If a person claiming to be Christ comes today, how do you know it is really *not* him?

[Spice]

I am not at all sure what Christ emphazied which his apostle Paul did not likewise emphasize.

After considering I ask myself "Well, did Paul say we should not be wary?" No, he also said we should be wary.
Then I ask myself "Well, did Paul not emphasize Christian behavior?" No, he did not under emphasize Christian behavior.

Then I ask myself "Can words of Paul be misunderstood or applied in some twisted way?" Yes, but that is also true of the "red letters" of the words of Jesus as well. I fail to discern any difference in the healthy intake of Christ's words and those of his apostle Paul.

As to the last statement about laying words side by side? Of course Christ's words are the complete foundation of the words written by his apostles. I do not see a dichotomy. I do not see an either / or choice.

Paul wrote we should be imitators of God as children of God with His life dispensed into believers.
Be therefore imitators of God, as beloved children; (Eph. 5:1)

Paul wrote that we should be imitators of God AND of himself and of his examplary co-workers.
Be imitators together of me, brothers, and observe those who thus walk even as you have us as a pattern. (Phil. 3:17)

Paul wrote that we should be imitators of himself and held up Timothy as good follower by exmple.
I exhort you therefore, Become imitators of me.
Because of this I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, even as I teach everywhere in every church. (1 Cor. 4:16,17)

Lastly if you believe as I do that Paul most likely wrote Hebrews, he wrote that we Christians should be imitators
of all those who are inheriting the great promises of God.
That you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and long-suffering are inheriting the promises. (Heb. 6:12)

I think you sound something of a false alarm about the Apostle Paul.
If you have run into some difficulty (as all persuers of God will), is it Paul's fault? Remember he wrote we should imitate through faith and long-suffering pioneering
examples.

Just a couple for your contemplation:
2 Corinthians 12:11
I have been a fool! You forced me to it, for I ought to have been commended by you. For I was not at all inferior to these superlative apostles, even though I am nothing.
Luke 16:15
But he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
**********
Philippians 3:4-5
Though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If any other man thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more:
circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law a Pharisee,...
Luke 18:9-14
He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.'
But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

 

[Feedmysheep]

Just a couple for your contemplation:
2 Corinthians 12:11
I have been a fool! You forced me to it, for I ought to have been commended by you. For I was not at all inferior to these superlative apostles, even though I am nothing.
Luke 16:15
But he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
**********
Philippians 3:4-5
Though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If any other man thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more:
circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law a Pharisee,...
Luke 18:9-14
He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.'
But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

I thoroughly enjoyed musing on these verses.
I guess you think that they say something about Paul being self-righteous, self-vindicating?
Did you read the whole letter of Second Corinthians?
Did you read the entire letter to the Philippians?

All things considered, by and large, I cannot come to that conclusion.
My view is that God waited until this man was good and mature before He entrusted to him so much ministry.
These few candid instances when he really opened his heart to the audience reveal to me exceptional consecration to his Lord.
As I read your selections I couldn't help but recall what ELSE he wrote.

He was forced by the suspicious Corinthians to speak sounding like a fool.
But his doing so was for their benefit more than his own. Much could be said about your examples.
But I stop this post here.

Remember that Jesus said as they criticized Him so also would his servants receive similar treatment.
A disciple is not above the teacher, nor a slave above his master.
It is sufficient for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the Master of the house Beelzebul, how much more those of His household! (Matt. 10:24,25)

 

[Spice]

I thoroughly enjoyed musing on these verses.
I guess you think that they say something about Paul being self-righteous, self-vindicating?
Did you read the whole letter of Second Corinthians?
Did you read the entire letter to the Philippians?

All things considered, by and large, I cannot come to that conclusion.
My view is that God waited until this man was good and mature before He entrusted to him so much ministry.
These few candid instances when he really opened his heart to the audience reveal to me exceptional consecration to his Lord.
As I read your selections I couldn't help but recall what ELSE he wrote.

He was forced by the suspicious Corinthians to speak sounding like a fool.
But his doing so was for their benefit more than his own. Much could be said about your examples.
But I stop this post here.

Remember that Jesus said as they criticized Him so also would his servants receive similar treatment.
A disciple is not above the teacher, nor a slave above his master.
It is sufficient for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the Master of the house Beelzebul, how much more those of His household! (Matt. 10:24,25)

I've read it all many, many times in depth, and with all kinds of commentary "help." I'm a follower of Christ's The Way, a worshipper of the One Creator God, and a careful skeptic of all words written by man, but with open heart for the Spirit to lead.

 

[Feedmysheep]

I've read it all many, many times in depth, and with all kinds of commentary "help." I'm a follower of Christ's The Way, a worshipper of the One Creator God, and a careful skeptic of all words written by man, but with open heart for the Spirit to lead.

Then you may understand my scepticism at the view sounding like "Jesus we follow. But this Apostle Paul fellow, he tended to mess things up."

This to me is like Jesus breaking the two fish and five barely loaves. And then He gave to His disciples to distribute to the thousands.
And the miracle of multiplication God performed and all were fed. But if one in the crowd refused to accept thier portion from the disciples and said "Oh no! Let Jesus Himself come down and put my portion in my hand. I don't receive these pieces from you apostles. You don't know what you're doing. I'll only accept pieces of food from your Master directly."

