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If a person claiming to be Christ comes today, how do you know it is really *not* him?

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Here's what I found on Wikipedia...

The Baháʼí Faith teaches that Muhammad was a man of peace. On the occasions when he did fight, he only did so in order to defend himself and his followers from the hostile pagan Arab tribes who inhabited the Arabian Peninsula in his time.[11] ʻAbdu'l-Bahá claimed that "Muhammad never fought against the Christians".[12]
ʻAbdu'l-Bahá taught that some stories about the teachings, deeds and sayings of Muhammad as described in certain hadith which he perceived to be negative, were fabricated due to "fanaticism", "ignorance" or "enmity". He told that most of those who narrated such stories were either members of the "clergy", "antagonistic" or "ignorant Muslims who repeated unfounded traditions about Muhammad which they ignorantly believed to be to His praise." Thus, he says, "some benighted Muslims made His polygamy the pivot of their praises".​
While disregarding some hadith about Muhammad as fabrications and exaggerations with no foundation, ʻAbdu'l-Bahá accepted the authenticity of others. For example, traditions about Muhammad's friendly treatment of the Christians of Najran of whom Muhammad is said to have proclaimed: "If any one infringes their rights, I myself will be his enemy, and in the presence of God I will bring a charge against him." According to Baháʼí belief, in this time Muslims and Christians lived in harmony with each other, however, "after a certain time", due to 'the transgression of both the Muhammadans and the Christians, hatred and enmity arose between them.'[12]
Abdu'l-Baha also upholds the traditions, "I am a Prophet by the sword" and, "I am commanded to threaten the lives of the people until they say, ‘There is none other God but God’" which he interprets to be a reference to idol worshippers of the time of Muhammad and then attempts to justify them in my view.

'While 44 it is a sacred obligation devolving on every conscientious believer in the unity of God to guide mankind to the truth, the Traditions “I am a Prophet by the sword” and “I am commanded to threaten the lives of the people until they say, ‘There is none other God but God’” referred to the idolaters of the Days of Ignorance, who in their blindness and bestiality had sunk below the level of human beings.'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Secret of Divine Civilization, Pages 41-60

An additional point of interest is that the first tradition, "I am a Prophet by the sword" does not as far as I'm aware appear in any known hadith before the time of Abdul-Baha, so Baha'i are stuck believing a hadith about Muhammad that even hadith accepting Muslims don't believe in in my view.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
As you already know, Arabic is spoken differently in different regions.
In my view this appears to be a red herring because I asked a native Arabic Baha'i concerning the rules of Arabic grammar and they said (paraphrasing) the rules of Arabic grammar are consistent and universal amongst the different regions

From this i inferred that since Baha'u'llah was correcting the grammar of the Kitab-i-Iqan to be according to Fusha as suggested by Zayn therefore it matters not that the spoken word appears differently in different regions.

But if you think that Baha'u'llah made translations into regional Arabic dialects or similar then they would presumably be in use today amongst the Bahai of those regions for the same reason the allegedly matchless translation of Shoghi Effendi is still in use in English.

So I am open to changing my mind *if* you can produce these multiple copies of the Kitab-i-Iqan in regional dialects by Baha'u'llah in use amongst their respective communities (subject to independent verification of course) in my view.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
In my view this appears to be a red herring because I asked a native Arabic Baha'i concerning the rules of Arabic grammar and they said (paraphrasing) the rules of Arabic grammar are consistent and universal amongst the different regions

From this i inferred that since Baha'u'llah was correcting the grammar of the Kitab-i-Iqan to be according to Fusha as suggested by Zayn therefore it matters not that the spoken word appears differently in different regions.

But if you think that Baha'u'llah made translations into regional Arabic dialects or similar then they would presumably be in use today amongst the Bahai of those regions for the same reason the allegedly matchless translation of Shoghi Effendi is still in use in English.

So I am open to changing my mind *if* you can produce these multiple copies of the Kitab-i-Iqan in regional dialects by Baha'u'llah in use amongst their respective communities (subject to independent verification of course) in my view.

I already copied the link from Wikipedia. Aranic grammar are different in some places. Some Arabs are unaware of this.

