To the contrary in my view, you not having an adequate response does not mean one would not be required for a critical thinker to be intellectually satisfied Tony.
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If a person claiming to be Christ comes today, how do you know it is really *not* him?
- Thread starter danieldemol
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I don't know and I don't care.
I am not promoting anything. I could not care less what people believe or disbelieve.
I am only responsible for my own beliefs on judgment day.
On judgment day God is not going care if I knew what king was mentioned on a certain page of Gleanings.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
First, I agree there is much good to be discerned from the writings of Paul. Let's not forget that the author of Peter states Paul is often difficult to understand. It is oftentimes missed that Paul was instructing his new church leaders, not preaching to today's Scripture readers. This is why I emphasize to always find support from the Gospels, and even better, find support of the Gospels from the Tanakh from which Jesus often quoted. This is tremendous help in bypassing mistranslation, though not perfect.
So, I'll start with Thessalonians as requested.
This is one I hear very, very often from conservative Christians in reference to EBT recipients and the like. If read in full context it is clear that Paul, as in all his letters, was talking to church leaders, not the congregants. So I follow it up with Tanakh support, and Gospel support:
2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, we gave you this command: If any one will not work, let him not eat.
Isaiah 58:10
...if you pour yourself out for the hungry
and satisfy the desire of the afflicted,
then shall your light rise in the darkness
and your gloom be as the noonday.
Matthew 25:35-40
...for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
So here are some others to contemplate:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Luke 6:37
"Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;...
1 Timothy 2:9
...also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire...
John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."
Romans 9:16
So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.
Matthew 7:21-23
"Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'
1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues.
Ephesians 4:11
And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,....
1 Timothy 2:7
For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
2 Timothy 1:11
For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher,...
Matthew 23:8
But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.
John 10:16
And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.
NAMASTE
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Christians believe these verses mean that Jesus Christ is going to come back to earth again.
Acts 1
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
1 Thessalonians
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
But Jesus said he was not coming back to this world, so that contradicts what Paul said.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
No more means no further, never again.
no more
nothing further.
"there was no more to be said about it"
no further.
"you must have some soup, but no more wine"
exist no longer.
"the patch of ground was overgrown and the hut was no more"
never again.
"mention his name no more to me"
neither.
"I had no complaints and no more did Tom"
Oxford Languages and Google - English | Oxford Languages
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
That is a Christian or a Muslim belief. Do you Bahais accept it?
What I glean from various Bahai posts is that you are in Paradise and near Allah the day you accept the 19th Century Iranian as a manifestation of Allah.
You do not seem to be that happy even with your acceptance of the 19th Century Iranian. Why doubts? What need to worry?
Hare-Keiahnas say that you are in Vrindavana the day you accept Krishna and Shrimati Radha Rani.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, Baha'is believe there is a judgement day.
Hardly. My life has been a holy living hell since I became a Baha'i 54 years ago. That was not caused by becoming a Baha'i but in spite of becoming one.
I have no doubts that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be but life goes on and there are hardships in this earthly life.
No, I am not happy that my late husband died suddenly after 37 years of marriage and I have no children or grandchildren or other family.
The only thing that brings me happiness that is of this world are the cats and other animals and nature. You can have the rest of it.
Just as well you and your God have a don't care attitude towards the writings of your preacher in my view, if you two don't care there doesn't seem much need for the rest of us to care
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I see no reason why anyone should care about certain things that are minor, given all the major things we should care about.
There is no excuse one can use, and that is one of the most weak and lame excuses available. Baha'u'llah has recorded that exact excuse is not acceptable.
Regards Tony
If Baha'u'llah finds my reasons for rejecting him unacceptable he can go jump in a lake and cool off
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I don't know why you think He would care, especially given that He said that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone except himself.If Baha'u'llah finds my reasons for rejecting him unacceptable he can go jump in a lake and cool off
Muffled
Jesus in me
The thing is that the anti-Christ will talk like Jesus, so one must remember that Jesus is not coming to rule until after the world ends.If a person claiming to be Christ comes today, how do you know it is really *not* him?
Answer is simple: To know it really is Him, you need to be on His level of consciousness
IF you are *not* THEN it's just hearsay
First Lesson in Spirituality:
"Be humble and use Common Sense"
My guess: This reply won't get many likes
Muffled
Jesus in me
I have never heard a Bahai state that he received Jesus as Lord and Savior and believed the Paraclete was in him. Have you?It is not necessary unless you are a Christian or a Baha'i, so you are off the hook.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe that is what it says in Hebrews, It is appointed unto men once to die and then God Judges. I do not believe that is a final judgment, nor do I think it is always between Heaven or Hell.
