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If a person claiming to be Christ comes today, how do you know it is really *not* him?

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I believe that Baha'is and other groups who claim to follow the return of Christ have their questions incomplete.

One not only needs a criteria of what a true claimant would look like, when multiple people make the case to fit those criteria, it is also helpful to have a set of criteria for what a false claimant would look like, so this thread is for how we can know that a claimant is *not* Christ.

In that regard I think it is helpful for as not only to know what a Christ is, but also what a Christ is not.

According to Baha'u'llah (one of the numerous "return of Christ" claimants), one of the features of Christ is that he is infallible. Though I dont know if this claim is justified in the Biblical texts, nonetheless it would be unwise to treat a demonstrably fallible person as if infallible.

So one of the things that might be a criterion of *not* being the Christ is making errors in one's own holy writings, having them pointed out by another fallible human, then having to re-edit the text multiple times.

But then Baha'u'llah appears to *not* be a return of Christ in my view because that is what he appears to have done;

'Bahā’u’llāh is probably the only Prophet ever who has revised and changed the errors in his own writings, and the only erring infallible. Unfortunately, some people fail to see why these errors must not be committed by a divine figure who carries God’s messages. Some people fail to realize that God’s words don’t need to be edited, proofread, and changed, especially if they have been penned by the “Unerring Pen.” To make matters worse, the UHJ explicitly mentions that many of the changes were suggested to Bahā’u’llāh by an ordinary person: 481 Bahā’u’llāh, Majmū`iy-i alwāḥ-i mubārak-ih, p. 71. 482 Bahā’u’llāh, Majmū`iy-i alwāḥ-i mubārak-ih, p. 78. 483 This can be deduced from his statement “then they would be like your words,” which was uttered by Bahā’u’llāh to state that there must be a difference between the words of God and the words of the people and this difference exists in the grammatical conventions. 217 It is important to note that the stylistic and grammatical changes mentioned above took place over time—often it was Zayn himself that suggested them—and therefore the various manuscripts differ somewhat, one from the other.484 These words show how helpless Bahā’u’llāh was in correcting his errors. Every time he fixed the errors some more were found and he was again forced to make changes in the book and give out a new revised version. He even needed a fallible person to point out these errors and give him suggestions. Thus, the book was not revised once but numerous times. If these changes were made to “to forestall the cavils of the opponents of the Cause” then why not change it accordingly once and shut the mouth of the opponents once and for all. Are the words of God some sort of joke that must be changed every time someone objects to them? The words of God are perfect they need not be changed for style and grammar. These acts by Bahā’u’llāh are in direct contradiction with the claimed infallibility and divine knowledge attributed to him. What is the difference between this Baha’i prophet and all other ordinary men who make mistakes and correct them later on? What kind of an Omniscient God do Baha’is believe in that cannot foresee the troubling consequences of his revelations and changes them multiple times and gives out newer versions and editions?!'

Source:
Twelve Principles:
A Comprehensive Investigation on
the Baha’i Teachings
Masoud Basiti, Zahra Moradi, Hossein Akhoondali
Translated by: Hossein Akhoondali, Ali Mansouri
page 216-217

Which can be downloaded here: https://dn790009.ca.archive.org/0/items/TwelvePrinciples/Twelve Principles - A Comprehensive Investigation on the Bahai Teachings.pdf

TL : DR? What criterion demonstrate a person is *not* the "return of Christ"?
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
It does not matter. We are to show charity, tzedakah, to ALL, friend and foe, and we are to love God with all our heart and soul, so if we are doing these things, we see Christ in everyone.
Namaste
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It does not matter. We are to show charity, tzedakah, to ALL, friend and foe, and we are to love God with all our heart and soul, so if we are doing these things, we see Christ in everyone.
Namaste
If Christ is in everyone then there is no need for one Christ to treat another Christ as an infallible person to be deferred to, making the whole concept of an individual "return of Christ" bogus in my view.