To do a proper investigation, one needs to find the examples that Baha'u'llah says, it was updated later. I just dont have the time to search it. If you have a link of the examples, specially if it has Arabic examples, I can look.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I already copied the link from Wikipedia. Aranic grammar are different in some places. Some Arabs are unaware of this.
From your link in post#123
It states,
'Classical Arabic and Modern Standard Arabic have largely the same grammar; colloquial spoken varieties of Arabic can vary in different ways.'
So are you alleging that Baha'u'llah translated into one or more of classical Arabic, Modern Standard Arabic and colloquial spoken varieties of Arabic?
If so where are these different translations?
To do a proper investigation, one needs to find the examples that Baha'u'llah says, it was updated later. I just dont have the time to search it. If you have a link of the examples, specially if it has Arabic examples, I can look.
But you appear to be asserting that it wasn't updated, but that rather it was grammatically correct in different dialects of spoken Arabic right from the beginning, on what evidence are you basing your claim (or did you just speculate out of whole cloth)?

Surely if Baha'u'llah made copies in different Arabic dialects they would still be available in those regions, do you acknowledge that?

If so where are the multiple copies?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
From your link in post#123
It states,
'Classical Arabic and Modern Standard Arabic have largely the same grammar; colloquial spoken varieties of Arabic can vary in different ways.'
So are you alleging that Baha'u'llah translated into one or more of classical Arabic, Modern Standard Arabic and colloquial spoken varieties of Arabic?
If so where are these different translations?

If you continue reading the rest of the Wikipedia link, it explains there are some differences.


But you appear to be asserting that it wasn't updated, but that rather it was grammatically correct in different dialects of spoken Arabic right from the beginning, on what evidence are you basing your claim (or did you just speculate out of whole cloth)?

Surely if Baha'u'llah made copies in different Arabic dialects they would still be available in those regions, do you acknowledge that?

If so where are the multiple copies?

If I had time, I would have found them.
I don't have much motivation to spend the time searching them. I already know, since Baha'u'llah is Manifestation of God, there was a wisdom for whatever and however He did things. But if you find the link to them, I will spend the time, and tell you what it was about exactly.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If I had time, I would have found them.
I don't have much motivation to spend the time searching them. I already know, since Baha'u'llah is Manifestation of God, there was a wisdom for whatever and however He did things. But if you find the link to them, I will spend the time, and tell you what it was about exactly.
You are reversing the burden of proof here, you claim that Baha'u'llah translated into multiple dialects and then want me to find them for you, but if they exist one can reasonably expect them to be easily found.

The only one claiming they exist is you based on an assumption you are clearly not prepared to check against reality.

On page 31 of Buck's Symbol and Secret;

Under the title "translations" it lists Arabic (note not various dialects of Arabic just Arabic) as being published in 1934.

If there exist translations in various Arabic dialects from the lifetime of Baha'u'llah why do you think that the research department is unaware of them?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
You are reversing the burden of proof here, you claim that Baha'u'llah translated into multiple dialects and then want me to find them for you, but if they exist one can reasonably expect them to be easily found.

The only one claiming they exist is you based on an assumption you are clearly not prepared to check against reality.

On page 31 of Buck's Symbol and Secret;

Under the title "translations" it lists Arabic (note not various dialects of Arabic just Arabic) as being published in 1934.

If there exist translations in various Arabic dialects from the lifetime of Baha'u'llah why do you think that the research department is unaware of them?

I didn't say that the Book of Ighan was written first in another Arabic dialect.

I said, it was about other Tablets, Not Ighan. To the best of my knowledge, Baha'u'llah never changed Ighan.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I didn't say that the Book of Ighan was written first in another Arabic dialect.

I said, it was about other Tablets, Not Ighan. To the best of my knowledge, Baha'u'llah never changed Ighan.
Ok, so when the research department to the Universal House of Justice writes,

"A careful study of the changes that were made clearly shows that the verses of the Qur’án that were not quoted exactly in the first edition of the Íqán were brought into exact conformity in the new edition. As Mr. Buck is undoubtedly aware, when Bahá’u’lláh quotes His own Writings in a Tablet, He not infrequently quotes them in a form that, while conveying the essential meaning of the original, is not in exactly the same words. It would seem that in revealing the Kitáb-i Íqán, He followed the same practice in relation to passages He quoted from the Qur’án. The fact that He Himself had them later changed to be in accordance with the accepted text of the Qur’án makes it clear that He was fully aware of the matter and, moreover, that the change in wording had no effect on the purport of His argument. Here is positive confirmation by Bahá’í authorities of an original version of the Íqán and “a new revised version.”

