Ideas concerning the cross. || JESUS ADHERENTS ONLY.

[metis]

Are you a Jesus adherent? The title of the thread clearly states that this debate is for Jesus adherents.

I had debated as to whether I should participate in this thread but decided to do so because I taught Catholic theology for 14 years, as the'd become "the center of attraction" here, plus I do agree with much of what Jesus taught largely in the areas of compassion and justice.

OTOH, if you or anyone feels I shouldn't post here, just let me know and I'll bogie-out.

 

[Desert Snake]

Before anyone's sins are Forgiven they have to Repent of the sin and ask God for his forgiveness of their sin.

Verse? Sins are forgiven via the sacrifice. That is also why it is a conditional sacrifice.

 

[Desert Snake]

He did correct the Jews. He said they accused him of claiming to be God......he said he wasn't...only that he was "God's son" and so, not guilty of blasphemy at all. No grounds for stoning him. How can you not see that?

John 1:10
That's about as clear as it gets.

We are not to practice polytheism, so either Jesus is not God or you trinitarians are worshipping more than one God, breaking the first Commandment.

Jesus is plainly called 'God', as deity in Hebraic belief is always God. //not polytheism.

No, he rose from the dead because his Father resurrected him as he promised. Jesus died and was buried in a tomb for three days and nights, just as he said he would. He paid for what Adam did to us. He gave a perfect sinless life, for the perfect sinless life Adam took from his children. Part of God did not die....no part of God could. The Word could only become flesh because he was mortal to begin with. All spirit creatures, even God's firstborn were created mortal....i.e. they can die. Immortality is indestructible life. Everlasting life is not immortality...they are very different.

Jesus is before any other creation, He pre-exists Israel.

Mary was not sinless....not immaculately conceived.

Wherever you're getting this material, it isn't Christian. Literal Son of God, isn't exactly the same as others; have you even read a standard Bible? Son of God is literal, your revised bible, or whatever it is, has nothing to do with Christianity.

No, he is three different people who can all exist in three different places at once.....but there is only one God....right?

Right. It is a singular plurality godhood, it always was.

Genesis 1:26

 

[Deeje]

Thank you syncretic.....great responses deserve equally great responses....

John 1:10
That's about as clear as it gets.

Is it?
John 10:1...
"He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him."

Please notice what John is saying here. He said that all things came into existence "through" the son, but not "by" him. Do you understand that this is speaking about 'agency" here? In Revelation 3:14, John called Jesus "the beginning of the creation by God", so the son is a created being. He is from God and therefore divine, but he is not God. Jesus identified the Father as "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3)

This agrees with Paul who wrote at Colossians 1:15-17....
"He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; 16 for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

Jesus is plainly called 'God', as deity in Hebraic belief is always God. //not polytheism.

He is called "theos" which can also mean one who is ordained with divine authority. Jesus said that Jehovah himself called human judges "gods" (John 10:34-36) and remember that he also made Moses "God" to Pharaoh. (Exodus 7:1) He didn't mean that they were "God" like Jehovah....but those who had his divine authority.

Jesus is before any other creation, He pre-exists Israel.

Yes, he precedes all things in heaven and on earth.

What is the meaning of the term "only begotten"? (monogenes)
Someone who is "begotten" needs a 'begetter'. God's "firstborn" was a creation of his God and Father.....the first of many "sons" but not created in the same way as they were. The "firstborn" was the only direct creation of his Father and hence all other things came through the agency of the son.

Proverbs 8:30-31...
"then I was beside him, like a master workman; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the sons of men."

Scholars agree that this is referring to the son of God as "Wisdom personified".

It says in Proverbs 8:22
"The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old."

Since God has always been wise, this cannot be talking about literal wisdom.

Right. It is a singular plurality godhood, it always was.

Genesis 1:26

This is talking about the same situation as Proverbs 8.....creation was a team effort. When God said "let US create...." he was addressing his firstborn....he was not talking to himself.

Wherever you're getting this material, it isn't Christian. Literal Son of God, isn't exactly the same as others; have you even read a standard Bible? Son of God is literal, your revised bible, or whatever it is, has nothing to do with Christianity.