And I believe that one form of charity is when one can see a person headed for a ditch to warn them of the danger that lies ahead. Unfortunately in my view the danger that potentially lies ahead for treating Baha'u'llah as infallible is people being literally burned, unwarranted censorship to protect hagiographic notions of Messengers etc.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
If Christ is in everyone then there is no need for one Christ to treat another Christ as an infallible person to be deferred to, making the whole concept of an individual "return of Christ" bogus in my view.
I don't look for a second coming in the sense Evangelicals believe in. But if it gives comfort, it's not bogus in my view.
And I believe that one form of charity is when one can see a person headed for a ditch to warn them of the danger that lies ahead. Unfortunately in my view the danger that potentially lies ahead for treating Baha'u'llah as infallible is people being literally burned, unwarranted censorship to protect hagiographic notions of Messengers etc.
Agreed. Tzedakah is actually "doing the right thing." I speak my beliefs in moderation and try to live them fully, and though it may sadden me to see others struggle in their spiritual journey, I recognize it's their journey, and I support them in their quest. It's like raising children--they have to make discovery on their own. If they find happiness without real harm (very subjective) to others, all's good.

For those who have settled in their beliefs I try to offer fellowship by respectful sharing. I am not in a position nor of an inclination to disparage any method of communing with God. I have yet to review any religious belief where I find it whole, nor have I found one that had nothing profound to offer.
Screenshot_20231019_221137_Facebook.jpg
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't look for a second coming in the sense Evangelicals believe in.
Glad to hear it.
But if it gives comfort, it's not bogus in my view.
*Staff Edit*
Agreed. Tzedakah is actually "doing the right thing." I speak my beliefs in moderation and try to live them fully, and though it may sadden me to see others struggle in their spiritual journey, I recognize it's their journey, and I support them in their quest. It's like raising children--they have to make discovery on their own.
Children can be assisted to make discoveries by pointing out errors in their thinking that had not occurred to them in my view.
I am not in a position nor of an inclination to disparage any method of communing with God.
I'm not doing that, if people want to call out to God through Baha'u'llah or dancing naked with a chicken claw hung from their neck around a camp-fire or whatever harmless thing good luck to them in my view.
I have yet to review any religious belief where I find it whole, nor have I found one that had nothing profound to offer.
Ok
Yeah Rumi is contradicting himself in that meme, he is laying a rule that the hearts have to be sincere to be heard (does God have a hearing problem?) whilst at the same time saying there are no rules.

I'll admit I sometimes doubt if God exists but if an omnipotent God exists I feel certain that it is well capable of hearing all prayers, the reason it does not intervene in any of them is because it does not want to in my view, sincerity has nothing to do with it.
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It does not matter. We are to show charity, tzedakah, to ALL, friend and foe, and we are to love God with all our heart and soul, so if we are doing these things, we see Christ in everyone.
Namaste
We do? How about the wars going on in the middle east, for one example?
 

Niatero

*banned*
I believe that Baha'is and other groups who claim to follow the return of Christ have their questions incomplete.

One not only needs a criteria of what a true claimant would look like, when multiple people make the case to fit those criteria, it is also helpful to have a set of criteria for what a false claimant would look like, so this thread is for how we can know that a claimant is *not* Christ.

In that regard I think it is helpful for as not only to know what a Christ is, but also what a Christ is not.

According to Baha'u'llah (one of the numerous "return of Christ" claimants), one of the features of Christ is that he is infallible. Though I dont know if this claim is justified in the Biblical texts, nonetheless it would be unwise to treat a demonstrably fallible person as if infallible.

So one of the things that might be a criterion of *not* being the Christ is making errors in one's own holy writings, having them pointed out by another fallible human, then having to re-edit the text multiple times.

