jehovah and see if he accepts it.

This is idolatry.....plain as day.

Actually, they accused Him of claiming to be divine. There is no definite article before the "theos" in question, though it's nice that you admit the consensus in how to render John 10:33.

"The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, maketh thyself God." (Douay)

Please remember who made the accusation......Jews only knew one God. To claim divinity was blasphemy, a breach of the first Commandment....an excuse to stone Jesus to death. Translation issues notwithstanding, the Jews wanted an excuse to get rid of Jesus the only way the Romans would let them...legally. He had to be shown to be breaking their law. When Pilate found him innocent of any charge deserving the death penalty, they resorted to accusing him of treason, so fearing the powers above him, (treason was a capital offense) Pilate caved in to their demands, having Jesus flogged for good measure to appease them.

Actually, even then He's still not off the hook, because He just said that He and the Father are one--i.e. they share the same nature.

Is that what he said?
John 10:30...."I and the Father are one......
John 17:11....“Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given to me, that they may be one just as we are one."
John 17:22...."And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one" (Douay)

This isn't "one" as in combining three persons in a triune godhead.....this is a unity of thought and purpose shared by all who worship the true God.....unless you see all Christians as part of the godhead too....?

In addition, when Satan tempts Jesus to worship (proskyneo) him, Jesus says that worship (proskyneo) is for God alone. When Cornelius worships (proskyneo) Peter, Peter immediately stops him and says "I, too, am a man." When John flips out and worships (proskyneo) an angel out of fear, the angel stops him immediately. Yet when the Apostles worship (proskyneo) Jesus just prior to His ascension in Luke 24, He doesn't stop them, despite having once told Satan that worship (proskyneo) is for God alone.

"Proskyneo" can be translated either way....both as "worship" such as directed to God and as "respectful honor" directed to someone who merits it. In the instances you quoted, those receiving the 'proskyneo' are aware of which way that honor is directed. If it was rejected, then it was done in a wrong way. If it was accepted, then the honor was merited. Who merited respectful honor more than the son of God?

In every single other instance in the New Testament where the verb proskyneo is used, it's used for God or Jesus. The Wise Men from the East (most likely Persian) worshiped (proskyneo) Jesus as a king, reflecting ancient Near Eastern/Greco-Roman practice of worshiping your king/emperor as a living god.

The 'magi' who visited the child Jesus, were not bringing gifts to a god...they were honoring the son of royalty, as was their custom. The so called "wise men" were more likely Babylonian astrologers, (magi is a word from which we derive "magic"...the practice of magic and fortune telling was completely forbidden in God's word. see Deuteronomy 18:9-12) These men were used by the devil in an attempt to kill Jesus before he was even able to grow up and become that royal personage. Christendom's Christmas nativity scene is a sham.

Read Matthew ch. 2....the magi were never at the stable. The star was sent by the devil to trick unbelieving pagans into getting Jesus killed....and yet look what place it has in Christmas celebrations! You have been conned as much as the magi were.

The "star" led them to Herod, not to Bethlehem where Jesus was a young child (not a new born infant) living in a house with his parents. (Matthew 2:7-12)
How do we know that they were not at the stable? Because the sin offering given by Mary and Joseph was two turtle doves...the offering of the poor. If they were in possession of the expensive gifts given by the magi, then they were committing a gross sin by not offering what they could now afford.

God was way ahead of the devil and warned the astrologers not to return to Herod. Joseph too was warned to take Jesus to a safe place. Why would God use pagan practicers of what he condemns to herald the birth of his son? He revealed that to Jewish shepherds.

You want to talk about the origins of Christmas?

We worship one God with one Divine Essence, Who exists without separation in three distinct Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Another justification based on what? A need to depart from the concept of the one God of Israel? (Deuteronomy 6:4) Who do you suppose thought up that one? How do you make a pagan trinity fit the Jewish model....squeeze them all into one head.

Show me a trinity from the Bible? Show me Christ ever saying that he was God and should be worshiped? Show me where the holy spirit is ever called "God".

These arguments are so easily shot down Shiranui....why do you persist in trying to promote them?

Your defense is looking very thin IMO.

 

[Deeje]

How can you be so gullible to believe there were no, or not enough Christians in the world from the time of the last Apostle until 1914? You actually come across like you believe satan is much more powerful than God. In your logic, God didn't care about anyone that lived from the last Apostle until your org was formed. That's is ludicrous!

Lets see what's ludicrous or not shall we? I am not going to go there with you djh...it just feeds your obsession. Do you understand why you have one?