I have to say that it is Christendom who is promoting "unchristian" material. It's just been around a long time, so no one questions it. I did because I was raised with those beliefs and nothing made sense to me.

None of the scriptures I posted is from the NWT. Perhaps it is you who have been hoodwinked by ancient lies....?

 

[Shiranui117]

Thank you syncretic.....great responses deserve equally great responses....

Is it?
John 10:1...
"He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him."

Please notice what John is saying here. He said that all things came into existence "through" the son, but not "by" him. Do you understand that this is speaking about 'agency" here? In Revelation 3:14, John called Jesus "the beginning of the creation by God", so the son is a created being. He is from God and therefore divine, but he is not God. Jesus identified the Father as "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3)

This agrees with Paul who wrote at Colossians 1:15-17....
"He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; 16 for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

He is called "theos" which can also mean one who is ordained with divine authority. Jesus said that Jehovah himself called human judges "gods" (John 10:34-36) and remember that he also made Moses "God" to Pharaoh. (Exodus 7:1) He didn't mean that they were "God" like Jehovah....but those who had his divine authority.

Yes, he precedes all things in heaven and on earth.

What is the meaning of the term "only begotten"? (monogenes)
Someone who is "begotten" needs a 'begetter'. God's "firstborn" was a creation of his God and Father.....the first of many "sons" but not created in the same way as they were. The "firstborn" was the only direct creation of his Father and hence all other things came through the agency of the son.

Proverbs 8:30-31...
"then I was beside him, like a master workman; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the sons of men."

Scholars agree that this is referring to the son of God as "Wisdom personified".

It says in Proverbs 8:22
"The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old."

Since God has always been wise, this cannot be talking about literal wisdom.

This is talking about the same situation as Proverbs 8.....creation was a team effort. When God said "let US create...." he was addressing his firstborn....he was not talking to himself.



I have to say that it is Christendom who is promoting "unchristian" material. It's just been around a long time, so no one questions it. I did because I was raised with those beliefs and nothing made sense to me.

None of the scriptures I posted is from the NWT. Perhaps it is you who have been hoodwinked by ancient lies....?

I checked both the Masoretic Text and the Septuagint on this, and this is what I found...

MT: The LORD made me as the beginning of His way, the first of His works of old.
LXX: The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works.

Let me ask you, what is the beginning of God's way? Does God have a beginning? It is true that Jesus is begotten of the Father. It is also clear that Jesus wasn't just begotten at the beginning of creation. Jesus was begotten at the beginning of God's ways. Verse 23 states that Wisdom was established before time itself existed. There was, therefore, never a time when the Son was not.

 

[Deeje]

Let me ask you, what is the beginning of God's way? Does God have a beginning? It is true that Jesus is begotten of the Father. It is also clear that Jesus wasn't just begotten at the beginning of creation. Jesus was begotten at the beginning of God's ways. Verse 23 states that Wisdom was established before time itself existed. There was, therefore, never a time when the Son was not.

As an eternal being, Jehovah never had a beginning and will never have an end. The "beginning" as described in scripture pertains to the beginning of God's creation. Before he became a Creator Jehovah was alone in his own space, self-contained and needing nothing and no one. He has always possessed his cardinal qualities of love justice, wisdom and power.

At 1 John 4:8 it says..."Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love". The Bibles says that God possesses wisdom and power and his sense of justice is perfect......but it say he "IS" love, which means that he is the epitome of that quality.....it motivates everything he does.

Proverbs 8:22-23....
"Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,
The earliest of his achievements of long ago.
23 From ancient times I was installed,
From the start, from times earlier than the earth."

So, I cannot totally agree that the entity identified as "Wisdom" was "established before time itself", because we simply have no knowledge of the infinite past and when God began counting time. Perhaps it was with his creation...? All we can do is be guided by what the scriptures say. The only "beginning" recorded was the beginning of creation which the Bible says was with his Firstborn....God's "only begotten son". He said "times earlier than the earth" so we know it was before all material creation and even before the creation of God's spirit sons. Everything owes its existence to the combined efforts of the Father, his master workman at his side, and the operation of his holy spirit.

 

[Desert Snake]

Thank you syncretic.....great responses deserve equally great responses....

Yes, I noticed that.

Is it?
John 10:1...
"He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him."