But then Baha'u'llah appears to *not* be a return of Christ in my view because that is what he appears to have done;

'Bahā’u’llāh is probably the only Prophet ever who has revised and changed the errors in his own writings, and the only erring infallible. Unfortunately, some people fail to see why these errors must not be committed by a divine figure who carries God’s messages. Some people fail to realize that God’s words don’t need to be edited, proofread, and changed, especially if they have been penned by the “Unerring Pen.” To make matters worse, the UHJ explicitly mentions that many of the changes were suggested to Bahā’u’llāh by an ordinary person: 481 Bahā’u’llāh, Majmū`iy-i alwāḥ-i mubārak-ih, p. 71. 482 Bahā’u’llāh, Majmū`iy-i alwāḥ-i mubārak-ih, p. 78. 483 This can be deduced from his statement “then they would be like your words,” which was uttered by Bahā’u’llāh to state that there must be a difference between the words of God and the words of the people and this difference exists in the grammatical conventions. 217 It is important to note that the stylistic and grammatical changes mentioned above took place over time—often it was Zayn himself that suggested them—and therefore the various manuscripts differ somewhat, one from the other.484 These words show how helpless Bahā’u’llāh was in correcting his errors. Every time he fixed the errors some more were found and he was again forced to make changes in the book and give out a new revised version. He even needed a fallible person to point out these errors and give him suggestions. Thus, the book was not revised once but numerous times. If these changes were made to “to forestall the cavils of the opponents of the Cause” then why not change it accordingly once and shut the mouth of the opponents once and for all. Are the words of God some sort of joke that must be changed every time someone objects to them? The words of God are perfect they need not be changed for style and grammar. These acts by Bahā’u’llāh are in direct contradiction with the claimed infallibility and divine knowledge attributed to him. What is the difference between this Baha’i prophet and all other ordinary men who make mistakes and correct them later on? What kind of an Omniscient God do Baha’is believe in that cannot foresee the troubling consequences of his revelations and changes them multiple times and gives out newer versions and editions?!'

Source:
Twelve Principles:
A Comprehensive Investigation on
the Baha’i Teachings
Masoud Basiti, Zahra Moradi, Hossein Akhoondali
Translated by: Hossein Akhoondali, Ali Mansouri
page 216-217

Which can be downloaded here: https://dn790009.ca.archive.org/0/items/TwelvePrinciples/Twelve Principles - A Comprehensive Investigation on the Bahai Teachings.pdf

TL : DR? What criterion demonstrate a person is *not* the "return of Christ"?
As I understand it, your argument is that a person who is not infallible can not be the return of Christ, because Christ was infallible. That argument only works if you think that Christ was infallible. Do you?

Anyway, in my understanding, Baha'u'llah claims a kind of oneness with Christ, but it's questionable to me whether or not he's claiming to be the return of Christ in any of the ways that people might think. Of course I'm not sure how anyone actually is thinking about it. Certainly not the return, because if he is a return of Christ, so are Muhammad and the Bab.

(later) Also, I don't think "infallible" in the writings of Baha'u'llah, if he ever actually uses that word, means what people think it means.

(later) He does, at least 140 times according to Ocean 2.0 Reader.
 
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Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Glad to hear it.

*Staff Edit*
Genghis Khan and his supposed action of violation towards me (that is a triggering image for many women, so not a respectful tactic in discussions or debates, please don't do such again) has nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion of "religious beliefs."
Children can be assisted to make discoveries by pointing out errors in their thinking that had not occurred to them in my view.
Children hardly ever take to heart a parent's "pointing out errors in their thinking." Have you forgotten that parent's don't know jack. LOL
I'm not doing that, if people want to call out to God through Baha'u'llah or dancing naked with a chicken claw hung from their neck around a camp-fire or whatever harmless thing good luck to them in my view.
Terrific! So what IS your interest in Baha'i?
Ok

Yeah Rumi is contradicting himself in that meme, he is laying a rule that the hearts have to be sincere to be heard (does God have a hearing problem?) whilst at the same time saying there are no rules.
You're confusing worship with prayer. God hears all, but sincerity is the only requirement for worship. Light a candle, or not. Kneel, or not. Take the sacraments, or not. Speak, or remain silent. Worship is acknowledgements of majestic awe. . .
I'll admit I sometimes doubt if God exists but if an omnipotent God exists I feel certain that it is well capable of hearing all prayers, the reason it does not intervene in any of them is because it does not want to in my view, sincerity has nothing to do with it.
You have a tendency to make simple things of spirituality difficult. Relax <3
God doesn't mind, IMO.
 
