If a creator exists, why worship it?

[OurCreed]

You cannot have it both ways. To a rational unbiased observer of our world and universe, the existence of some invisible creator god is not evident. As you perfectly demonstrated above, for one to believe in such a being one has to first assume it exists because there is no rational convincing argument or evidence to support this being's existence. You can try to use the argument that our world seems to be designed for life to exist and function on it but science has given perfectly plausible explanations for how life could arise and evolve to get to what we see today, without interference from a "grand designer". If some creator kicked off the big bang to create the universe as we know it, we could just be a by-product of the universes formation. Assuming the universe was created just as a stage to center around humanities petty self-centered concerns would be supremely arrogant don't you think?




So assuming a creator exists I would assume it possesses a rational mind capable of logical thought, yes? Your god concept (which I do not believe can logically exist) ultimately wishes to create a world full of humans that are completely obedient to its will and follows all it's laws and rules, yes? So why didn't your god concept just create the world it wanted in the first place? I am not interested in arguments about free will and faith, they are flimsy irrational arguments created by apologists to try explaining away the logical inconsistencies in their beliefs. Free will is an illusion, blind faith in unproven supernatural entities being a virtue is straight up laughable. So why worship a hidden creator that purposely created a chaotic world full of random misfortunes?




No, I do not believe ALL of humanities woes are caused due to us being sinful creatures. That is a irrational belief to hold. By that logic only good things would happen to good people and bad things to bad people. It is blatantly obvious that is not the world we live in.




My belief is based on the FACTS that the physical universe obviously exists and is constantly changing. Certain religious beliefs that an invisible man created the universe using magic is based on what again?




When you can prove that anything in the natural world was created your assumption will be logical. As of yet, there is no logical reason that the universe requires a creator.



So the act of creating makes the created cared about until the supreme one decides to stop caring, got it.

Answer the rest later, something came up.

"To a rational unbiased observer of our world and universe, the existence of some invisible creator god is not evident. for one to believe in such a being one has to first assume it exists because there is no rational convincing argument or evidence to support this being's existence."

Disagreed. Any person, heck, a child, will know that if they were walking in the middle of a desert, or swimming in the middle of the ocean, and they found a random watch floating around, they will know that the watch came from someone else, someone else who designed it, designed it so well that it operates the way it is made to.

And the universe is no different compared to the watch. It has its own laws and functions and operates the way it is supposed to. It is designed and obeys mathematical principles. To a rational unbiased observer, the universe was designed and it came from somewhere or something, something GREATER than it.

This is why many civilizations in the past, despite having no contact with one another, all believed in some form of a creator that created the world they live in. This is why all the various old people in history we learned about all had their gods and concepts of creation. To them it wasn't hard understanding that something created the world that they live in.

This is why I disagree with you.

"You can try to use the argument that our world seems to be designed for life to exist and function on it but science has given perfectly plausible explanations for how life could arise and evolve to get to what we see today, without interference from a "grand designer"."

Science has offered no perfect and plausible explanation for why there is life to begin with. There is absolutely no reason for the universe to design life unless it was the purpose of the universal law to begin with in the very beginning. There is no reason why simple atoms consisting of protons, electrons, and neutrons, had to combine in various orderly fashions to create the elements. And there is no reason why simple elements had to combine themselves in such a complex way to eventually form living entities from non-living entities unless that was the purpose of the universal laws from the beginning...that out of simple matter, life will eventually emerge.

Have you even ever asked yourself how can such intelligent life like us human beings, who can think and reflect, who can make CONSCIOUS decisions, who can even wonder about our OWN existence, how could we have developed within a grand universe that has absolutely no intelligence or conscious mind behind it? It's impossible. The fact that we are conscious and intelligent just indicates that there is a higher form of this intelligence and consciousness beyond the scope of our reality.

"If some creator kicked off the big bang to create the universe as we know it, we could just be a by-product of the universes formation. Assuming the universe was created just as a stage to center around humanities petty self-centered concerns would be supremely arrogant don't you think?"

If a creator kicked off the big bang, then everything else logically follows suit. If the creator started the big bang, it basically created the entire universe. If it created the entire universe, it has power and dominion over what it had created. And since it has power and dominion over what it has created, then the creator knows everything about what it created, it knows everything that is going on with what it has created, it sees and hears everything that it has created.

These all follow logically, the moment you assume that the universe's beginning was due to a creator.

And we can go further. If the creator started the universe, it made a conscious decision to start the universe, so it set the laws from the very beginning, laws which eventually gave rise to life, and because the creator has power and dominion over all things, we can very well say that the purpose of life existing was due to the creator's intentions for it to exist. So life exists because the creator wanted life. Now when we look at life, we can see we humans are at the top, not physically, but intellectually. We are the most conscious living creatures created by the universe, and the only ones we know of so far.

