If a god is truly beyond our understanding

[+Xausted]

I can reccomend quite a good book (in my opinion) on this subject.


Lash, Nicholas. Holiness, Speech and Silence:Reflections on the Question of God (England;Ashgate, 2004)

 

[idea]

back on topic...
I do not think God wants to be beyond our understanding...

John 16:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I think He not only wants us to know Him, I think He wants us to become like Him...

Man, Potential to Become like Heavenly Father (see also Father; Immortality; Perfection)
Gen. 1:26 (Moses 2:26) let them have dominion
Gen. 3:22 (Moses 4:28) man is become as one of us
Lev. 19:2 (1 Pet. 1:16) be holy: for I ... am holy
Ps. 8:5 thou hast made him a little lower than the angels
Ps. 8:6 madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands
Ps. 82:6 ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most High
Matt. 5:48 (3 Ne. 12:48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father
Luke 24:39 spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have
John 10:34 (Ps. 82:1–8; D&C 76:58) Is it not written in your law ... Ye are gods
Acts 17:29 we are the offspring of God
Rom. 8:17 heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ
2 Cor. 3:18 changed into the same image from glory to glory
Gal. 4:7 if a son, then an heir of God through Christ
Eph. 4:13 Till we all come ... unto a perfect man
Heb. 12:9 be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live
1 Jn. 3:2 when he shall appear, we shall be like him
Rev. 3:21 him that overcometh will ... sit with me in my throne

 

[Bishadi]

Dear Science - God is not found through natural means, He is not found through science.

Dear Idea – Life is natural, see everything around you, and in time all matters of things will be revealed. ‘revelations’

Matthew 10:26

`Ye may not, therefore, fear them, for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed, and hid, that shall not be known;

Means all of nature will be known as true rather than the worldly ‘ideas’ of things.

2 Peter 1:4

through which to us the most great and precious promises have been given, that through these ye may become partakers of a divine nature, having escaped from the corruption in the world in desires.

Where some may use the word ‘spirit’ yet not comprehend the term sold as magical phenomenon. ‘worldly descriptions’

Being able to find Him through natural means would take away our agency.

As no faith to religions will remain upon the minds of the children.

The words of deceit guiding the mind without responsibility to existence; faith in omnipotence; rapture.

In which to suggest one can be a sinner and to ‘ask’ to be forgiven from god without being responsible to existence for the atrocity, is a deceit to responsibility; false witness.

Meaning nothing will bring Sharon Tate back to life. Each is responsible for what they do and will live forever in the life they choose.

As each can type on this forum; understanding evolves! As the inquisitions took knowledge; failing to develop based on the deception of a religion, then in the end times nothing can stopped the final revealing.

James 1:26
If any one doth think to be religious among you, not bridling his tongue, but deceiving his heart, of this one vain [is] the religion;

Stay honest and never think one sect is the all perfect religion; nor one is perfect in truth!

Mark 10

17And as he is going forth into the way, one having run and having kneeled to him, was questioning him, `Good teacher, what may I do, that life age-during I may inherit?'


18And Jesus said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one [is] good except One -- God;
19the commands thou hast known: Thou mayest not commit adultery, Thou mayest do no murder, Thou mayest not steal, Thou mayest not bear false witness, Thou mayest not defraud, Honour thy father and mother.'

No man is 'good' in perfection, follow the rules! be compassionate over an above the self....

To retain a belief in supernatural is a failure to truth.

 

[McBell]

God knows everything and does everything with a purpose in mind. He was not setting them up to fail, He was setting them up to learn through experience - it was the only way to learn, He provided them with the opportunity to progress and not just stagnantly sit around...

No pain, no gain.

You can weasel word all you like, but it boils down to god setting man up to fail in order to teach man a lesson.
You sugar coated it yourself in the above quote.

 

[idea]

You can weasel word all you like, but it boils down to god setting man up to fail in order to teach man a lesson.
You sugar coated it yourself in the above quote.

He did not "set man up" God did not create everything - link - stop trying to blame God for things that He is in no way responsible for making. He did not create us - we become His creation if we follow Him, He forms the ugly clay, but He did not make the clay...

Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

refined in the fire. It is not His fault that it takes a "fire" to refine us. He is cleaning up a mess that He is not responsible for making - selflessly cleaning us up - that is if we choose to be cleaned up. He will not go against our agency - agency, also proof of who He is, who we are. Agency cannot be created. If we are 100% created, the creator is 100% responsible for all of our actions - we would do only what we were designed to do in that case.... instead, we have agency - you can prove it to yourself - you can think whatever you like because you were not created and you do have agency. We were not designed by Him, our agency is to blame for our problems - not God.

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.
32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the alight is under condemnation.
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

We chose to come here - knowing full well the consequences. Do you know the background of what brought us here?

cut-n-paste:
If you want the entire account… here is what is in the Bible:

Rev 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael (Adam) and his angels (us) fought against the dragon (Satan); and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Luke 10: 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Isaiah 14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

What was the war in heaven over? For this, you will need to read out of the Pearl of Great Price in the Book of Moses:

CHAPTER 4​

1 AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

What would it take to save all mankind? It would require taking away our free agency. God was not willing to do that. 1/3 of the spirits followed Satan and became the fallen angels – willing to give up their free agency in exchange for a life with no suffering and no mistakes… the other 2/3’s chose to keep their free agency, even if it meant we might not be saved. If you are here living on this Earth with a body right now, you are part of the 2/3’s who chose free agency. You have kept your first estate.

 

[idea]

The words of deceit guiding the mind without responsibility to existence; faith in omnipotence; rapture.

I am a little confused - we do have responsibblity because we were not created. If God created us - then it would be His creation, His mess. Instead, we have agency, and so the responsibility falls onto our own shouldiers. Does this take away from God? Any being can create a robot. It takes a God to form another being who has agency. If we become His creation - His creation would be nothing less than He is, and He is eternal, with agency.

Stay honest and never think one sect is the all perfect religion; nor one is perfect in truth!

I am confused as to why anyone would follw a sect that states that they do not have the truth??? That it is impossible to find the truth - so don't even try? Is that the message?


Jer 9:3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth ...



You may mean well, but I seek the truth - the one and only truth, not a bunch of contradicting politically correct excuses that "everybody is right" to make everyone feel better - everybody is not right - obvously, it is better to state that in the open and change rather than wallow in ignorance and pretend that everything is peachy.

 

[McBell]

He did not "set man up" God did not create everything - link - stop trying to blame God for things that He is in no way responsible for making. He did not create us - we become His creation if we follow Him, He forms the ugly clay, but He did not make the clay...

Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

I hope you have more than that verse to support your theory.
For to arrive at your conclusion with out any thing else is speculation at best...

What would it take to save all mankind?

Lets see...
613 laws didn't work..
Killing off everyone save a select few didn't work...
Sending himself to Earth to fulfill his own laws didn't work...

Wonder whats next........

It would require taking away our free agency. God was not willing to do that. 1/3 of the spirits followed Satan and became the fallen angels – willing to give up their free agency in exchange for a life with no suffering and no mistakes… the other 2/3’s chose to keep their free agency, even if it meant we might not be saved. If you are here living on this Earth with a body right now, you are part of the 2/3’s who chose free agency. You have kept your first estate.

I had absolutely no say in my being here.
If you believe otherwise, more power to you.

 

[lilithu]

My logic and reasoning neither proves nor disproves God.

At any rate, I can easily prove to you via logic that god exists.

A. Science is your god.
B. Science exists.
C. Therefore, your god exists.

:curtsy:

 

[McBell]

My logic and reasoning neither proves nor disproves God.

At any rate, I can easily prove to you via logic that god exists.

A. Science is your god.
B. Science exists.
C. Therefore, your god exists.

:curtsy:

Who are you talking to?

 

[uss_bigd]

My logic and reasoning neither proves nor disproves God.

At any rate, I can easily prove to you via logic that god exists.

A. Science is your god.
B. Science exists.
C. Therefore, your god exists.

:curtsy:

exactly, and faith is the substance of the hope for things unseen...

they have faith that science will provide them with all the answers

 

[logician]

My logic and reasoning neither proves nor disproves God.

At any rate, I can easily prove to you via logic that god exists.

A. Science is your god.
B. Science exists.
C. Therefore, your god exists.

:curtsy:

I don't think it's intellectually honest to ascribe the term "god" to any attribute or entity.

 

[lilithu]

Who are you talking to?

The person who posted the OP, who goes by the moniker "science_is_my_god."

I don't think it's intellectually honest to ascribe the term "god" to any attribute or entity.