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danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
As I understand it, your argument is that a person who is not infallible can not be the return of Christ, because Christ was infallible. That argument only works if you think that Christ was infallible. Do you?
No I do not think Jesus was infallible nor do I consider him a "Christ" in any greater sense than that we are all such.
Anyway, in my understanding, Baha'u'llah claims a kind of oneness with Christ, but it's questionable to me whether or not he's claiming to be the return of Christ in any of the ways that people might think. Of course I'm not sure how anyone actually is thinking about it. Certainly not the return, because if he is a return of Christ, so are Muhammad and the Bab.
That's what he implies, that himself, Muhammad and the Bab are the returns of Christ as opposed to us all being Christs in my view
 

Niatero

*banned*
No I do not think Jesus was infallible nor do I consider him a "Christ" in any greater sense than that we are all such.

That's what he implies, that himself, Muhammad and the Bab are the returns of Christ as opposed to us all being Christs in my view
Yes, that's how it looks to me.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Genghis Khan and his supposed action of violation towards me (that is a triggering image for many women, so not a respectful tactic in discussions or debates, please don't do such again) has nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion of "religious beliefs."
Well I apologise for triggering you, however in my view the point stands that if people take comfort in something that harms others (even be it a belief), it is still bogus.
Children hardly ever take to heart a parent's "pointing out errors in their thinking." Have you forgotten that parent's don't know jack. LOL
They don't take it to heart short term, but as one who didn't listen to my parents as a teenager and learned to respect them through that path I can confidently say that in my personal experience they do take it to heart long term, or at least I did. Can't say I'm not projecting my own experience onto others with any certainty though.
Terrific! So what IS your interest in Baha'i?
For a long term I was a Baha'i, so I inadvertently made statements about gays etc which I now consider harmful. Having been through that ditch, I'm committed to warning others of what lies ahead should they choose to pursue that path. I dont expect everyone to listen short term, but long term I believe it will dissuade the non gullible from going into the whole infallibility belief too blindly like I did.
You're confusing worship with prayer. God hears all, but sincerity is the only requirement for worship. Light a candle, or not. Kneel, or not. Take the sacraments, or not. Speak, or remain silent. Worship is acknowledgements of majestic awe. . .
So God hears worship but not prayer? Sounds kind of self serving dont you think?
You have a tendency to make simple things of spirituality difficult. Relax <3
God doesn't mind, IMO.
It may surprise you but I feel quite relaxed. You probably wouldn't want to see me worked up lol
 

Niatero

*banned*
If Christ is in everyone then there is no need for one Christ to treat another Christ as an infallible person to be deferred to, making the whole concept of an individual "return of Christ" bogus in my view.

And I believe that one form of charity is when one can see a person headed for a ditch to warn them of the danger that lies ahead. Unfortunately in my view the danger that potentially lies ahead for treating Baha'u'llah as infallible is people being literally burned, unwarranted censorship to protect hagiographic notions of Messengers etc.
I don't see the larger Baha'i community heading that way.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't see the larger Baha'i community heading that way.
Well the Baha'i faith is so relatively small at the moment that the emergence of conservatives who cling strictly to Baha'u'llah's orders are minuscule, but in a purely hypothetical world where everyone is indoctrinated to believe that Baha'u'llah's orders are infallible wisdom conservatives are likely to emerge in large numbers in my view.

Fortunately I believe that due to the vigilance of those who point out the flaws of the Baha'i faith a Baha'i world is entirely unlikely.

