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Identifying True Christianity

Theodore A. Jones

Active Member
Is it a private affair or are you willing to tell us this wisdom you have actually become aware of?

Already have. You are just not very good material, being hard rocky ground, to plant the seed in.
"For it is not those who (just) hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 Ya see, kid, I had already read some of your lackadaisical commentary before I responded to your "Someone Talk to Me" idea. You compromised the central component of your soteriological system by agreeing with me. Gotcha! Like I've said, been in the game a lot lot longer than you have. Changing horses in mid stream is not a good idea. You come up looking like a nubie. All wet and behind the ears too.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Already have. You are just not very good material, being hard rocky ground, to plant the seed in.
"For it is not those who (just) hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 Ya see, kid, I had already read some of your lackadaisical commentary before I responded to your "Someone Talk to Me" idea. You compromised the central component of your soteriological system by agreeing with me. Gotcha! Like I've said, been in the game a lot lot longer than you have. Changing horses in mid stream is not a good idea. You come up looking like a nubie. All wet and behind the ears too.

No sir. YOU have not told us. We can read too, you know.

"your soteriological system" I think I don't have one of those.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If I understand correctly what soteriological means, it is something in which Yehoshua has exclusive rights to. I won't take it away from him. That's crazy!
 

Theodore A. Jones

Active Member
No sir. YOU have not told us. We can read too, you know.

"your soteriological system" I think I don't have one of those.

Ah ha, but you do have one of those and have stated it in some of your previous posts, but it is contrary to what is true.
Class? Anyone else not understood my argument?
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 What's to misunderstand?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ah ha, but you do have one of those and have stated it in some of your previous posts, but it is contrary to what is true.
Class? Anyone else not understood my argument?
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 What's to misunderstand?

Please don't accuse me of something and not present the evidence. "have stated it in some of your previous posts". Please show me or at least attempt a paraphrase.
 

Shermana

Heretic
There are parts of the Gospel of Luke that make me wonder why one would even care whether someone is a True Christian Believer. Jesus himself apparently did not care too much.

Which parts from Luke specifically? Jesus seems to have very much cared about the specific actions and behaviors of people, he was very strict, nothing less. What he wasn't 'Strict" about was Pharisee manmade interpretations and unscriptural assertions of the Law.
 

Theodore A. Jones

Active Member
Please don't accuse me of something and not present the evidence. "have stated it in some of your previous posts". Please show me or at least attempt a paraphrase.

"Identifying Christianity" 09/20/2013
"Acts 15:9 He did not discriminate between us & them, for he purified their hearts by faith. [not works]
Earlier today you agreed that Rom. 2:13 is a true statement.
One can have her cake or one can eat her cake and not have it, but one cannot have her cake when she eats it. The [not works] is the kicker. It was not an accusation without substantiation.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Identifying Christianity" 09/20/2013
"Acts 15:9 He did not discriminate between us & them, for he purified their hearts by faith. [not works]
Earlier today you agreed that Rom. 2:13 is a true statement.
One can have her cake or one can eat her cake and not have it, but one cannot have her cake when she eats it. The [not works] is the kicker. It was not an accusation without substantiation.

Romans 2:13 means the difference between knowing and doing. God cares not for what you know (knowledge puffs up). God cares that the love that is in you is manifest by your behavior. You disagree?

Abraham was declared righteous by works. True. Romans 2:13 is a true statement.

Acts 15:9 is talking about Jews vs Gentiles.

It's sinking in.... I used Acts 15:9 to respond to the post that said it is the many things Christians DO that identify a true Christian. I disagree. It's just one thing mostly and that is FAITH. There are other requirements that I also posted. (didn't read them...what's new?).

What do you think it is called for a person to be able to receive God's Holy Spirit? It can be considered a "work" of law. It is God's desire that we receive it, and to receive is an active VERB. A verb defines a WORK.
 
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JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
All contemporary churches are not the church that Jesus Christ is head of.
I agree, but I would assume that it is for different reasons. I have no idea what beliefs you subscribe to. Do you have your 'own religion' or are you part of a body of believers who hold the same view as yourself?

For all contemporary churches' foundation is the false assumption that the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is a direct benefit rather than the truth that it is a unilaterally accountable sin by law.
If you are suggesting that the Jews who put Jesus to death were accountable to God for his execution, then you are in agreement with what Jesus said to the Jewish nation and more specifically to their hypocritical leaders. (Matt 23:33-39)

If you mean something different, then please state your understanding of this issue.