I am just going by what the guy's own claim. The argument certainly wouldn't work for my god, but I didn't say that it would.

 

[McBell]

The person who posted the OP, who goes by the moniker "science_is_my_god."

Ok.
i was just wanting to make sure because your reply did not make sense to my post right before it.

 

[Bishadi]

I am a little confused - we do have responsibblity because we were not created. If God created us - then it would be His creation, His mess. Instead, we have agency, and so the responsibility falls onto our own shouldiers. Does this take away from God? Any being can create a robot. It takes a God to form another being who has agency. If we become His creation - His creation would be nothing less than He is, and He is eternal, with agency

Yep! Confused!

Think in reality; all of existence; all mass, all energy, all time; or simply all of it…….. as God.

So life exists as time began. Life evolved over time. Man is simply of mass, energy, time within the total, with a unique ability to experience within time. We see, and know life within existence.

Man created words! Think about it. So then knowledge evolves. As time progresses eventually mass can physically comprehend its existence; the revealing.

I am confused as to why anyone would follw a sect that states that they do not have the truth???

I agree!

That it is impossible to find the truth - so don't even try? Is that the message?

Not on your life!

Jer 9:3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth ...

Or like another friend said

“To live in accordance with the essence of things, is the premise of the moral life. One cannot live in peace of mind without at the same time being in harmony with reality.”

Also,

“The premises of a moral life is based on a covenant with reality.” “No life is authentic that is in conflict with the order of the universe.”

Socrates

And not knowing the order of the universe constitutes a serious handicap in living a moral life!

You may mean well, but I seek the truth - the one and only truth, not a bunch of contradicting politically correct excuses that "everybody is right" to make everyone feel better - everybody is not right - obvously, it is better to state that in the open and change rather than wallow in ignorance and pretend that everything is peachy

My sentiments exactly and so unless a person comprehends how life exists in nature and what life is in true reality versus thinking life is ‘breathing,’ then each rendition is simply an opinion and not true to existence.

My logic and reasoning neither proves nor disproves God.

At any rate, I can easily prove to you via logic that god exists.

A. Science is your god.
B. Science exists.
C. Therefore, your god exists.

Lousy logic, confidently speaking. Science is the pursuit of physical truth. Meaning no spirit built your laptop, no spiritual belief teaches a doctor the medical field.

Science is a choice to understand in an unbiased manner of accepting reality as it is versus the opinions of beliefs or that omnipotence governs.

exactly, and faith is the substance of the hope for things unseen...

they have faith that science will provide them with all the answers

And without science we would not be communicating right now.

The sciences is where most every person relies upon in every day for food, clothing and the medical requisites to continue life. Religions give people culture and a sense of belonging wrapped up in wisdom and associating in a compassionate organization.

But religions cannot extend the physical life nor the understanding of life in the literal sense.

All it can do is make someone feel good by maintaining the precepts that magic and omnipotence is what makes up the day; a path of complacent misunderstandings.

 

[idea]

I hope you have more than that verse to support your theory.

please see post 2 link

see also:
Eccl. 12:7 the spirit shall return unto God who gave it
return = has been there before

Jer. 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee
our birth was not our beginning - we had no beginning.

Zech. 12:1 Lord ... formeth the spirit of man within him
again - form, not create - form something that was already there. That is why He is our "Heavenly" Father - He formed our spirits in Heaven before asking us to come here.

John 9:2 who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind
indicating that "this man" was able to sin before he was born - ie - existed before he was born.

Acts 17:28 poets have said, For we are also his offspring
again God as a Heavenly Father, formed our spirits
Rom. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate
He knew us before we came to Earth.

Eph. 1:4 chosen us in him before the foundation of the world
He knew us before we came to Earth.

Heb. 12:9 subjection unto the Father of spirits
Jude 1:6 angels which kept not their first estate
Rev. 12:7 Michael and his angels fought against the dragon
We were in the war in Heaven, we were the angels that fought with Michael (Adam). That is why we are now here.

18 spirits ... have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

What do you think "eternal" life means? Eternal is something with no end and no beginning. God exists eternally, we do too. He would not be able to give us "eternal" life if we were not eternal beings.

 

[Bishadi]

What do you think "eternal" life means?

Can you show the math behind that comment or is it simply based on a book around the 4th century when the nicene council made JC a god?

Eternal is something with no end and no beginning.