There's a saying "no one ever counts the bombs that didn't go off" from a decent movie which I can't remember the name of at the moment. But it applies here i believe. Thanks to the vigilance of people such as myself and others I believe people aren't joining the faith in large enough numbers to see human beings get burnt. So no one is counting the numbers of humans not burnt or the number of gays not fined into poverty etc so to outsiders it probably looks like much ado about nothing lol *shrugs* that's life.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Well I apologise for triggering you, however in my view the point stands that if people take comfort in something that harms others (even be it a belief), it is still bogus.
You didn't trigger me, but it could have been devastating to someone browsing, so a heads up -- words DO matter.
They don't take it to heart short term, but as one who didn't listen to my parents as a teenager and learned to respect them through that path I can confidently say that in my personal experience they do take it to heart long term, or at least I did. Can't say I'm not projecting my own experience onto others with any certainty though.
But going through that "stage" and getting to the other side relatively unmarked is the goal of all parents. I'm fortunate mine found their independent ways with their roots properly planted.

That's what I hope for all "seekers" as well. That they don't get too scarred walking through the thorns to get to their favorite roses. Or maybe they prefer blackberries?
For a long term I was a Baha'i, so I inadvertently made statements about gays etc which I now consider harmful. Having been through that ditch, I'm committed to warning others of what lies ahead should they choose to pursue that path.
I think everyone goes through a time of denouncing what they don't understand or what they fear. A religion doesn't have to be the starter pistol. Reminding others to be kind should be in our daily repertoire with everyone.
I dont expect everyone to listen short term, but long term I believe it will dissuade the non gullible from going into the whole infallibility belief too blindly like I did.
I dipped my toe in the Southern Baptist pool nearly fifty years ago. I have very strong feelings still, however, the majority of my friends and neighbors are Southern Baptist so there's no getting away from it. I listen to a lot that makes me want to roll my eyes at the very least, but it would only alienate them. They worry so for my soul because I refuse to accept their invitations. Just yesterday I had the annual knock on my door with the little bag of homemade cookies and the personal invitation to revival that begins in Sunday night. They'll pray for me, bless their hearts.
So God hears worship but not prayer? Sounds kind of self serving dont you think?

It may surprise you but I feel quite relaxed. You probably wouldn't want to see me worked up lol
Go back and reread - God hears all! Sincerity is directed at worship. Why go to sit in a church when you don't even listen to the sermon? Why put money in the offering plate when you won't even hold the door for "those people"? One is better at worshiping when they sit on the beach and contemplate all the wonders before their eyes.

I don't mean relax in your demeanor, but in your mission. Vinegar only attracts those nasty little fruit-flies. ;-)
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
We do? How about the wars going on in the middle east, for one example?
You can only control yourself, but you can be an example to all. Imagine what a difference it would make in this world if more lived their faith convictions!
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You can only control yourself, but you can be an example to all. Imagine what a difference it would make in this world if more lived their faith convictions!
(no kidding...) But going over your post again,
"We are to show charity, tzedakah, to ALL, friend and foe, and we are to love God with all our heart and soul, so if we are doing these things, we see Christ in everyone."
So are you saying that we do or don't see Christ in everyone because I don't think we see everyone shows charity to ALL...
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think everyone goes through a time of denouncing what they don't understand
Lol, lack of understanding is not the problem in my view.
But if you can demonstrate where I've not understood the Baha'i faith please do so, I might learn something.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I believe that Baha'is and other groups who claim to follow the return of Christ have their questions incomplete.

One not only needs a criteria of what a true claimant would look like, when multiple people make the case to fit those criteria, it is also helpful to have a set of criteria for what a false claimant would look like, so this thread is for how we can know that a claimant is *not* Christ.

In that regard I think it is helpful for as not only to know what a Christ is, but also what a Christ is not.

According to Baha'u'llah (one of the numerous "return of Christ" claimants), one of the features of Christ is that he is infallible. Though I dont know if this claim is justified in the Biblical texts, nonetheless it would be unwise to treat a demonstrably fallible person as if infallible.

So one of the things that might be a criterion of *not* being the Christ is making errors in one's own holy writings, having them pointed out by another fallible human, then having to re-edit the text multiple times.