Source: Symbol and Secret page 28 to 29

Do you think they are lying about there being "changes" made to the Kitab-i-Iqan?

Because it is in that exact context that they refer to "stylistic and grammatical changes", what would be the relevance of their answer to the question if the Kitab-i-Iqan which Najafi is critiqing had none of those?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Ok, so when the research department to the Universal House of Justice writes,

"A careful study of the changes that were made clearly shows that the verses of the Qur’án that were not quoted exactly in the first edition of the Íqán were brought into exact conformity in the new edition. As Mr. Buck is undoubtedly aware, when Bahá’u’lláh quotes His own Writings in a Tablet, He not infrequently quotes them in a form that, while conveying the essential meaning of the original, is not in exactly the same words. It would seem that in revealing the Kitáb-i Íqán, He followed the same practice in relation to passages He quoted from the Qur’án. The fact that He Himself had them later changed to be in accordance with the accepted text of the Qur’án makes it clear that He was fully aware of the matter and, moreover, that the change in wording had no effect on the purport of His argument. Here is positive confirmation by Bahá’í authorities of an original version of the Íqán and “a new revised version.”

Source: Symbol and Secret page 28 to 29

Do you think they are lying about there being "changes" made to the Kitab-i-Iqan?

Because it is in that exact context that they refer to "stylistic and grammatical changes", what would be the relevance of their answer to the question if the Kitab-i-Iqan which Najafi is critiqing had none of those?
Ok, the document explains it:

During His lifetime, Bahá’u’lláh Himself reviewed the book and indicated necessary changes so that, subsequently, a new, revised version of the book became available. In several Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, indications are found that during 1305-1306 A.H. (1887– 1889 A.D.), Bahá’u’lláh undertook the task of revising the book particularly in order to bring the Qur’ánic quotations in line with the common standard. A sample of such a
Tablet is published in the Asráru’l-Áthár. A provisional translation of a portion of this
Tablet follows:

copy of a correct Íqán was given to Jináb-i-‘Alí Akbar, My Glory be upon him.
Existing copies should be brought into conformity with this copy, or new transcrip￾tions made from it. The latter is better and more appropriate. ([Bahá’u’lláh, cited in] Fáḍil Mázandarání, Asráru’l-Áthár [Ṭihrán: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 124 B.E.] Vol. 1, p. 278.)

A careful study of the changes that were made clearly shows that the verses of the Qur’án that were not quoted exactly in the first edition of the Íqán were brought into exact conformity in the new edition. ....

So, as they explained, the changes Baha'u'llah made, was to bring Quranic references to exact conformity of the Quran.

Now, in this document, they quote from Aqdas that:

“Many Tablets were revealed and dispatched in their original form without being checked and reviewed. Consequently, as bidden, they were again read out in the Holy Presence, and brought into conformity with the grammatical conventions of the people in order to forestall the cavils of the opponents of the Cause.”


The Research department quoted this passage from Aqdas to explain the reason why Baha'u'llah revised Iqan. But my take is, this passage in Aqdas is not related to Iqan. It caused confusion here, giving the impression that, there were grammatical conversations in Ighan, whereas, the only changes that Baha'u'llah did in Iqan, were to exactly quote as Quran.

Now, what is wrong with this?
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The Research department quoted this passage from Aqdas to explain the reason why Baha'u'llah revised Iqan. But my take is, this passage in Aqdas is not related to Iqan
So you are saying the research department of the Baha'i World Centre got it wrong without you even having looked at the changes or knowing what they are correct?
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I believe that Baha'is and other groups who claim to follow the return of Christ have their questions incomplete.

One not only needs a criteria of what a true claimant would look like, when multiple people make the case to fit those criteria, it is also helpful to have a set of criteria for what a false claimant would look like, so this thread is for how we can know that a claimant is *not* Christ.

In that regard I think it is helpful for as not only to know what a Christ is, but also what a Christ is not.

You are reversing the burden of proof

Bahais do not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a messenger of Allah since he did not start a new religion.
The bar is extremely high for anyone claiming to be the return of Christ. And by making the claim, they and their followers have the burden of proof to back up their claims.

For Baha'is, the claim is that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies of not only the Bible and the NT, but of all the Holy Books of all the major religions.

What other claims do Baha'is have that would show that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ?