You can just go along and believe whatever your heart tells you is right. But understand that God reads hearts as well as words. We will let him decide who is telling the truth....shall we?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Show me a trinity from the Bible? Show me Christ ever saying that he was God and should be worshiped? Show me where the holy spirit is ever called "God".

You're trying to make your argument from silence, that doesn't work.

How about this verse,

Matthew 28:19 (ESV Strong's) 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

One name for all three persons of the Trinity! And what name is that, you ask?

Acts 10:48 (ESV Strong's) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Does that include you org?

So, God allowed the "weeds" to assemble the Bible, with it's many errors, and then finally in 1934 (or so) He had the witnesses change a few words to make it correct?

How can you be so gullible to believe there were no, or not enough Christians in the world from the time of the last Apostle until 1914? You actually come across like you believe satan is much more powerful than God. In your logic, God didn't care about anyone that lived from the last Apostle until your org was formed. That's is ludicrous!

Lets see what's ludicrous or not shall we? I am not going to go there with you djh...it just feeds your obsession. Do you understand why you have one?

You can just go along and believe whatever your heart tells you is right. But understand that God reads hearts as well as words. We will let him decide who is telling the truth....shall we?

How come?

You call it obsession, I call it passion! Isn't that what you call it for yourself? It's an obsession for me, but it's a passion for you? It's your "Christian duty" to warn people of the errors being taught, but since I don't believe like you, I'm a servant of satan spreading lies?

 

[Deeje]

So did the Archangel Michael grow in wisdom and power during his earthly life over and above what he had before being born as a human baby? Or is it the case that Jesus laid aside His glory, His power and much of His knowledge prior to becoming incarnate?

See the last two paragraphs in this post.

As a child growing up in a normal Jewish family, Jesus had no knowledge of his former life in heaven....only what his mother may have told him about the angel Gabriel's message. It was not until his baptism at the age of 30, that all prior knowledge was returned to him. His experiences as a normal human (with no powers or supernatural abilities except what was demonstrated in his amazing mental capacity from an early age) this is what Jesus took back with him to heaven...empathy for the human condition, demonstrated throughout his ministry. His co-rulers were chosen for the same reason. All of them have lived life as human beings and will be the best rulers and priests we could ever have. (Hebrews 4:15)

In Revelation 19:12, it is said that Jesus has a name written on His forehead, which no one knows but Himself. By your logic, wouldn't this mean that Jesus knows things that the Father does not?

Since it is God who gives Jesus his new name, I don't see how your argument stands up. (Philippians 2:9-11; Revelation 3:12)

2 Corinthians 3:17 is a good start to this conversation.

"Now the Lord is a Spirit. And where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (Douay)

Really? That's all you have? Does the Bible tell us that God is a spirit? Does it say that God is the holy spirit or that the holy spirit is the power that emanates from God to accomplish his will? Try again.

Of course.

How does a flesh and blood human exist in heaven?

The apostle Peter wrote..."For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit." (1 Peter 3:18)

Paul wrote..."But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom..." (1 Corinthians 15:50)

He went on to say in vs 42-45..."So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."

The apostles were eager to leave their flesh behind to take on a spirit body in order to exist in heaven with Jesus. To be baptized into Jesus' death, meant being raised in a spirit body like he was. To say that Jesus went bodily to heaven is not scriptural. Angels had to materialize human bodies in order to appear to God's earthly servants, but in order to return to the spirit realm, they had to dematerialize and return to their spirit form. Jesus did the same thing after his resurrection. He was sitting among the disciples and simply disappeared before their eyes. The various accounts said that he "appeared" to his disciples on many occasions and people saw him. But there is no mention of him living with them for the 40 days before he returned to heaven, as he had done for the previous three and a half years as their teacher and constant companion.
In order to return to heaven, he had to be given an appropriate body like he had before he came to earth.

By that logic, why would God pay a ransom to a kidnapper in the first place? Surely He isn't beholden to anything else in the universe?

My answer: We were purchased with God's own blood (Acts 20:28), but not that God paid a ransom to death with His blood, but such that by His death on the cross in the flesh, He led captivity captive.

The "ransom" was demanded by God's perfect justice. The law of God stated that 'a life was to be given for a life taken'. The life that Adam lost was his own, forfeited for his own sin, but the life he took from his children had no one to account for it. This is why Jesus was sent from heaven to become the "last Adam" to pay the debt left to Adam's children and to set them free from the sin inherited from him. (Roman 5:12, 17-19)

Paul wrote in Hebrews 5:7-10..."During his life on earth, Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, 10 because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek."