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13
Some questions on this verse....

What do you believe is involved in 'obeying the law'?

What law do you believe Paul is referring to in the light of Rom 10:2-4 and Col 2:14?

What does it mean to be "declared righteous" rather than actually "being" righteous?
 
that would come under 'love your neighbour as yourself'

Our neighbour is EVERY living human whether we know them or not. Our family friends and enemies would all fall into that category.

That is exactly right, but those teachings were just a little more detailed. That quote was from the Gospel Of The Lord.
 

Theodore A. Jones

Active Member
I agree, but I would assume that it is for different reasons. I have no idea what beliefs you subscribe to. Do you have your 'own religion' or are you part of a body of believers who hold the same view as yourself?



If you mean something different, then please state your understanding of this issue.


Some questions on this verse....

What do you believe is involved in 'obeying the law'?

What law do you believe Paul is referring to in the light of Rom 10:2-4 and Col 2:14?

What does it mean to be "declared righteous" rather than actually "being" righteous?

The law referenced in Rom. 2:13 is a law that has been added. See Rom. 5:20 the trespass referenced is Jesus' murder , Heb 7:12, Gal. 3:19, Acts 7:53, Isa. 2:3, Isa. 51:4.

If you are suggesting that the Jews who put Jesus to death were accountable to God for his execution, then you are in agreement with what Jesus said to the Jewish nation and more specifically to their hypocritical leaders. (Matt 23:33-39)
Changing the law has made each individual accountable to God in regard to Jesus' crucifixion.
I am not affiliated with any contemporary religious soteriological system or group that I am aware of.
RE Rom. 10:2-4 "Christ is the end to the law" means since he cannot be crucified again the law cannot be changed again. As for the ref. to the Jews they attempted to establish by their own righteousness by by the act of murder. Contemporarily Gentiles make the same attempt by the assumption that "Jesus died in their place".
Summary. The gate into God's kingdom is a small and narrow passage Way, a law, that each individual must have the faith to use, obey, to be allowed to enter his kingdom.
 
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JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
The law referenced in Rom. 2:13 is a law that has been added. See Rom. 5:20 the trespass referenced is Jesus' murder , Heb 7:12, Gal. 3:19, Acts 7:53, Isa. 2:3, Isa. 51:4.

"Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. 19 Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous. 20 God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant. 21 So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God’s wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 5:18-21 NLT)


The whole passage conveys the meaning. Paul sums it up in Gal 6:2 "Share each other’s burdens, and in this way obey the law of Christ."


Changing the law has made each individual accountable to God in regard to Jesus' crucifixion.
The law was actually fulfilled in Christ...he did not come to destroy the law, remember? (Matt 5:17-19) The law of the Christ was to love God with ones whole being and to love our neighbors as ourselves. Jesus said "On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.” (Matt 22:34-40)


I am not affiliated with any contemporary religious soteriological system or group that I am aware of.
Do you recall a time when worshippers of God were alone with no one to direct and guide their worship? Even in the days of the Patriarchs, worship was directed by the family head. They lived long lives and had large families.

When the nation of Israel was formed and accepted God's laws, there was never a time when either Israel or the Christians were left without human shepherds with oversight over the people as God's representatives appointed by him. (Heb 13:17) Who leads you?

What did Paul mean for example when he said, "Let us think of ways to motivate one another to acts of love and good works. 25 And let us not neglect our meeting together, as some people do, but encourage one another, especially now that the day of his return is drawing near." (Heb 10:24, 25 NLT) How do you "not neglect meeting together" if there is no one else who believes as you do?

RE Rom. 10:2-4 "Christ is the end to the law" means since he cannot be crucified again the law cannot be changed again.
Do you have a scriptural reference to back up that statement?

From the NLT.....
"I know what enthusiasm they have for God, but it is misdirected zeal. 3 For they don’t understand God’s way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God’s way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law. 4 For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given.[a] As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God."

Footnotes:


  1. 10:4 Or For Christ is the end of the law.