Why are we superior in this aspect? You know it, because the all-powerful, all-knowing creator desired it. And again, this is just following with the logic. The first push of the domino eventually takes you here, because you have no other choice.

The moment you say that there is a creator, all of these things logically follow suit.

"Your god concept (which I do not believe can logically exist) ultimately wishes to create a world full of humans that are completely obedient to its will and follows all it's laws and rules, yes?"

We mere humans cannot possibly know why the creator does what He does. We know only what we are told, and for us humans, it is to follow His laws and rules, and that is where religion covers it. I'm not getting into religion because that would be off-topic in relation to how the conversation is going.

"So why didn't your god concept just create the world it wanted in the first place?"

Assuming a creator exists, it is possible for the creator to do whatever it pleases, and if the creator willed, it can create a world where there are entities that obey and worship it without question. But if you think about it, a world where living entities have no choice in worshiping the creator is not as good as a world where living entities have a choice, and that is the world we live in.

We humans are given a choice to worship the one who has created us. True worship is to be a good human on the right path, to follow the law of life and righteousness. Anything else beyond this only religion can answer, and that would be off-topic.

"No, I do not believe ALL of humanities woes are caused due to us being sinful creatures. That is a irrational belief to hold. By that logic only good things would happen to good people and bad things to bad people. It is blatantly obvious that is not the world we live in."

Sorry but that is a strawman. I did not claim that all human woes are caused due to being sinful creatures. Re-read what I wrote. I made a simple point.

God created humans, God created our sustenance. That is proof He cares for our growth and survival.

If some people are unable to get this sustenance, for whatever reason, doesn't automatically mean that God is evil.

"My belief is based on the FACTS that the physical universe obviously exists and is constantly changing. Certain religious beliefs that an invisible man created the universe using magic is based on what again?"

Apparently you believe the universe came into existence from nothingness. How is that for an Abra Cadabra?

Second, the major world religions don't believe there is some invisible man in the sky, that is a childish perspective by some atheists. The reality of God is unfathomable. The best way to describe God is that He is an eternal, infinite, intelligent consciousness that has power over all things.

"When you can prove that anything in the natural world was created your assumption will be logical. As of yet, there is no logical reason that the universe requires a creator."

A watch was created by people. Sure, the materials needed to make the watch were already there, but the watch was designed through the intelligent minds of people. That's just one example.

Or a baby was created through the fertilization process. One sperm and one egg to make a whole new human being, full with a heart, lungs, brain, stomach, and has the ability to grow and reproduce later on.

All created and formed things came from somewhere.

Sorry but this is all logical, I really did not have to prove this for you.

"So the act of creating makes the created cared about until the supreme one decides to stop caring, got it."

As long as we exist, the creator does not stop caring, because through His power, He is ALLOWING us to exist, to remain alive. Infinite examples. He still allows rain to fall, still allows crops to be grown, still keeps the earth intact for our survival. Many examples to show that He cares and values.

So yes, the act of creating shows that He cares and values. His value for what He creates is more than anything you or I can imagine, for He has created the entire universe, and He governs not just earth, but the entirety of the universe.

"Answer the rest later, something came up."

Wow what a loser, you're just running away.

Lol just kidding, it's alright, take your time.

Peace.

 

[viole]

You claimed the universe is eternal, meaning that its past went on forever.

I never said anything of the sort. The univerel can be eternal even if its past did not go on forever. Actully, the fact that it is "its past" should make it clear why.

I explained why that isn't possible. If the past went on forever, time would never get to the present, we wouldn't exist. I am looking at the whole picture, you are not.

And I never said that the past went on forever. I wonder where you got that. Are you sure you are not confusing eternalism with an infinite past?

Same thing here, apply this logic with the universe being eternal. If time went on forever in the past, then why are we living in the present? Time in the past infinitely means that time will never get here...it's mind boggling, and illogical.

You are erecting strawmen based on something I never said. Again, eternalism and finite past are not contradictory. If I were you, I would find inspiration from real scientists. Someone like Carroll or Greene. Not W.L.Craig, preferrably.

Also to say, what you believe contradicts modern established science as well in terms of the big bang theory. Both theists and atheists accept the big bang theory and accept the fact that the universe had a beginning. Your belief is not the popular belief, nor the well supported one by evidence.

Let me guess. Relativity is not in the set of things you master. Correct?

There's nothing wrong with assuming every thing has a creator because we can see that reality in our world today. No circular reasoning, no begging the question. We have evidence. All material and physical things and existences came from somewhere or something greater.