Jesus "learned obedience from the things he suffered. And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him" ....does that describe God by any stretch of anyone's imagination? How does one part of God "learn" to be obedient to another equal part of himself? How can God be made any more "perfect" than he already is?

 

[Deeje]

"Christian duty" to warn people of the errors being taught, but since I don't believe like you, I'm a servant of satan spreading lies?

OK...if you say so.....

but I am happy to let God decide that....why aren't you?

If you want to bash JW's go and start another thread and watch it die like all the others you have started. Your 'passion' is an obsession as far as I can see......it's sad really.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

If you want to bash JW's go and start another thread and watch it die like all the others you have started.

Lol, is that all you have? You are still "avoiding" answering my posts, is it because you can't truthfully reply?

Your 'passion' is an obsession as far as I can see......it's sad really.

I guess your "obsession" with Catholics is "passion" correct?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

It's your "Christian duty" to warn people of the errors being taught, but since I don't believe like you, I'm a servant of satan spreading lies?

OK...if you say so.....

but I am happy to let God decide that....why aren't you?

This is your response to my post? You can't answer it truthfully because it would make you look bad, so you avoid it! I post "quotes" from your own teachers literature and you can't refute it.

I'm sure you have already made that decision also!

 

[djhwoodwerks]

We will let him decide who is telling the truth....shall we?

Well, we know that a witness cannot 'honestly' say they are telling the truth. What they can and should say is, 'as of this moment, I am telling the truth'. Because a witness never knows when they'll be told that "new light" was given to the 'slave'. A witness can go to a person and tell them what they believe today, then have to go back (or they should anyway) next week and tell them, 'remember what I said last week? Well, our blessed brothers received "new light" and that isn't true anymore, it's changed to this now. See how Jehovah is guiding us!"

But the apostles made mistakes in the timing of the Kingdom's coming too, so we are in good company. (Acts 1:6)

Oh please! They were curious, they didn't TEACH it, there's a BIG difference! Your teachers alluded to the end coming, which in turn hurt many people. You are far from being in company with the Apostles!

Acts 1:6 (ESV Strong's) 6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

It's real sad actually. All the witnesses believed the end was coming in 1975, (and please don't say they didn't. People were quitting their jobs, taking their kids out of school, selling their belongings all to get ready for the end) "Christendom" rejected it, and who was right? Lol, NOT your teachers!

 

[metis]

In my personal experience, whenever I have encountered priests in my ministry, they can't answer those questions themselves.....so who is remiss in providing the knowledge? Catholics might know their catechism, but they don't know very much at all about their Bible. They are taught church theology, not Biblical Christianity.

The average parish priest in the U.S. has the rough equivalent of a graduate (masters) degree, especially the Jesuits that are a major teaching order that largely have ph.d.'s here in the States.

What's your educational level, Deeje? My guess is that you won't answer this question but will either ignore it or deflect it.

Catholics, including priests, are not brought up to engage in a theological-karate match, generally preferring a "to each his/her own" approach. And I don't hear nor read them ranting and raving and trying to tear other religions or denominations down, including yours.

IMO, it isn't intelligence or having politically-correct dogmas that makes one a good person, but how one behaves. But, with JW's, it's largely p-c dogmas that are paramount, with faith in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit taking a back seat. One would think that the latter would be paramount, but look at how you and other JW's literally condemn any other Christian denomination even though they teach about the importance of believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

And then the JW's do what is God's role, namely judging others even though Jesus said not to do that. How can one believe in Jesus and yet ignore that basic teaching? In Romans, Paul asks who can be God's counselor, thus saying that this is not our role? But the JW's obviously don't believe in Paul either.

Anyone can cut any person or any organization down by only focusing in on negatives. If you took all the screw-ups I've committed in my life without mentioning any of the positives I've done (few as they are), I'd look really bad.

Your posts on the CC reflect a hate-filled bigotry that the JW has taught you to believe with so much of it based on propaganda, even though some of which is true w/o doubt, but minus any of the positive things the church has done. As a Jew, there's a lot I can say that's negative about the church if you remember our history, but fortunately the church confessed to its mistakes and has made amends and adjustment to try and make sure nothing like that happens again to any group.

I studied the Holocaust here, in Poland, and in Israel, and I've met with Catholic officials both here and in Poland, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that they are really trying hard to stop anti-Semitism, racism, and other forms of bigotry.

OTOH, the JW's are feeding the latter with their religious bigotry, teaching their followers that it's "my way or the highway", and with faith in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit being far less important than politically-correct dogmas, while at the same time ignoring what both Jesus and Paul taught about not judging others.