The Bible I linked to has 'by Him'.

Please notice what John is saying here. He said that all things came into existence "through" the son, but not "by" him. Do you understand that this is speaking about 'agency" here? In Revelation 3:14, John called Jesus "the beginning of the creation by God", so the son is a created being. He is from God and therefore divine, but he is not God. Jesus identified the Father as "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3)

I've noticed both, varying by verse. The inference is that the difference between the words is of no consequence, because it is both 'by', and 'through'.
I believe it means the same thing.

This agrees with Paul who wrote at Colossians 1:15-17....
"He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; 16 for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

He is called "theos" which can also mean one who is ordained with divine authority. Jesus said that Jehovah himself called human judges "gods" (John 10:34-36) and remember that he also made Moses "God" to Pharaoh. (Exodus 7:1) He didn't mean that they were "God" like Jehovah....but those who had his divine authority.

Whether Theos is the same as 'elohim', they both mean God. Where it does not mean God, it is specified as 'another god', as someone elses god, so forth. There is no other specification, to this instance of 'Theos', and we assume the same methodology of inference style going from Hebrew and Aramaic , /the Apostles, to the Greek.

Yes, he precedes all things in heaven and on earth.

What is the meaning of the term "only begotten"? (monogenes)
Someone who is "begotten" needs a 'begetter'. God's "firstborn" was a creation of his God and Father.....the first of many "sons" but not created in the same way as they were. The "firstborn" was the only direct creation of his Father and hence all other things came through the agency of the son.

Proverbs 8:30-31...
"then I was beside him, like a master workman; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the sons of men."

Scholars agree that this is referring to the son of God as "Wisdom personified".

It says in Proverbs 8:22
"The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old."

Since God has always been wise, this cannot be talking about literal wisdom.



This is talking about the same situation as Proverbs 8.....creation was a team effort. When God said "let US create...." he was addressing his firstborn....he was not talking to himself.

Elohim isn't considered plural, there. If it was plural, it would mean 'gods', or something.

I have to say that it is Christendom who is promoting "unchristian" material. It's just been around a long time, so no one questions it. I did because I was raised with those beliefs and nothing made sense to me.

None of the scriptures I posted is from the NWT. Perhaps it is you who have been hoodwinked by ancient lies....?

No, this is merely the outcome of non polytheism. Polytheism can be inferred, by say, a demi-god. Hence, your theology is problematic for that, actually.


•

 

[Super Universe]

Yes, I noticed that.



The Bible I linked to has 'by Him'.


I've noticed both, varying by verse. The inference is that the difference between the words is of no consequence, because it is both 'by', and 'through'.
I believe it means the same thing.





Whether Theos is the same as 'elohim', they both mean God. Where it does not mean God, it is specified as 'another god', as someone elses god, so forth. There is no other specification, to this instance of 'Theos', and we assume the same methodology of inference style going from Hebrew and Aramaic , /the Apostles, to the Greek.




Elohim isn't considered plural, there. If it was plural, it would mean 'gods', or something.


No, this is merely the outcome of non polytheism. Polytheism can be inferred, by say, a demi-god. Hence, your theology is problematic for that, actually.

Anyways, this is not the original topic of the thread, the cross. I won't be discussing these other topics here.
•

The world came into existence through him means that this universe flows through Jesus' timeline. This universe is not the only universe. I could go into more detail but you would not understand.

The elohim, also known as the shining ones, is the name given by primitive humans to the angels. They were considered to be gods by the primitives.

 

[Deeje]

I've noticed both, varying by verse. The inference is that the difference between the words is of no consequence, because it is both 'by', and 'through'.
I believe it means the same thing.

If you go to Strongs, you will see how the word "through" G1223 is used in other verses.

Mat 1:22.....
Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through G1223 the prophet:

Mat 12:1.....
At that time Jesus went through G1223 the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.

Mat 12:43.....
“Now when the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through G1223 waterless places seeking rest, and does not find it.

Mat 19:24...
Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through G1223 the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

Luk 4:30
"But passing through G1223 their midst, He went His way."