As for the ref. to the Jews they attempted to establish by their own righteousness by by the act of murder. Contemporarily Gentiles make the same attempt by the assumption that "Jesus died in their place".
"But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.” 11 So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law....
But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” 14 Through Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, so that we who are believers might receive the promised Holy Spirit through faith".
(Gal 3:10-14 NLT)

Summary. The gate into God's kingdom is a small and narrow passage Way, a law, that each individual must have the faith to use, obey, to be allowed to enter his kingdom.
Can I ask you what you believe God's kingdom to be? How does one "enter the kingdom"?
 

MR REG

New Member
The proposition doesn't seem all that bad . Nevertheless the mind of the natural man ( that which we pound nails or build buildings with) doesn't receive God's things .
 
You might check out what the Jehovah's Witness denominational claim is.
Do you always assume that you know more than the people you talk with and that they are ignorant? Or am I a special case?

.....to you. Of course. Are Jehovah's Witnesses new to you? They are one mind. It's their specialty.
Let's see, JW and Mormons aren't allowed on my block anymore because I enjoy them so much. All I ever did was talk with them. Sorta hurts my feelings. What is that word, for someone who disregards a whole group of humans, just because they belong to a group of humans? There was a Senator, named Robert Byrd, who was part of a group like that, (*before he was a senator, and while he was a senator in his early career.)
Fair enough?
Fair enough.. You didn't answer my question.

It was; What won't get anywhere? It is refering to this that you said;
Quote:
But I don't think it can really get anywhere until the WHAT IS part is answered


Question, what is a Christian. 100 people asked, gave 150 answers.
 
Which parts from Luke specifically? Jesus seems to have very much cared about the specific actions and behaviors of people, he was very strict, nothing less. What he wasn't 'Strict" about was Pharisee manmade interpretations and unscriptural assertions of the Law.

You might could say, he was very strict when he had to be, but he didn't walk around being strict on people. A few instances, yeah.... but not as a rule.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Let's see, JW and Mormons aren't allowed on my block anymore because I enjoy them so much. All I ever did was talk with them. Sorta hurts my feelings.
Who said that JW's and Mormons "aren't allowed" on your block anymore? Who stopped you from talking to them? Why are your feelings hurt? I am intrigued....

What is that word, for someone who disregards a whole group of humans, just because they belong to a group of humans? There was a Senator, named Robert Byrd, who was part of a group like that, (*before he was a senator, and while he was a senator in his early career.)
Can you elaborate a little more on this Xian Catalyst? Are you making reference to his connection with the KKK?
 

Theodore A. Jones

Active Member
"Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. 19 Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous. 20 God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant. 21 So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God’s wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 5:18-21 NLT)


The whole passage conveys the meaning. Paul sums it up in Gal 6:2 "Share each other’s burdens, and in this way obey the law of Christ."


The law was actually fulfilled in Christ...he did not come to destroy the law, remember? (Matt 5:17-19) The law of the Christ was to love God with ones whole being and to love our neighbors as ourselves. Jesus said "On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.” (Matt 22:34-40)


Do you recall a time when worshippers of God were alone with no one to direct and guide their worship? Even in the days of the Patriarchs, worship was directed by the family head. They lived long lives and had large families.

When the nation of Israel was formed and accepted God's laws, there was never a time when either Israel or the Christians were left without human shepherds with oversight over the people as God's representatives appointed by him. (Heb 13:17) Who leads you?

What did Paul mean for example when he said, "Let us think of ways to motivate one another to acts of love and good works. 25 And let us not neglect our meeting together, as some people do, but encourage one another, especially now that the day of his return is drawing near." (Heb 10:24, 25 NLT) How do you "not neglect meeting together" if there is no one else who believes as you do?

Do you have a scriptural reference to back up that statement?

From the NLT.....
"I know what enthusiasm they have for God, but it is misdirected zeal. 3 For they don’t understand God’s way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God’s way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law. 4 For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given.[a] As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God."

Footnotes:


  1. 10:4 Or For Christ is the end of the law.

"But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.” 11 So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law....
But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” 14 Through Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, so that we who are believers might receive the promised Holy Spirit through faith".
(Gal 3:10-14 NLT)


Can I ask you what you believe God's kingdom to be? How does one "enter the kingdom"?

