If a person claiming to be Christ comes today, how do you know it is really *not* him?

[Spice]

That's not exactly what I was saying. I mean various people have various opinions about what the future will bring. And of course, the scientists at the Doomsday Clock do say the human race is pretty close to destruction at its own hands -- so since you talk about moment to moment helping people feel good, that's why I asked what you think about the future.

It is my belief that life is a circle but it does slowly progress forward. ie. Do some people still use public execution? Yes. But fewer, and the methods in many cases are studied to find more "humane" means. Even the most primitive methods no longer use slow skinning alive, or disembowelment as standard public square fare. But this example is a very short view in time.
I believe in world without end, but that doesn't mean evolution won't continue to make enormous changes. There was humanKIND before Homo-Sapiens, and I believe some humanKIND will continue afterwards. I believe whatever comes, it will continue to be "closer to God" somehow. . .closer to the return to Eden, metaphorically.

 

[YoursTrue]

It is my belief that life is a circle but it does slowly progress forward. ie. Do some people still use public execution? Yes. But fewer, and the methods in many cases are studied to find more "humane" means. Even the most primitive methods no longer use slow skinning alive, or disembowelment as standard public square fare. But this example is a very short view in time.
I believe in world without end, but that doesn't mean evolution won't continue to make enormous changes. There was humanKIND before Homo-Sapiens, and I believe some humanKIND will continue afterwards. I believe whatever comes, it will continue to be "closer to God" somehow. . .closer to the return to Eden, metaphorically.

There is a difference between chimpanzees and humans. That difference has not been resolved by some Unknown Common Ancestor which to this day has not been found. Brain-wise (cognitively within the realm of thinking) there is a rather large difference between humans and chimpanzees. That also would include the physical differences.

 

[Spice]

By the way, if you're going to quote that, how about this: 1 Thessalonians 5:3 - While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."

Matthew is Jesus-speak. Thessalonians is Paul-speak. Whenever the two show ANY inclinations of differing, I go with Jesus.
Jesus is speaking to the inner being of individuals. Paul is speaking to the leadership of a new congregation of followers. It the difference of hearing the wisdom of the ages and the political advice of the era. Let those who have "ears to hear", hear the message they need for today.

 

[Spice]

There is a difference between chimpanzees and humans. That difference has not been resolved by some Unknown Common Ancestor which to this day has not been found. Brain-wise (cognitively within the realm of thinking) there is a rather large difference between humans and chimpanzees. That also would include the physical differences.

I have said nothing about chimpanzees. The majority of humankind today have genetic markers of Neanderthal along with Homo-Sapien, both of which evolved from Homo-Erectus and possibly in combination of others yet undiscovered or provable. We will continue to evolve, adapt, change, survive.

 

[CG Didymus]

the claims of Christ.

That important in this discussion. We have books that have the words of Baha'u'llah. There are some things that I agree with and some that I don't. Since the claim is that his writings are from God, then what am I supposed to say? That I disagree with God, or that I don't believe the claim about Baha'u'llah being a manifestation of God and is speaking for God.

Some Christians have made the Bible and the NT the inerrant word of God. But it has several different writers. And even when we only look at the places in the NT that say they are quoting Jesus, how do we really know? If a person wants to trust the writers are telling the truth and accurately quoting Jesus, then why not believe them when they talk about the things that happened to Jesus and things that he did?

Unfortunately, for a lot of people, I think because the way these Scriptures are written it forces people to accept them completely or reject them completely.

 

[Trailblazer]

How some adherents of a religion act have little bearing on the truth of the claims of the Messenger. I recognize terrible things some who claim to be Christians have done and it makes no difference to me when I evaluate the claims of Christ.

I was going to say that but you beat me to the punch.

How some adherents of a religion act have NO bearing on the truth of the claims of the Messenger.
It is just an excuse some people use to rank on the Baha'i Faith.

I do not have anyone on ignore but maybe I should put certain people on ignore because I am tired of the negativity an judgmental attitude..

 

[Trailblazer]

The criteria are exactly the same:

- he won't make an entrance (all this won't happen: "revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels", "the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken", "every eye will see him"...)

- he won't judge the world and cleare all the wicked people

- he won't resurrect dead people

- he won't be the king of the world

...

The man who is the return of Christ won't do any of those things.

 

[YoursTrue]

I have said nothing about chimpanzees. The majority of humankind today have genetic markers of Neanderthal along with Homo-Sapien, both of which evolved from Homo-Erectus and possibly in combination of others yet undiscovered or provable. We will continue to evolve, adapt, change, survive.

Since I believe the Bible in that God made man different from chimpanzees, I do believe He can enable those He loves to live forever.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[Spice]

Since I believe the Bible in that God made man different from chimpanzees, I do believe He can enable those He loves to live forever.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Leave the chimps out of this, please. I certainly did. The poor little things get such a bad rap. They're nothing like humans. LOL

 

[danieldemol]

I notice that the source of this is from Tehran.

Genetic fallacy in my view

Is the Iran government behind these people? We can strongly suspect this is just calumny and propaganda.

Genetic fallacy combined with an unconfirmed suspicion in my view

Since it from people who are not Baha'i I guess we are to think it is objective in some way, which I see as nonsense.