Well, there is a lot wrong, because this evidence is only in your mind, I am afraid.

By the way, even if there was evidence, what God is that? Apollo, Jesus, Allah or the great Juju at the bottom of the sea?
If you have evidence that it is one of them, because of empty tombs, personal revelation, miracles or similar stuff, why do you need cosmological evidence for a more generic God? It would be like speculating about the existence of animals when you have a cat to show. So, where is your cat?

If we want to look at it mathematically, all finites can come only from infinites. Since you believe the universe is eternal (which contradicts science), this will be hard for you to accept, but according to science and math, finites only come from infinites, and this universe (which is finite), came from something infinite.

I would be very much interested to see where you read that finites come from Infinities. And, by the way, if inflationary cosmology belonged to the set to things you master, you would probably know that this Universe might very well be infinite, despite having a finite past. Do you think it is like a sphere with an ever increasing radius starting as a point?

It's all logic, the universe was created.

Nope. It is quite the opposite. It is faith.

So your argument makes no sense. Assuming the creator that we are speaking of is the greatest existence, then morality does not exist for the creator. There is no good or evil for God, everything is neutral. That is the logical standpoint. God created human beings and made them conscious and basically planted into our heads what is the right thing to do and what is the wrong thing to do. It doesn't actually exist on an absolute level.

Good, that could explain why He indulged in the massacre of little children.

But a lion killing a deer is not evil at all, because morality is completely non-existent in the ANIMAL perspective.

So, it is possible that He created lions in His image. Not us.

Depends on whom the test is for. God does not need anything from us, He does not HAVE to test us. There's a difference between HAVING to do something, and WANTING to do something.

So, I assume He does not know the outcome of His tests. Otherwiese it would be pretty silly to want to test something you know already the outcome thereof.

I just said earlier that God does what He pleases, and that would be logical, because if the creator exists, He has absolute power and dominion and can do whatever He wants. So God wanted to create a creation which He will test. He does what He pleases. The test is for us, not for Him, He already knows the results.

So, He is silly.

It's good that you mentioned that.

The concept of evil will exist in heaven, but it will never be manifested.

So basically, imagine a perfect world on earth. People KNOW that someone can murder someone, that people can steal, that random sicknesses and disasters can happen at any moment, but it will never happen because God ensured heaven will be a place of eternal happiness with absolutely no misfortune.

So no, heaven will not be filled with sadness or evil. The concepts will still be there so that good and evil can be defined, but the evil itself will never be manifested, so life will always be good.

And that is possible for the Creator.

And why did He not ensure that here on earth? Assuming that this is also possible for the creator.

Good day.

You too.

Ciao

- viole

 

[morphesium]

Disagreed. Any person, heck, a child, will know that if they were walking in the middle of a desert, or swimming in the middle of the ocean, and they found a random watch floating around, they will know that the watch came from someone else, someone else who designed it, designed it so well that it operates the way it is made to.

who designed God.

 

[morphesium]

This is why many civilizations in the past, despite having no contact with one another, all believed in some form of a creator that created the world they live in. This is why all the various old people in history we learned about all had their gods and concepts of creation. To them it wasn't hard understanding that something created the world that they live in.

Why do you think there was some sort of religion in almost all civilizations - these reason could be these

In the past, as humanity progressed into tribal societies and beyond, power always had to be vested with a few for proper administration. And it was easy for them to realize that they could guarantee their strong hold the most if they could take advantage of the fact that

1. The fear of the unknown is always much greater than fear of the known.
2. There is always the uncertainty of the future.
3. People had to suffer extreme hard ships for their survival and this demanded something strong to pacify them.
4. Human beings are inquisitive and imaginative. They ask questions and looks for the simplest possible answer.

and nothing fits better than the God factor and hence the formation of a religion. This is something very easy to sell and makes the least oppression which they can easily suppress with some magical trickery and stories. Additionally, it has a very addictive nature and can propel itself for generations. Rituals and other holy practices were incorporated into it which not only strengthened the religious bondage, but also helped the religious heads to keep an eye on those who are stepping away from such practices. followers are easily made to believe that they get some form of divine protection.

so as different tribes formed, so were different stories and different gods. As societies merged or progressed or destroyed through war etc, so was religion.

In these societies, there were always evil practices and , there are always good and exceptional people who keep much advanced thoughts and they stand against the evils in the society. They take people or society from dark ages and enlighten them. Unfortunately just like ordinary people these great ones also die.(Religion is a always good business - then and now). Some people seeing a business opportunity (and for power), sanctifies this person. So laws are made are kept as such. Not (never) to be changed at all. Then existing scientific proofs are added to give it more credibility. Rituals and practices make it imprinted on those who practice it. This is how a typical non-tribal religion is formed - and 1,2, and 3 , 4 are still valid here.