But then Baha'u'llah appears to *not* be a return of Christ in my view because that is what he appears to have done;

'Bahā’u’llāh is probably the only Prophet ever who has revised and changed the errors in his own writings, and the only erring infallible. Unfortunately, some people fail to see why these errors must not be committed by a divine figure who carries God’s messages. Some people fail to realize that God’s words don’t need to be edited, proofread, and changed, especially if they have been penned by the “Unerring Pen.” To make matters worse, the UHJ explicitly mentions that many of the changes were suggested to Bahā’u’llāh by an ordinary person: 481 Bahā’u’llāh, Majmū`iy-i alwāḥ-i mubārak-ih, p. 71. 482 Bahā’u’llāh, Majmū`iy-i alwāḥ-i mubārak-ih, p. 78. 483 This can be deduced from his statement “then they would be like your words,” which was uttered by Bahā’u’llāh to state that there must be a difference between the words of God and the words of the people and this difference exists in the grammatical conventions. 217 It is important to note that the stylistic and grammatical changes mentioned above took place over time—often it was Zayn himself that suggested them—and therefore the various manuscripts differ somewhat, one from the other.484 These words show how helpless Bahā’u’llāh was in correcting his errors. Every time he fixed the errors some more were found and he was again forced to make changes in the book and give out a new revised version. He even needed a fallible person to point out these errors and give him suggestions. Thus, the book was not revised once but numerous times. If these changes were made to “to forestall the cavils of the opponents of the Cause” then why not change it accordingly once and shut the mouth of the opponents once and for all. Are the words of God some sort of joke that must be changed every time someone objects to them? The words of God are perfect they need not be changed for style and grammar. These acts by Bahā’u’llāh are in direct contradiction with the claimed infallibility and divine knowledge attributed to him. What is the difference between this Baha’i prophet and all other ordinary men who make mistakes and correct them later on? What kind of an Omniscient God do Baha’is believe in that cannot foresee the troubling consequences of his revelations and changes them multiple times and gives out newer versions and editions?!'

Source:
Twelve Principles:
A Comprehensive Investigation on
the Baha’i Teachings
Masoud Basiti, Zahra Moradi, Hossein Akhoondali
Translated by: Hossein Akhoondali, Ali Mansouri
page 216-217

Which can be downloaded here: https://dn790009.ca.archive.org/0/items/TwelvePrinciples/Twelve Principles - A Comprehensive Investigation on the Bahai Teachings.pdf

TL : DR? What criterion demonstrate a person is *not* the "return of Christ"?

There are "signs", given regarding second coming of Christ in the Bible and in the Quran, and Hadithes. If someone claims to be a Christ today, if his coming does not match with the signs given in Previous Holy Books, then you know it is not really Him.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
(no kidding...) But going over your post again,
"We are to show charity, tzedakah, to ALL, friend and foe, and we are to love God with all our heart and soul, so if we are doing these things, we see Christ in everyone."
So are you saying that we do or don't see Christ in everyone because I don't think we see everyone shows charity to ALL...
Of you see the good in someone regardless of everything else that may be more prominent, then you're seeing their God spark. You're seeing their potential, the part of them God knows and loves and dies not give up on. When you see or feel this goodness, you should be drawn by your God spark to do them a kindness, and perhaps they do so for you.

The exciting thing is when you do a kindness without seeing/feeling their spark, and your kindness sets it off like a sparkler.

Have you ever looked at a stranger in the grocery store, or somewhere else equally "normal" and with a simple kind or affirming word turned a down-and-out look into a tired but pleasant smile? That's showing charity, "tzedahad", or "doing the right thing" in making someone's moment a bit better.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Lol, lack of understanding is not the problem in my view.
But if you can demonstrate where I've not understood the Baha'i faith please do so, I might learn something.
This response to your post was not about a lack of understanding of the Baha'is, but I was speaking to your admission of being led to talk badly about gays. Everyone goes through some phase of peer pressure or influence where they talk about other people badly. People who they may fear, or perhaps don't understand, such as homosexuals, a different race, different nationality, different income bracket -- whatever. It doesn't take a religion to bring this out in someone, although I have found that many religions seem to feed that ole beast.
 
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