Have no idea what God's kingdom is like only some of the brief descriptions of it in the scriptures indicate what it is like. My only concern was finding the small narrow gate that one must have the faith to use to be allowed to get in it. Since it is true that only a few find it and it is also true that contemporary churches are a dime a dozen I figured that what these churches pontificate cannot be right. What is it? the gate, was my question. Suspicious that what these churches teach had to be a lie and a lie is something that is 180 degrees off point. Substitutionary atonement, i.e. a direct benefit, was in the sights since it is the common denominator of contemporary churches that assert that they are the same as that which is described in the NT.
[Aside. I really don't like to write lengthy discourses since people won't take the time to read them. But in this case it is necessary.]
Substitutionary atonement, when explained, alleges that it is only Jesus' crucifixion which has resolved all issues of sin and its consequence and that proposal is its achilles heel. For this doctrine to be true there cannot be any possibility for guilt relative to sin be the primary unresolved residual issue after Jesus was crucified. But what does the Lord say about two weeks prior to his crucifixion? "When he comes he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin" Jn. 16:8. It does not matter which variable of this doctrine is proposed. Vicarious atonement, penal substitutionary atonement, died in your place, took you place on the cross etc. there cannot be a residual issue of guilt relative to sin and this doctrine or any of its variants hold up to scrutiny. If it is true that Jesus' crucifixion is a direct benefit then it is also true that his statement in Jn. 16:8 is false. But God cannot lie and since Jesus Christ is God manifisted in the flesh the doctrine of substitutionary atonement and any of its variants is entirely false.
Does it concern me that I might be the only person at this time with my convictions? No not in the least because I know what the gate is it is a law that has been added. There is no possibility that there is anyother Way into God's kingdom but by having the faith to confess to God that you are truly sorry his only begotten son lost his life when he was crucified. There are no exceptions for it is the law.
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."Rom. 2:13
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Apologies for the length of these.....

Have no idea what God's kingdom is like only some of the brief descriptions of it in the scriptures indicate what it is like.
"What" the kingdom is, is a mystery to Christendom. They believe that it is an internal experience that affects those who are born again. That is not what the Bible teaches. The word "kingdom" indicates a "king" and a "dom"ain. Who did kings rule and what was their domain? Their subjects lived in their territory (domain) and it was defended most diligently. It had clearly defined borders and armed forces to keep intruders out. Wars were fought over borders....most of Israel's wars were over her land".

My only concern was finding the small narrow gate that one must have the faith to use to be allowed to get in it. Since it is true that only a few find it and it is also true that contemporary churches are a dime a dozen I figured that what these churches pontificate cannot be right.
Going by what Jesus taught about the 'wheat and the weeds', I believe that you are correct in your assumptions. (Matt 13:36-43) The Christianity taught in the divided churches of Christendom is not what Jesus taught his first century followers. The deviation has been gradual and complete since the beginning of the second century. The weeds have been in existence for almost two thousand years, corrupting the teachings of the Christ. (2 Tim 4:3, 4)

In the illustration of the two roads in Matt 7:13, 14, Jesus said “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."

Do you see that "many" are on the broad road leading to death, but that only some were looking for a narrow gate to enter? Those traveling the broad, easy road are not looking for an exit because they are perfectly happy traveling as they are.

But for a "few" who are led by God's spirit, the destination of that dead end road where the majority are heading, is unappealing. They know the road to life is hard and the gate is narrow, so they look for the way to enter.
No one with 'excess baggage' will get through that narrow gate. We have to leave all unnecessary stuff behind and enter the gate with just the clothes on our back, spiritually speaking.

The journey along this cramped road is also difficult, again it is beneficial not to be weighed down with things we do not need.
This was echoed in Jesus' words to his followers in 66 C.E. when the Romans first laid siege to Jerusalem. He told them that when they saw armies surround the city, they were to "flee to the mountains". They must have wondered how they would ever escape. Then inexplicably, for no apparent reason, the Romans withdrew, allowing the Christians to obey Jesus' command. They were told not to return to their homes to pick up their things, but just to flee for their lives. Those who obeyed were saved, finding refuge in the neutral city of Pella. But they had to start life again with nothing but their own hard work. They had left homes, relatives and businesses, but they were alive.
Those who did not heed Jesus' warning, seeing the withdrawal of the Romans as a political victory, perished when the Romans returned and laid siege to Jerusalem again, cutting off all supplies to the city. Many died of starvation, some were forced to eat the bodies of their dead children. Eventually the city and its temple were destroyed in 70C.E.
 
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