Additionally,
4. Constant thinking (praying ) and practices make it a habit, and ones it is a habit, it is very difficult to break such thoughts and practices. This is the reason religion keeps lingering even if our rational minds finds faults with it. (Once it becomes a habit, it takes strong will and determination to break free from this).

 

[morphesium]

Science has offered no perfect and plausible explanation for why there is life to begin with. There is absolutely no reason for the universe to design life unless it was the purpose of the universal law to begin with in the very beginning. There is no reason why simple atoms consisting of protons, electrons, and neutrons, had to combine in various orderly fashions to create the elements. And there is no reason why simple elements had to combine themselves in such a complex way to eventually form living entities from non-living entities unless that was the purpose of the universal laws from the beginning...that out of simple matter, life will eventually emerge.

The branch of science in these fields is well developed and is still gaining knowledge. The only problem is that when religious people start to explain these - but never try to understand it.

 

[morphesium]

Have you even ever asked yourself how can such intelligent life like us human beings, who can think and reflect, who can make CONSCIOUS decisions, who can even wonder about our OWN existence, how could we have developed within a grand universe that has absolutely no intelligence or conscious mind behind it? It's impossible. The fact that we are conscious and intelligent just indicates that there is a higher form of this intelligence and consciousness beyond the scope of our reality.

Personally i have asked many such questions myself - the universe started with a big bang, and as time progressed, its complexity evolved, gas particles accumulated because of gravity to form the primary stars and later it blew up spilling various other elements across the space which again accumulated because of gravity, but this time forming planets and moons etc. simple life originated in some of these planets and then intelligence which with time increased in its complexity.

The idea that a super intelligent creature (God) existed at the beginning so that it would make the whole world possible is far less likely than a world through evolution.

Now that you are a believer, why do you think a christian remains as a Christian, a jew as a jew, not accepting your religion. It is for the same reason why you are not accepting others. These are all fake. Think.

 

[Shia Islam]

If the human race created a new sentient species in the future (doesn't really matter how in this scenario) would it make sense for us to have this new species worship us? I personally think that would be a bit odd and blatantly narcissistic.

So if humanity was created by a "god" would it want our worship? Is this "god" if it exists even worthy of worship since it doesn't interfere in our daily lives for good or ill?

If the human race created a new sentient species in the future (doesn't really matter how in this scenario) would it make sense for us to have this new species worship us? I personally think that would be a bit odd and blatantly narcissistic.

So if humanity was created by a "god" would it want our worship? Is this "god" if it exists even worthy of worship since it doesn't interfere in our daily lives for good or ill?

A God that created all that exists is worthy to be thanked and worshiped...

Without worshiping God humans won't be able to live their real position in this Universe.

 

[OurCreed]

who designed God.

The concept of God, being the creator of the universe, is not something that is designed.

So God has no designer, God has no creator. God was always there, He is infinite, eternal, and beyond the limitations of this physical world.

The universe on the other hand is a physical dimension, it was created, it evolved, it was designed, it has limitations.

 

[OurCreed]

Why do you think there was some sort of religion in almost all civilizations - these reason could be these

In the past, as humanity progressed into tribal societies and beyond, power always had to be vested with a few for proper administration. And it was easy for them to realize that they could guarantee their strong hold the most if they could take advantage of the fact that

1. The fear of the unknown is always much greater than fear of the known.
2. There is always the uncertainty of the future.
3. People had to suffer extreme hard ships for their survival and this demanded something strong to pacify them.
4. Human beings are inquisitive and imaginative. They ask questions and looks for the simplest possible answer.

and nothing fits better than the God factor and hence the formation of a religion. This is something very easy to sell and makes the least oppression which they can easily suppress with some magical trickery and stories. Additionally, it has a very addictive nature and can propel itself for generations. Rituals and other holy practices were incorporated into it which not only strengthened the religious bondage, but also helped the religious heads to keep an eye on those who are stepping away from such practices. followers are easily made to believe that they get some form of divine protection.

so as different tribes formed, so were different stories and different gods. As societies merged or progressed or destroyed through war etc, so was religion.

In these societies, there were always evil practices and , there are always good and exceptional people who keep much advanced thoughts and they stand against the evils in the society. They take people or society from dark ages and enlighten them. Unfortunately just like ordinary people these great ones also die.(Religion is a always good business - then and now). Some people seeing a business opportunity (and for power), sanctifies this person. So laws are made are kept as such. Not (never) to be changed at all. Then existing scientific proofs are added to give it more credibility. Rituals and practices make it imprinted on those who practice it. This is how a typical non-tribal religion is formed - and 1,2, and 3 , 4 are still valid here.