Which is interesting, that would mean they have 2 judgements.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, because that is not what Baha'is believe.
I was referencing Tony's more Orthodox conservative interpretation, not yours in my view.
Feedmysheep
Member
For the most part "church leaders" as in elders, were simply mature disciples shepherding others. Look at the qualifications for elders and deacons in the epistles to Timothy. The characteristics of such was mostly normal, healthy characteristics which ALL Christians might well endevour to emulate. Sober, mange household well, not addicted to much wine, holding the mystery of the faith in a good conscience, husband of one wife, not a busybody, grave, apt to teach, hospitable, etc. etc. Every believer should be eager to express Christ in them in these ways.
Now the other epistles beside the so-called "pastoral epistle" are written to all of the churching congregation. So I do not understand exactly your point that we should remember Paul is somehow not addressing readers of Scripture down through the ages?
We need all the help we can get - from the Gospels, from the Old Testament, and from the Acts and epistles.
Without Paul's completing ministry we would be incomplete in seeing a bird's eye view of the entire Bible (Col. 1:27).
Under God's sovereignty Paul contributed so much to the NT - some 13 or so letters.
The Tanakh is the picture. The New Testament is the caption underneath the picture.
When I read Christ's mighty prayer and John 17 I know I need the letter of Ephesians to bring into focus
the petition of Christ for the building up of this corporate entity which is in God and God in them.
Paul really had a crystal clear vision of Christ's ministry. And better yet Paul showed the practical way
believers can enter into that vision. Actually the same must be said of John's and Peter's letters.
But I emphasize Paul's central letters here - Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians.
And Romans is the best organized outline of the Gospel of God.
And First and Second Corinthians are discriptions of the typical new testament church with its many challenges.
The letters to the Thessalonians are wonderful window into how Paul and his co-workers conducted themselves among this young church.
You can see that I hold Paul's minstry very highly. I do not at all understand popular suspicions that Christians should be wary of his ministry.
We need all the help for every direction in Scripture available to us.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Yes, I see. So we disagree. I believe Christians should be wary from what I personally experience in Christian belief and more importantly, Christian behavior, that is based on Paul's words. Paul kept Jesus's work alive through the centuries. This is good. But if words are laid side by side in question, I take Christ's every time.
Feedmysheep
Member
I am not at all sure what Christ emphazied which his apostle Paul did not likewise emphasize.
After considering I ask myself "Well, did Paul say we should not be wary?" No, he also said we should be wary.
Then I ask myself "Well, did Paul not emphasize Christian behavior?" No, he did not under emphasize Christian behavior.
Then I ask myself "Can words of Paul be misunderstood or applied in some twisted way?" Yes, but that is also true of the "red letters" of the words of Jesus as well. I fail to discern any difference in the healthy intake of Christ's words and those of his apostle Paul.
As to the last statement about laying words side by side? Of course Christ's words are the complete foundation of the words written by his apostles. I do not see a dichotomy. I do not see an either / or choice.
Paul wrote we should be imitators of God as children of God with His life dispensed into believers.
Be therefore imitators of God, as beloved children; (Eph. 5:1)
Paul wrote that we should be imitators of God AND of himself and of his examplary co-workers.
Be imitators together of me, brothers, and observe those who thus walk even as you have us as a pattern. (Phil. 3:17)
Paul wrote that we should be imitators of himself and held up Timothy as good follower by exmple.
I exhort you therefore, Become imitators of me.
Because of this I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, even as I teach everywhere in every church. (1 Cor. 4:16,17)
Lastly if you believe as I do that Paul most likely wrote Hebrews, he wrote that we Christians should be imitators
of all those who are inheriting the great promises of God.
That you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and long-suffering are inheriting the promises. (Heb. 6:12)
I think you sound something of a false alarm about the Apostle Paul.
If you have run into some difficulty (as all persuers of God will), is it Paul's fault? Remember he wrote we should imitate through faith and long-suffering pioneering
examples.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
The anti-christ will claim to be God .. Jesus does not make that claim in the Gospel, despite
Orthodox Christian creed.
The anti-christ will be the most greatest of hypocrites .. and that's how we will know that he
does not represent truth, and hence God Almighty.