Catholics are taught not to judge others, so who believes more in Jesus, Deeje? Think about it.

 

[Deeje]

The average parish priest in the U.S. has the rough equivalent of a graduate (masters) degree, especially the Jesuits that are a major teaching order that largely have ph.d.'s here in the States.

What's your educational level, Deeje? My guess is that you won't answer this question but will either ignore it or deflect it.

Can I ask you what degrees or diplomas Jesus and his apostles had? What schools did they attend? Can you tell me why Jesus deliberately chose uneducated men as the foundations of his church? The educational standards of those who were taught in those schools, were not recognized by Jesus, and the schools that turn out Christendom's clergy, I do not believe are recognized by God or his Christ either.

The schools in first century Judaism were turning out indoctrinated fakes like their teachers, not men of faith like Abraham or Moses.
They had departed from the sound teachings of the scriptures to promote their own traditions, which Jesus said 'made the word of God invalid'. (Matthew 15:6, 14)

I am part of an educational system that has no graduation...no degrees or diplomas. I am a perpetual student who will never know all there is to know about God and his word. I continue to learn and have completed my first 45 years of this course....with no end in sight. How many in Christendom attend a short course to earn a meaningless degree in what...? "Theology"?...that is Christendom's version of Christianity....it isn't necessarily God's. As in Judaism, I can see no truth being taught in those institutions.

Catholics, including priests, are not brought up to engage in a theological-karate match, generally preferring a "to each his/her own" approach. And I don't hear nor read them ranting and raving and trying to tear other religions or denominations down, including yours.

You mean that they are not trained to defend their faith?
The apostle Peter wrote...."But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect."

If we are unable to defend our faith, it means that our faith is blind. We have to know what we believe and why we believe it, so that we can impart it intelligently to others. Those Catholic people with whom I have spoken and studied over many years, had the questions, lots of them.....but their own priests did not have the answers. Why?

IMO, it isn't intelligence or having politically-correct dogmas that makes one a good person, but how one behaves.

What is with the PC thing? Political correctness has nothing to do with Bible truth. People need to know what is taught in a religious denomination if they are to make an informed choice about where they stand. At this juncture in history, when the world is falling apart around our ears, we need answers, not the performance of mindless ritual and some vague hope of heaven.

Can I ask you where it says in scripture that God will save "good" people? The Bible makes it very plain that God will only save "obedient" ones....those "doing the will of God"...not just the ones talking about it or making excuses for why they fail to do it. As Jesus said..."if a blind man leads a blind man both will fall into the pit". If you don't know that your guides are blind, then a fall is inevitable. It is decision time and the truth is out there for all to see. Where do you stand metis?

with JW's, it's largely p-c dogmas that are paramount, with faith in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit taking a back seat. One would think that the latter would be paramount, but look at how you and other JW's literally condemn any other Christian denomination even though they teach about the importance of believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

Look at how Jesus condemned the very ones who purported to worship his God and Father. These were his own spiritual "brothers"! Was he kind in his condemnation...did he tip-toe around them so as not to hurt their feelings? Or did he expose them for the religious frauds that they were? (Matthew 23:13-33) He did not think about political correctness...and neither should we. There is no time to beat around the bush.

And then the JW's do what is God's role, namely judging others even though Jesus said not to do that. How can one believe in Jesus and yet ignore that basic teaching? In Romans, Paul asks who can be God's counselor, thus saying that this is not our role? But the JW's obviously don't believe in Paul either.

We present to people the truth as we see it. It is as plain as the nose on our faces, and when we present the facts to others, we are inviting them to make some very difficult choices....but these choices may save their lives. We do not force our message on anyone, but we do not hold back in telling the truth any more than Jesus did. The lost sheep respond and come into the pen of the Fine Shepherd of their own volition.

You cannot make an informed choice without all the information.......that is not judging, it is telling the whole truth...a very inconvenient one to many because of what it means. Like the first century disciples, they had to recognize that what Jesus was telling them was truth and come out of that corrupt system.....people have the same option today.

Your posts on the CC reflect a hate-filled bigotry that the JW has taught you to believe with so much of it based on propaganda, even though some of which is true w/o doubt, but minus any of the positive things the church has done.

I have no hate for Catholic people...in fact some of my dearest friends are former Catholics.....I have Catholic neighbors with whom I get along fine. But I have the same attitude towards the Leaders of the RCC as Jesus had towards the Pharisees......you be the judge of what I hate. Was Jesus a bigot?