Additionally,
4. Constant thinking (praying ) and practices make it a habit, and ones it is a habit, it is very difficult to break such thoughts and practices. This is the reason religion keeps lingering even if our rational minds finds faults with it. (Once it becomes a habit, it takes strong will and determination to break free from this).

All four of those points point to the fact that it is built within human nature to search for something greater than it to find the answers.

The gist is...there's a reason for that. Why did we humans evolve to think in such a way? Think in such a way that no other animals do?

Humanity is violent, it always was, and always will be. Religion makes no difference in that aspect. Religion does not cause humans to be violent, it is the nature itself of humans. This nature of humans can be left alone, in that case we would be like animals, or the nature can be tended, and that is what makes us civilized.

True religion is civilization. Religion without civilization and civility is no religion.

 

[OurCreed]

The branch of science in these fields is well developed and is still gaining knowledge. The only problem is that when religious people start to explain these - but never try to understand it.

That is a generalization.

 

[OurCreed]

Personally i have asked many such questions myself - the universe started with a big bang, and as time progressed, its complexity evolved, gas particles accumulated because of gravity to form the primary stars and later it blew up spilling various other elements across the space which again accumulated because of gravity, but this time forming planets and moons etc. simple life originated in some of these planets and then intelligence which with time increased in its complexity.

The idea that a super intelligent creature (God) existed at the beginning so that it would make the whole world possible is far less likely than a world through evolution.

Now that you are a believer, why do you think a christian remains as a Christian, a jew as a jew, not accepting your religion. It is for the same reason why you are not accepting others. These are all fake. Think.

You are basically proposing the idea that components in the universe were combined due to random chance, with non-intelligence.

That is extremely illogical. The idea that there is a creator, an intelligent consciousness that designed the universe and its laws the way it is makes more sense.

Saying that evolution caused the complexity and design in the universe is begging the question. Evolution isn't a cause, it is a process. The question still remains, what caused this process and why does it work in this way?

On a side note, I do not deny evolution. But it is not a sufficient explanation for causality and design of the world we live in.

To any unbiased rational observer, the universe has an intelligent force behind it. It is as clear as day. All the aspects of life proves it. There is no reason to believe that randomness and non-intelligence is the cause for the magnificent structure of the cosmos. That is leaping into heavy irrationality. It's more plausible to believe that the universe had a designer than not believing in it.

In regards to your final statement, that is off topic. We don't have to dive into religious doctrine. We're just focusing on the creation aspect.

 

[morphesium]

The concept of God, being the creator of the universe, is not something that is designed.

So God has no designer, God has no creator. God was always there, He is infinite, eternal, and beyond the limitations of this physical world.

The universe on the other hand is a physical dimension, it was created, it evolved, it was designed, it has limitations.

Everything that exists now has a beginning. The planets, the stars, humans, life on earth - whatever it be it had a beginning often from the simplest interactions. Saying that God has no designer, no creator, no beginning etc,- are all running away from the truth, the only option available to someone who pretends to know the answer.

All religions have this in common, that they are an outrage to common sense, for they are pieced together out of a variety of elements, some of which seem so unworthy, sordid, and at odds with man’s reason that any strong and vigorous intelligence laughs at them. —Pierre Charron

It is an insult to God to believe in God. For on the one hand it is to suppose that he has perpetrated acts of incalculable cruelty. On the other hand, it is to suppose that he has perversely given his human creatures an instrument - their intellect - which must inevitably lead them, if they are dispassionate and honest, to deny his existence. It is tempting to conclude that if he exists, it is the atheists and agnostics that he loves best, among those with any pretensions to education. For they are the ones who have taken him most seriously. —Galen Strawson

 

[ether-ore]

If the human race created a new sentient species in the future (doesn't really matter how in this scenario) would it make sense for us to have this new species worship us? I personally think that would be a bit odd and blatantly narcissistic.

So if humanity was created by a "god" would it want our worship? Is this "god" if it exists even worthy of worship since it doesn't interfere in our daily lives for good or ill?

I think you may have a misunderstanding of what worship is. Worship is more for our benefit, not God's. Worship is showing gratitude which benefits us because when gratitude is instilled in us we become humble and teachable. Worship also entails obedience to someone who has an infinite knowledge of truth whereas our knowledge is finite. Understanding that we have limited knowledge while remaining obedient is what constitutes faith, but faith is not blind or without reason. God had revealed what is expedient for us to know while in this mortal sphere of existence and when we use our reasoning to evaluate what has been revealed, we can (or some of us can) grasp the reasonableness and truth of it.