It is used in other ways as well, but we can get the sense of how creation came from God, "through" the agency of his son.
There is only one Creator and it isn't Jesus. Working as his Father's assistant, (as in Genesis 1:26) he was used as the 'construction engineer' or 'fabricator' of the raw materials brought into existence by his God.

strongs=G1223&t=NASBGenesis 1:1 (NASB)

Whether Theos is the same as 'elohim', they both mean God. Where it does not mean God, it is specified as 'another god', as someone elses god, so forth. There is no other specification, to this instance of 'Theos', and we assume the same methodology of inference style going from Hebrew and Aramaic , /the Apostles, to the Greek.

Since the Greek language had no word for a singular god (like Jehovah) unless it had a name, substituting the divine name for a title has cast confusion on many verses; which is why the NWT has replaced "kyrios" with "Jehovah" in verses where the NT writer was quoting OT scripture that originally contained the tetragrammaton. It was never God's command to remove his name from his own book in the first place. The devil has taken full advantage of that substitution.

Elohim isn't considered plural, there. If it was plural, it would mean 'gods', or something.

Actually in Genesis 1:26, Elohim is plural according to Strongs....
" אֱלֹהִים ʼĕlôhîym, el-o-heem'; plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God"

Genesis 1:1 (NASB)

No, this is merely the outcome of non polytheism. Polytheism can be inferred, by say, a demi-god. Hence, your theology is problematic for that, actually.

That is not exactly true. Having three gods in one head is not Biblical. That is trying to escape polytheism with an excuse to worship more than one God. Never is God referred to as three persons in the Bible. The Jews had no notion of a trinity and Jesus was Jewish. My theology identifies Jesus as a divine mighty one authorized by his Father and acting as his representative on earth. He fits the description of "theos" (a god) but not "ho theos" THE God. (with the definite article)

 

[Desert Snake]

This is talking about the same situation as Proverbs 8.....creation was a team effort. When God said "let US create...." he was addressing his firstborn....he was not talking to himself.

There is only one Creator and it isn't Jesus.

^

Actually in Genesis 1:26, Elohim is plural according to Strongs....
" אֱלֹהִים ʼĕlôhîym, el-o-heem'; plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God"

If elohim is plural, in this verse, and in
Genesis 1:26
we note that it is 'let us make man in our image', then according to your own interpretation, this does make Jesus a creator.

 

[metis]

Elohim isn't considered plural, there. If it was plural, it would mean 'gods', or something.

Plus the modifiers used are singular.

 

[Deeje]

^

If elohim is plural, in this verse, and in
Genesis 1:26
we note that it is 'let us make man in our image', then according to your own interpretation, this does make Jesus a creator.

The Bible identifies the pre-human Jesus as the agency "through" whom creation was brought into existence. As the "master workman" he was part of the creative process but he was not the Creator. Nowhere in scripture is Jesus called the Creator. He never once called himself "God" and nowhere in scripture is the holy spirit called "God". No matter how you serve up the trinity, it is nor supported in scripture except where it is read into badly translated verses by biased translators.

 

[Desert Snake]

The Bible identifies the pre-human Jesus as the agency "through" whom creation was brought into existence. As the "master workman" he was part of the creative process but he was not the Creator. Nowhere in scripture is Jesus called the Creator. He never once called himself "God" and nowhere in scripture is the holy spirit called "God". No matter how you serve up the trinity, it is nor supported in scripture except where it is read into badly translated verses by biased translators.

Actually some of these bibles seem great. Translations are tricky, obviously.

The "trinity", is in the bible, Deeje. In fact, to make Jesus non-deific, you literally have to mistranslate deity names, that by all sensible logic, infer deity and specificity.

 

[Desert Snake]

You seem to have embraced henotheism, or polytheism, however; you might have a better argument there.

 

[Shiranui117]

The Bible identifies the pre-human Jesus as the agency "through" whom creation was brought into existence. As the "master workman" he was part of the creative process but he was not the Creator. Nowhere in scripture is Jesus called the Creator. He never once called himself "God" and nowhere in scripture is the holy spirit called "God". No matter how you serve up the trinity, it is nor supported in scripture except where it is read into badly translated verses by biased translators.

Let me ask you a question, since you say that God created Wisdom at the beginning of creation, as per your reading of Proverbs 8:

Was God, at any point, ever without Wisdom? If so, then what was God without Wisdom before having created it?