We also need to be the judge of what real propaganda is......because, falling for it is the reason why Jesus said "few" are on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14)
It is not hatred that prompts us to call on people of all faiths...it is love for God, love for our neighbor and obedience to his Christ. (Matthew 28:19-20) He said that his message would be preached "in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before "the end" would come. (Matthew 24:14) Should I wait for Christendom's members to call on me with that message? They don't even know what that message is...and they don't see the need to preach either. Why?

As a Jew, there's a lot I can say that's negative about the church if you remember our history, but fortunately the church confessed to its mistakes and has made amends and adjustment to try and make sure nothing like that happens again to any group.

So, you are "Jewish" now? Sorry metis, but now its you changing the goalposts.

It isn't just about the Catholic Church's failure to stand up to the Nazi's persecution of the Jews.....its about their teachings that are were adopted from paganism so long ago that there is no recognition on the part of the flock that what they are taught to believe is even remotely true. That is real indoctrination. This thread has enough information for any and all to evaluate things for themselves. We all have the free will to do that.

I studied the Holocaust here, in Poland, and in Israel, and I've met with Catholic officials both here and in Poland, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that they are really trying hard to stop anti-Semitism, racism, and other forms of bigotry.

What has the holocaust got to do with what we are discussing on this thread metis? If there is a reason to be "anti" anything.....first and foremost we should be "anti" anything that is not truth. All the other "anti's" will naturally fall in line.
If we are not promoting truth, then we are promoting falsehood.....there is nothing in between as far as God is concerned. We are all either "sheep" or "goats" when the judgment comes.....now is the time to decide what we want to be.

OTOH, the JW's are feeding the latter with their religious bigotry, teaching their followers that it's "my way or the highway", and with faith in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit being far less important than politically-correct dogmas, while at the same time ignoring what both Jesus and Paul taught about not judging others.

"My way or the highway" is not a JW teaching....it is the Bible's teaching. 'The Christ does not exist divided'....For one to be accepted as part of God's nation, they had to believe all that Jews believed and follow all the laws set out in the Torah. There was no room for bringing in your own version of things. God's laws were absolute and failure to uphold them meant either death or excommunication. The same applied to Christianity, as Paul said....

"Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."

.....That hardly applies to the divided state of Christendom and is the reason why we must be no part of her.

It is not religious bigotry to expose false religion, otherwise you would have to convict Christ and his apostles on the same grounds. Even John the baptist was not kind in his condemnation of the Pharisees. (Matthew 3:7) It is truth that exposes error....but so often truth is the casualty of those who simply want to justify their own actions...or lack of them.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

What's your educational level, Deeje? My guess is that you won't answer this question but will either ignore it or deflect it.

Can I ask you what degrees or diplomas Jesus and his apostles had? What schools did they attend? Can you tell me why Jesus deliberately chose uneducated men as the foundations of his church? The educational standards of those who were taught in those schools, were not recognized by Jesus, and the schools that turn out Christendom's clergy, I do not believe are recognized by God or his Christ either.

The schools in first century Judaism were turning out indoctrinated fakes like their teachers, not men of faith like Abraham or Moses.
They had departed from the sound teachings of the scriptures to promote their own traditions, which Jesus said 'made the word of God invalid'. (Matthew 15:6, 14)

I am part of an educational system that has no graduation...no degrees or diplomas. I am a perpetual student who will never know all there is to know about God and his word. I continue to learn and have completed my first 45 years of this course....with no end in sight. How many in Christendom attend a short course to earn a meaningless degree in what...? "Theology"?...that is Christendom's version of Christianity....it isn't necessarily God's. As in Judaism, I can see no truth being taught in those institutions.

Lol, you called that one right metis!

 

[djhwoodwerks]

The schools in first century Judaism were turning out indoctrinated fakes like their teachers,

Matthew 23:1-3 (ESV Strong's) 1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do.

People need to know what is taught in a religious denomination if they are to make an informed choice about where they stand.

Unless of course, it's your "religious denomination" correct? You don't want anyone to know the truth about your org until you get them in and indoctrinated? I quote exactly what is published in your own literature, and it makes you angry that people get to see it.

The Bible makes it very plain that God will only save "obedient" ones....those "doing the will of God"...not just the ones talking about it or making excuses for why they fail to do it.

"Very plain" huh, how did this man, "do the will of God"? All he did was, turn to Jesus! He didn't go door to door, he didn't say the name "Jehovah" so many times. How did he make it?

Luke 23:42-43 (ESV Strong's) And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”