 

[morphesium]

I think you may have a misunderstanding of what worship is. Worship is more for our benefit, not God's.

Worship is not for ones benefit unless he/she is a priest or something like that.

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the philosophers as false, and by the rulers as useful. —Seneca the Younger

Worship is showing gratitude which benefits us because when gratitude is instilled in us we become humble and teachable.

Yes! Yes! ISIS. extremely humble, generous and peaceful..

Worship also entails obedience to someone who has an infinite knowledge of truth whereas our knowledge is finite. Understanding that we have limited knowledge while remaining obedient is what constitutes faith, but faith is not blind or without reason.

Worship has much more drawbacks than benefits. Rather than making people unite, it divides ( in the name of God). It makes people much more aggressive and violent (proof -abundant in history and at present). Rather than making people more rational and scientific tempered, it makes people irrational and superstitious. Wherever people are under religious control, science and arts rock bottomed, common people lived in dark age.

Art raises its head where religions decline. -- Friedrich Nietzsche

Science . . . has been accused of undermining morals - but wrongly. The ethical behavior of man is better based on sympathy, education and social relationships, and requires no support from religion. Man’s plight would, indeed, be sad if he had to be kept in order through fear of punishment and hope of rewards after death.--Albert Einstein

Faith has always been blind and will be ever. The reason why faith exists is because of human psychology, not intelligence.

"The danger of religious faith is that it allows otherwise normal human beings to reap the fruits of madness and consider them holy. Because each new generation of children is taught that religious propositions need not be justified in the way that all others must, civilization is still besieged by the armies of the preposterous. We are, even now, killing ourselves over ancient literature. Who could have thought something so tragically absurd could be possible?"— Sam Harris

God had revealed what is expedient for us to know while in this mortal sphere of existence and when we use our reasoning to evaluate what has been revealed, we can (or some of us can) grasp the reasonableness and truth of it.

revealed ???????Holy books????? absurd.

"Much of the Bible or the Quran is just life-destroying gibberish, and we just have to acknowledge this and cease to take these books seriously." — Sam Harris

 

[ether-ore]

Worship is not for ones benefit unless he/she is a priest or something like that.

Yes! Yes! ISIS. extremely humble, generous and peaceful..

Worship has much more drawbacks than benefits. Rather than making people unite, it divides ( in the name of God). It makes people much more aggressive and violent (proof -abundant in history and at present). Rather than making people more rational and scientific tempered, it makes people irrational and superstitious. Wherever people are under religious control, science and arts rock bottomed, common people lived in dark age.

Faith has always been blind and will be ever. The reason why faith exists is because of human psychology, not intelligence.

revealed ???????Holy books????? absurd.

The overall gist of your reply is to the effect that if some religions are wrong or are in error in some way, then all of them are. So much for your reasoned evaluation of each religion on any merits it may individually have. It is quite apparent that throwing the baby out with the bath water is a reasonable solution for you. The sweeping and generalized quotes from others who have dismissed all religions out of hand do not impress as valid appeals to authority.

 

[JustWondering]

The Creator created life, it is delicate, and if you tamper with it, then life will cease to function properly.

You cannot grow a pumpkin if you plant apple seeds. You can not grow any crop with any liquid unless it is water. You can never grow anything without sunlight or another form of energy. This is how life is created, it is designed and created in a certain way, and all life follows the rules and laws by what the Creator set them as.

Pain and agony are blessings, and they are vital to our survival. Without pain, life will not survive, as pain is needed so that life can know what is dangerous and harmful for it. Without pain, there is no gain. Everything has been created for a purpose.

You dodged my question. What purpose does disease serve? If your god loves us so very much why does he painfully and slowly kill innocent little children with cancer?

Because the purpose of human life is to get closer to the Creator, to find Him and get closer to Him. Life is a test, no human being will pass through life without trials, tribulations, hardships, and unfortunate circumstances. Every human soul has been created with a special purpose to find and worship their Creator, and without a test, there will not be true worship.

If the purpose of life is to be close to the creator why does he hide his presence from humanity? Seems to be a completely nonsensical and inefficient way of doing things. That's like hiding someone's insulin from them and saying you're helping them out, totally absurd.

An all-powerful creator that created everything really doesn't need to test anything. You claim a god created humans for no other reason than to play some absurd game of hide and seek, that is utterly ludicrous.

Another reason why misfortune exists is so that the opposite exists. Without evil, there cannot be good. Good can never exist if there is no evil. Similarly, happiness can never exist if there is no sadness. You need both.