False equivocation and untrue in my view, they fully reference their work to Baha'i sources, some of which are available in English and online at Baha'i sources. For example they give the quote;
"It is important to note that the stylistic and grammatical changes mentioned above took place over time—often it was Zayn himself that suggested them—and therefore the various manuscripts differ somewhat, one from the other"
As being referenced to;
Christopher Buk, edited by Juan R. Cole and Moojan Momen, Symbol and Secret: Qur'an Commentary in Baha'u'llah's Kitab-i-Iqan, p27
Say what you want about the other scholars, but Moojan Momen is surely above contempt in Baha'i circles?

By the way that source is in enlgish online and lo and behold -the exact quote appears on page 29 at Bahai-library.com at the following link;

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/b/buck_symbol_secret.pdf

I think Baha'is can discount this. Others can evaluate it as they want to. Are people supposed to read over 600 pages of calumny?

Thats cute but I referenced only 2 pages for you to read - specifically pages 216-217

We have to counter this the 4 volumes of The Revelation of Baha'u'llah by Adib Taherzadeh for instance. I encourage others to read that as a counterpoint. You've already made up your mind on this, which is your right. I've made up my mind on this, which is my right.

Here are links to the 4 volumes:

The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volume 1, Cover

The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volume 2, Cover

The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volume 3, Cover

The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volume 4, Cover

So to sum up the Baha'i process of "independant investigation of truth" we have in my view;
1 Genetic fallacy
2 Suspicion/calumniation of the source
3. False equivocation
4. False claim of a gish gallop (ie Are people supposed to read over 600 pages of calumny?)
5. An attempted feeble so called refutation of "Read 4 (From memory there's 5 and yes I've read all of them) volumes of the Revelation of Baha'u'llah" Which is Baha'i hagiography written by the Baha'i salesman Adib Taherzadeh.

 

[danieldemol]

That website with information that was posted about Baha'u'llah is anti-Baha'i propaganda. Bahā’u’llāh did not revise or change any errors in His own writings.

@Niatero see post #50 above and decide for yourself if it can fairly be considered "anti-Baha'i propoganda" and/or that Baha'u'llah "did not revise or change any errors in His own writings"

 

[CG Didymus]

@Niatero see post #50 above and decide for yourself if it can fairly be considered "anti-Baha'i propoganda" and/or that Baha'u'llah "did not revise or change any errors in His own writings"

So, should there be an investigation? An investigation to see if it is true or not? Seems possible to test this and find proof one way or another. Like maybe check out more of the references.

I have my own test going. It's about Baha'u'llah saying that copper will turn into gold. It's been over fifty years now, since I buried some pennies and some copper pipe. Hopefully, if he's telling the truth, I'll be rich in a few more years.

 

[Niatero]

I was going to say that but you beat me to the punch.

How some adherents of a religion act have NO bearing on the truth of the claims of the Messenger.
It is just an excuse some people use to rank on the Baha'i Faith.

I do not have anyone on ignore but maybe I should put certain people on ignore because I am tired of the negativity an judgmental attitude..

I regret saying anything about the behavior of people preaching about beliefs that they call Baha’i beliefs. I’m not sure it’s any worse than the behavior of people preaching about other beliefs. Just different I don’t know why I’m picking on people preaching “Baha’i beliefs.”

 

[soulsurvivor]

What criterion demonstrate a person is *not* the "return of Christ"?

If we go by prophecies, the Bible says clearly 'every eye will see him' - I would say hardly anyone has seen Bahaullah or knows what Bahaullah looks like.

If you go by Islamic prophecy - a Hadith says the Imam Mahdi will lead the prayer and Jesus will be praying behind the Mahdi - there has been no such event with Bahaullah.

Bahaullah is definitely not the Return of the Christ.

 

[Niatero]

@Niatero see post #50 above and decide for yourself if it can fairly be considered "anti-Baha'i propoganda" and/or that Baha'u'llah "did not revise or change any errors in His own writings"

Well, yes it does look like anti-Baha’i propaganda to me, but that doesn’t mean that none of it is true. I don’t see any reason to doubt what it says about Baha’u’llah revising his words.

Citing Momen doesn’t impress me at all. His work doesn’t look honest and responsible to me. One of his articles looked to me like nothing but a hit piece against some people, masquerading as scholarship.

 

[Truthseeker]

That depends on the claims of the messenger. If he claims that following his teachings will improve society, then the behavior of his followers has everything to with the truth of his message. Even so, I don’t think that we can learn anything at all about it from the behavior of people evangelizing, using its name as a label for their beliefs.

It's too bad if Baha'is are doing that, it's not good for anybody.

 

[Truthseeker]

There are some things that I agree with and some that I don't. Since the claim is that his writings are from God, then what am I supposed to say? That I disagree with God, or that I don't believe the claim about Baha'u'llah being a manifestation of God and is speaking for God.

The answer is obvious to me: You don't believe in the claims of Baha'u'llah. I don't think you would disagree with God if you knew what God knew.

 

[danieldemol]

Well, yes it does look like anti-Baha’i propaganda to me, but that doesn’t mean that none of it is true. I don’t see any reason to doubt what it says about Baha’u’llah revising his words.

Citing Momen doesn’t impress me at all. His work doesn’t look honest and responsible to me. One of his articles looked to me like nothing but a hit piece against some people, masquerading as scholarship.

Momen is a well respected Baha'i as far as I know.

 

[Niatero]

Momen is a well respected Baha'i as far as I know.

Maybe well respected by some feuding Baha’is. Not by me.

 

[danieldemol]

FYI This is from Moojen and Wendi Momen's website;
interests:

"We are both Baha'is" Moojen's wife Wendi is "a member of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United Kingdom."

Source: Momens' Home Page