Like the description of change by the Eastern sects; yin and yang?

God exists eternally, we do too. He would not be able to give us "eternal" life if we were not eternal beings

So charles manson will live forever too?

 

[lilithu]

Lousy logic, confidently speaking. Science is the pursuit of physical truth. Meaning no spirit built your laptop, no spiritual belief teaches a doctor the medical field.

Science is a choice to understand in an unbiased manner of accepting reality as it is versus the opinions of beliefs or that omnipotence governs.

And without science we would not be communicating right now.

The sciences is where most every person relies upon in every day for food, clothing and the medical requisites to continue life. Religions give people culture and a sense of belonging wrapped up in wisdom and associating in a compassionate organization.

But religions cannot extend the physical life nor the understanding of life in the literal sense.

All it can do is make someone feel good by maintaining the precepts that magic and omnipotence is what makes up the day; a path of complacent misunderstandings.

Thank you for the tirade. It was most predictable. Do you ever pay attention to the context within which a post is made?? :areyoucra

 

[Bishadi]

Thank you for the tirade. It was most predictable. Do you ever pay attention to the context within which a post is made?? :areyoucra

How to respond to one that 'Proved' lousy logic?

a point was made, you ducked.... ooops!

 

[idea]

Can you show the math behind that comment or is it simply based on a book around the 4th century when the nicene council made JC a god?[/size][/font][/i]

Like the description of change by the Eastern sects; yin and yang?

So charles manson will live forever too?

I am not a follower of the nicene crede, do not believe in th trinity etc.... Jesus is now a God, but not my God, He is my eldest brother.

Most religions have pieces of the truth, if there was no truth in them they would not survive.

We will all exist eternally - some will be changed, some will not. I define life as something that grows, something that progresses for the better. Those who do not change, grow, progress are not really alive - eternal, but not eternally alive - more like an unchanging rock, or decaying rusting piece of metal... God is not responsible for who we are, He does not force us to grow. Those who do not follow Him are in no way related to Him. On the other hand, those who do decide to follow Him become His sons and daughters - born again - we choose who our Parents are and choose what we become.

5 But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore, he is as though there was no credemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God.
6 And now if Christ had not come into the world, speaking of things to come as though they had already come, there could have been no redemption.
7 And if Christ had not risen from the dead, or have broken the bands of death that the grave should have no victory, and that death should have no sting, there could have been no resurrection.
8 But there is a resurrection, therefore the grave hath no victory, and the sting of death is swallowed up in Christ.
9 He is the light and the life of the world; yea, a light that is endless, that can never be darkened; yea, and also a life which is endless, that there can be no more death.
10 Even this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption, and shall be brought to cstand before the bar of God, to be judged of him according to their works whether they be good or whether they be evil—
11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation—
12 Having gone according to their own carnal wills and desires; having never called upon the Lord while the arms of mercy were extended towards them; for the arms of mercy were extended towards them, and they would not; they being warned of their iniquities and yet they would not depart from them; and they were commanded to repent and yet they would not repent.
13 And now, ought ye not to tremble and repent of your sins, and remember that only in and through Christ ye can be saved?
14 Therefore, if ye teach the law of Moses, also teach that it is a shadow of those things which are to come—
15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.



39

For behold, this is my work and my glory—

to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.​

 

[Katzpur]

I often use logic and reasoning to try to grasp the notion of a "god", and although I have tried many times before to accept a god's existence, I cannot. I argue to theists my logic, my reasoning, even my "gut instinct". And yet, many times I hear the arguements that a god's existence is beyond human comprehension. That I cannot use my logic to logically analize my logic, because it could be flawed. And quite frankly, I agree. However, if such an arguement is used, a god could NOT possibly want our belief in his existence. Why? Because if he created the universe, and therefor created my understanding, and put himself above it,that either means he created my understanding by accident, or that he intended me to disbelieve in him.

Does anyone agree/disagree? Does anyone have thoughts on this?

I have tried to discount God's existence based on logic and have been about as successful as you have been trying to do the exact opposite. Personally, I come from a religious tradition that stresses that God wants us to know Him. I don't believe we have the capability to understand everything about Him. If we did, we'd be gods ourselves. But I am convinced that most religions, and Christianity in particular, has made God a lot more complicated, a lot less knowable and a lot more of a mystery than He ever wanted to be.