Another ridiculous claim. You have Islam listed under religion for your avatar, correct? Doesn't Islam promise believers an eternity in paradise were there will be no evil or sadness present? How can this paradise possibly exist if good and happiness cannot exist without evil and sadness? If such a place can exist than why did god not just create this eternal perfect paradise to begin with since that is god's concept of a perfect world?

Everything I have stated so far was from logical reasoning. Your questions have been answered. The way the entire world works is actually sufficient evidence to support the fact that there is a Creator.

None of your arguments have contained logic. You have performed some exceptional mental gymnastics and special pleading however.

 

[JustWondering]

And the universe is no different compared to the watch. It has its own laws and functions and operates the way it is supposed to. It is designed and obeys mathematical principles. To a rational unbiased observer, the universe was designed and it came from somewhere or something, something GREATER than it.

How does the supportable FACT that matter and energy follows the laws of physics lead to the unsupported claim that it HAS to have been set up that way by an intelligence of some kind. You already seem capable of accepting that something can exist without being created by something else (god). Furthermore, your argument that intelligent life cannot exist without a designer cancels itself out when you claim the existence of an INTELLIGENT designer that wasn't created. Can you really not see how irrational your reasoning is?

Science has offered no perfect and plausible explanation for why there is life to begin with. There is absolutely no reason for the universe to design life unless it was the purpose of the universal law to begin with in the very beginning. There is no reason why simple atoms consisting of protons, electrons, and neutrons, had to combine in various orderly fashions to create the elements. And there is no reason why simple elements had to combine themselves in such a complex way to eventually form living entities from non-living entities unless that was the purpose of the universal laws from the beginning...that out of simple matter, life will eventually emerge.

You are assuming that there needs to be some grand reason or purpose to anything. The human brain is wired to see patterns in our surrounding environment, so that we can capitalize on them to ensure a greater chance of survival. We EVOLVED to be this way, and it took millions of years to do so. Inserting a god into the gaps of your knowledge allows the part of your mind that needs answers to rest easy. So it can now dedicate itself to more pressing mundane matters. There is no evidence to suggest a creator exists. There is no evidence to suggest that a specific creator that watches our every move and stands in judgment of us exists. Reality simply does not support your wishful thinking and beliefs.

Have you even ever asked yourself how can such intelligent life like us human beings, who can think and reflect, who can make CONSCIOUS decisions, who can even wonder about our OWN existence, how could we have developed within a grand universe that has absolutely no intelligence or conscious mind behind it? It's impossible. The fact that we are conscious and intelligent just indicates that there is a higher form of this intelligence and consciousness beyond the scope of our reality.

Circling back to your intelligence requires intelligence to exist argument? By your "logic" if intelligence requires an intelligent designer to exist than the designer requires a designer to exist and so on.

If a creator kicked off the big bang, then everything else logically follows suit. If the creator started the big bang, it basically created the entire universe. If it created the entire universe, it has power and dominion over what it had created. And since it has power and dominion over what it has created, then the creator knows everything about what it created, it knows everything that is going on with what it has created, it sees and hears everything that it has created.

Why do you ASSUME that an entity that could ignite the big bang would have any power or dominion over the universe? Why do you ASSUME such an entity could see or hear anything that occurs in this universe? Your argument is not logical, it is wishful thinking based on your pre-held beliefs.

If the creator started the universe, it made a conscious decision to start the universe,

Another ASSUMPTION on your part. Perhaps it caused the big bang by accident. Perhaps it just wanted to see if it could, and had no intentions or plans for what resulted after.

so it set the laws from the very beginning, laws which eventually gave rise to life, and because the creator has power and dominion over all things,

More ASSUMPTIONS based on pre-held beliefs. What if the creator is bound by the same laws and cannot change them?

we can very well say that the purpose of life existing was due to the creator's intentions for it to exist.

But that would be a blatant unsubstantiated claim.

So life exists because the creator wanted life.

Life exists, period. Any further claims need to be reasonable and preferably backed by evidence to be taken seriously.

Now when we look at life, we can see we humans are at the top, not physically, but intellectually. We are the most conscious living creatures created by the universe, and the only ones we know of so far. Why are we superior in this aspect? You know it, because the all-powerful, all-knowing creator desired it. And again, this is just following with the logic. The first push of the domino eventually takes you here, because you have no other choice.

The moment you say that there is a creator, all of these things logically follow suit.

A creator could have any number of attributes and intentions. Again, your arguments are based upon wishful thinking based on pre-held beliefs, not logic.

 

[JustWondering]

We mere humans cannot possibly know why the creator does what He does.

Which has yet to stop men from claiming to speak on its behalf.

We know only what we are told, and for us humans, it is to follow His laws and rules, and that is where religion covers it. I'm not getting into religion because that would be off-topic in relation to how the conversation is going.