The reverse is important also... For those that claim their prophet is the Christ are the questions incomplete? What else should they be asking that isn't being asked? What is the Christ not like? What is the Christ not going to do? Where is the Christ not from?

Baha'is use this to reject Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad... He claimed to have been divinely appointed as the promised Messiah and Mahdī—which is the metaphorical second-coming of Jesus in fulfillment of the Islamic prophecies regarding the end times,​

The things Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did, where he came from and what he was like are all reasons why Bahai's reject him as the Christ and Madhi.

Why then do Baha'is accept both of their prophets, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, as having done the right things and as having come from the right place?

It is in their interpretations that Baha'is tell us when their two prophets were supposed to come, where they were supposed to come from and what they would be like.

Nobody else fits the criteria that they put out there. My biggest question has been... is their criteria correct? When, where and, since they claim two prophets came, who was supposed to come... and also, what were they supposed to do?

The bar has to be extremely high. Which means there's going to be all kinds of questions that are going to be asked and that need to be answered. Baha'is only have "some" answered questions. What about the rest?
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Did the research department say, the changes Baha'u'llah made to Ighan, included Grammatical conversations?
Yes, and I'm surprised you are making assumptions without even having read the relevant 2-3 pages of the report or seen the changes in my view.
"The Research Department speaks of other kinds of textual changes as well: stylistic and grammatical."
Source: https://bahai-library.com/pdf/b/buck_symbol_secret.pdf page 28
Funnily enough you yourself acknowledged this in your prior post;
...The Research department quoted this passage from Aqdas to explain the reason why Baha'u'llah revised Iqan....
So enough flip flopping time to answer the hard questions in my view.
Lets start here, "So you are saying the research department of the (Haifa) Baha'i Universal House of Justice got it wrong without you even having looked at the changes or knowing what they are correct?"
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Yes, and I'm surprised you are making assumptions without even having read the relevant 2-3 pages of the report or seen the changes in my view.

I saw, but have a different understanding
"The Research Department speaks of other kinds of textual changes as well: stylistic and grammatical."
Source: https://bahai-library.com/pdf/b/buck_symbol_secret.pdf page 28

This is the opinion of the person writing the Article. It is his conclusion from what Research department said. But that's not what Research department said.
The Research department quoted from Most Holy Book, just to say, the reason Baha'u'llah had changed Iqan, is similar to the "reason" He changed other Tablets, which is because of the attacks of opponents. But they didnt mean to say, the Changes in Ighan were also grammatical conversion.

Funnily enough you yourself acknowledged this in your prior post;
So enough flip flopping time to answer the hard questions in my view.
Lets start here, "So you are saying the research department of the (Haifa) Baha'i Universal House of Justice got it wrong without you even having looked at the changes or knowing what they are correct?"

No. I am saying the author of the article misunderstood the statements of Research department.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I saw, but have a different understanding


This is the opinion of the person writing the Article. It is his conclusion from what Research department said. But that's not what Research department said.
The Research department quoted from Most Holy Book, just to say, the reason Baha'u'llah had changed Iqan, is similar to the "reason" He changed other Tablets, which is because of the attacks of opponents. But they didnt mean to say, the Changes in Ighan were also grammatical conversion.




No. I am saying the author of the article misunderstood the statements of Research department.
You appear to be saying that without having read what they actually said in my view, they list some of the changes, then describe them as "grammatical".

This book was written by one Baha'i scholar, edited by another two scholars one of whom is Baha'i, and since Christopher Buck is not known to have lost his good standing in the Baha'i community presumably passed pre-publication review of the Baha'i National Spiritual Assembly of the US's comittee, and none of these appear to have objected to the context the quote of the Research Department was placed in in my view.

The psychology of a person who believes they know better what the research department says than all the aforementioned without even having access to the full contents of the Research Department letter is fascinating in my view.
 
TL : DR? What criterion demonstrate a person is *not* the "return of Christ"?
Well, if I were a Christian I would first look at the qualities and attributes of this "Christ-like" figure to see if he matches up with the false prophet mentioned throughout Revelations 13. The false prophet deceives believers into worshipping the ant-christ instead of God. Revelations 13:14. The second beast is figurative for the false prophet. The first is the Anti-Christ. Revelations 13:11. If he matches up well with Revelations 13 I would conclude he's a false christ-like figure or a false prophet.
 
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