 

[Faithofchristian]

Let me ask you a question, since you say that God created Wisdom at the beginning of creation, as per your reading of Proverbs 8:

Was God, at any point, ever without Wisdom? If so, then what was God without Wisdom before having created it?

Wisdom has always been with God, before anything came to be.

 

[metis]

Was God, at any point, ever without Wisdom?

Absolutely, since I wasn't born until 1945.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Absolutely, since I wasn't born until 1945.

God has never been without wisdom.
Everyone was with God before they were born in this world of flesh and blood.

Let's see if anyone can figure that out.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Do you tell them that your 'slave' is Jesus' "substitute?

No because that is not true.

*** w99 7/15 p. 10 par. 5 Helping People to Draw Close to Jehovah ***
5 Writing to fellow anointed Christians, the apostle Paul speaks of “the ministry of the reconciliation” and says that God reconciles people to himself on the basis of Jesus Christ’s ransom sacrifice. Paul says that it is “as though God were making entreaty through us” and that “as substitutes for Christ we beg: ‘Become reconciled to God.’” What a heartwarming thought! Whether we are anointed “ambassadors substituting for Christ” or are envoys with earthly hopes, we should never forget that this is Jehovah’s work, not ours.

According to Paul, there are only two tables at which to feed in this world...God's or satan's. (1 Corinthians 10:20-21) Anyone not being "fed" by those appointed by Jesus, will be feeding at the wrong table. The food looks good and tastes nice, but it is contaminated....leading to spiritual delusion and death.

Watchtower November 1, 1922 page 333
Bible prophecy shows that the Lord was due to appear for the second time in the year 1874. Fulfilled prophecy shows beyond a doubt that he did appear in 1874. Fulfilled prophecy is otherwise designated the physical facts; and these facts are indisputable. All true watchers are familiar with these facts, as set forth in the Scripture's and explained in the interpretation by the Lord's special servant.

*** w13 7/15 p. 8 par. 19 “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” ***
19 In review, what have we learned? In the beginning of this article, we raised three “when” questions. We first considered that the great tribulation did not begin in 1914 but will start when the United Nations attacks Babylon the Great. Then, we reviewed why Jesus’ judgment of the sheep and the goats did not begin in 1914 but will occur during the great tribulation. Finally, we examined why Jesus’ arrival to appoint the faithful slave over all his belongings did not occur in 1919 but will take place during the great tribulation.

*** w50 11/15 p. 462 Fraudulent Religious Relics ***
All error and lies are of the Devil and are certainly a great reproach and dishonor to God. (John 8:44; Rom. 1:25) Consequently, Jehovah is against all such pious frauds that teach lies in His name and He will clean them out at Armageddon.

Seems as tho your "appointed by Jesus" teachers feed off both tables.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Do you tell them that there is no salvation outside of your org?

In ancient times, there was no salvation outside of the Jewish religion either. One who wanted to convert to Judaism, had to accept all that Jehovah taught Israel and abide by his laws. He had to adopt the Jewish way of life and worship. Exclusivity was the mark of Jehovah's people all through history...it is the mark of true Christians today. The divided state of Christendom is not representative of Christianity at all. How could it be? (1 Corinthians 1:10)

*** w93 9/15 p. 22 They Compassionately Shepherd the Little Sheep ***
But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy. (Compare John 6:66-69.)

Acts 4:12 (ESV Strong's) 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Do you tell them that when they are baptized, they will be committing themselves to God THRU association with the org? That it is not a direct commitment to God, but to God THRU the org. That is, by making a commitment to your org, they commit to God?

They have been taught in their studies about the "Faithful and Discreet Slave", appointed by Jesus to feed his entire body of servants their "food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45) According to Paul, there are only two tables at which to feed in this world...God's or satan's. (1 Corinthians 10:20-21) Anyone not being "fed" by those appointed by Jesus, will be feeding at the wrong table. The food looks good and tastes nice, but it is contaminated....leading to spiritual delusion and death.

You avoided the question Deeje, please answer it. I didn't ask anything about your 'slave'. Do you tell your prospects for baptism that they are dedicating themselves indirectly to God thru association with your organization?