Yes, religion is a man-made creation. We are talking about whether a creator, if one exists, wants and/or deserves worship.

Assuming a creator exists, it is possible for the creator to do whatever it pleases, and if the creator willed, it can create a world where there are entities that obey and worship it without question. But if you think about it, a world where living entities have no choice in worshiping the creator is not as good as a world where living entities have a choice, and that is the world we live in.

Why would a rational being who wants worshippers that follows it rules purposely create beings that may or may not do what it created them to do? That defies logic and common sense.

We humans are given a choice to worship the one who has created us. True worship is to be a good human on the right path, to follow the law of life and righteousness.

If humans were truly given the power to choose why did he make some people sociopaths and psychopaths? Why did he make some people kleptomaniacs and pyromaniacs?

Why give the power to choose? In the end, worship is worship.

God created humans, God created our sustenance. That is proof He cares for our growth and survival. If some people are unable to get this sustenance, for whatever reason, doesn't automatically mean that God is evil.

That great suffering exists in the world that is not stopped by a greater power would obviously demonstrate that if a greater power exists, it is unaware of us, doesn't understand our existence, is sadistic, or is apathetic to our plights.

More complicated explanations that suffering is necessary in my experience are coupled with beliefs of some afterworld reward and/or the ability to avoid suffering by appeasing said power. IMO such beliefs are obviously self-centered and not grounded in reality.

Apparently you believe the universe came into existence from nothingness. How is that for an Abra Cadabra?

I guess you were not paying attention. I believe that the universe has always existed in one form or another. It didn't come from nothing, it always was, eternal.

Second, the major world religions don't believe there is some invisible man in the sky, that is a childish perspective by some atheists. The reality of God is unfathomable. The best way to describe God is that He is an eternal, infinite, intelligent consciousness that has power over all things.

Lording over very limited and fallible humans, to the point of sending ones that displease it to a eternity of torture, sounds incredibly petty and cruel for a being of unfathomable intelligence and power.

A watch was created by people. Sure, the materials needed to make the watch were already there, but the watch was designed through the intelligent minds of people. That's just one example.

Or a baby was created through the fertilization process. One sperm and one egg to make a whole new human being, full with a heart, lungs, brain, stomach, and has the ability to grow and reproduce later on.

All created and formed things came from somewhere.

Sorry but this is all logical, I really did not have to prove this for you.

So no evidence to back your ASSUMPTION that the universe needed a designer.

As long as we exist, the creator does not stop caring, because through His power, He is ALLOWING us to exist, to remain alive. Infinite examples. He still allows rain to fall, still allows crops to be grown, still keeps the earth intact for our survival. Many examples to show that He cares and values.

So yes, the act of creating shows that He cares and values. His value for what He creates is more than anything you or I can imagine, for He has created the entire universe, and He governs not just earth, but the entirety of the universe.

So why did he destroy the dinosaurs? Why would he make them extinct if he cared about them?

 

[JustWondering]

I think you may have a misunderstanding of what worship is. Worship is more for our benefit, not God's. Worship is showing gratitude which benefits us because when gratitude is instilled in us we become humble and teachable. Worship also entails obedience to someone who has an infinite knowledge of truth whereas our knowledge is finite. Understanding that we have limited knowledge while remaining obedient is what constitutes faith, but faith is not blind or without reason. God had revealed what is expedient for us to know while in this mortal sphere of existence and when we use our reasoning to evaluate what has been revealed, we can (or some of us can) grasp the reasonableness and truth of it.

Worship gives a psychological benefit to some but that is not what I'm really contemplating. I'm not talking about god x, y, or z. I'm asking if it makes sense to worship something we know nothing about and does not interfere in our lives? Gratitude for existing is great and all but if our creator seems to have no interest in us (no contact/interference in our lives) why worship it?

As for faith, let's just agree to disagree. I don't believe any god has revealed anything to anyone at anytime.

 

[morphesium]

The overall gist of your reply is to the effect that if some religions are wrong or are in error in some way, then all of them are. So much for your reasoned evaluation of each religion on any merits it may individually have. It is quite apparent that throwing the baby out with the bath water is a reasonable solution for you. The sweeping and generalized quotes from others who have dismissed all religions out of hand do not impress as valid appeals to authority.

Can you name a religion which is not wrong? If you can learn anything from history, then you will see that religion has killed and tortured more people than any war combined. Religion has always degraded morality.


These others were/are great thinkers - and helped a lot in refining the society and whose merits still exists in the society, the consequence of which is freedom, liberty and freethinking etc,... I request you to show some respect for them.
These generalized quotes from these great men definitely make others think and that is why others accept it. It has great value.