I don't think this attitude necessarily honors Christ. Rather it could imply that the God is not too wise. He can't be trusted that those delegated to serve should be trusted as faithful. While only Christ is the Perfect Man He is not altogether without faithful sent ones to carry out the new testament ministry.

 

[Spice]

I don't think this attitude necessarily honors Christ. Rather it could imply that the God is not too wise.

A bit of an overstep. I'm at peace with my faith. I hope you are as well.

 

[Feedmysheep]

I don't think I have overstep about the principle of your devaluing Paul.
Jesus said that He would send such men, some of which would be opposed.

Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, (Matt. 23:34)

I don't think it is an overreach to believe that suspicion of one whom God's providence ordained to author so much of the New Testament
may be indicative of Christ's prediction. I don't mean you are violent though.
I think you're implying that God was not too smart to have sent the Apostle Paul.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Just a couple for your contemplation:
2 Corinthians 12:11
I have been a fool! You forced me to it, for I ought to have been commended by you. For I was not at all inferior to these superlative apostles, even though I am nothing.

For the sake of countering these militant detractors of his ministry he was forced to boast in a foolish way.
The same man said he was less than the least of all saints.
To me, less than the least of all saints, was this grace given to announce to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel. (Eph. 3:8)
The same man said he was not fit to be called an apostle because of his persecution of the church.
For I am the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. (1 Cor. 15:9)

Luke 16:15
But he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Paul knew that God knew his heart to the uttermost. Therefore he could only keep his conscience void of offense before God and men as a practice.

Because of this I also exercise myself to always have a conscience without offense toward God and men. (Acts 24:16)
Though Paul exercised to have nothing he was aware of as bothering his conscience, he did not assume by this God was not aware of
some undiscerned problem.
For I am conscious of nothing against myself; but I am not justified in this, but He who examines me is the Lord. (1 Cor. 4:4)

Paul was soberly concerned that having preached to others, he himself might lose the reward of reigning with Christ in the millennium.
But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest perhaps having preached to others, I myself may become disapproved. (1 Cor. 9:27)

The bottom line here is that the man practiced to be aware of nothing as an offense in his conscience.
Yet he also realized God is greater than his heart and knows all things. And it is God who will examine him always.
The application of Luke 16:15 towards the Apostle Paul is a misaiming.

In the middle of his career he did not consider that he had already obtained moral perfection.
Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue, if even I may lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do: Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before, (Phil. 3:12,13)

It is only at the very end of his life when he knew he was about to be martyred that he had confidence that he had completed his course and run his race.
For I am already being poured out, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought the good fight; I have finished the course; I have kept the faith.
Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, with which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will recompense me in that day, and not only me but also all those who have loved His appearing. (2 Tim. 4:6-8)

**********
Philippians 3:4-5
Though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If any other man thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more:
circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law a Pharisee,...

You misunderstand the whole reason why Paul is speaking of his pedegree. This is amazing how you miss the point. He is establishing the constrast as to having given UP all these accolades in order to persue REAL value, REAL preciousness in Jesus Christ. Reading on . . .

As to zeal, persecuting the church; as to the righteousness which is in the law, become blameless. (v.6)

But what things were gains to me, these I have counted as loss on account of Christ.
But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith, (Phil. 3:7-9)

Luke 18:9-14
He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

You really missed the whole reason for Paul listing his accolades (including being such a Pharisee that he persecuted the church).
He is not saying he trusts in these things. He is saying he gave all this pedegree up because of the surpassing preciousness of Jesus Christ.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.'
But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

This is a totally inapropriate comparison.
Jesus said we should be careful HOW we hear or it can lead to very bad misunderstanding. We could even lose what light we do have.

Take heed therefore how you hear, for whoever has, it shall be given to him, and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him. (Luke 8:18)

 

[Spice]

I think you're implying that God was not too smart to have sent the Apostle Paul.

This is the sort of thing that is out of bounds. You're making a discussion/debate personal. And degrading another's faith/beliefs. I'll not participate. Worship Paul if you chose.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Christians believe these verses mean that Jesus Christ is going to come back to earth again.

Definitely His physical return is taught. Yet two gospels Matthew and John, conclude as if He never left the earth.
So the total matter is nuanced. Yes He is absent. And No He is not absent.
Ie. And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age. (Matt. 28:20b)

No one said that the Bible is always easy to understand.

Acts 1
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

This is one passage saying that as the believers saw Him ascend up in a cloud to heaven, in like manner they will see Him return to earth
from heaven. Why should we not take this passage at face value in simplicity?

1 Thessalonians
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Why should we Christians not also take this passage at face value in simplicity?

But Jesus said he was not coming back to this world, so that contradicts what Paul said.

Included in the many things Paul taught about the indwelling of Christ within the believers, he ALSO taught of
Christ's physical appearing in His second coming.

Why should we Christians not accept BOTH revelations at face value?

Paul speaking of Christ being formed in people and being joined to thier innermost spiritual being does not negate His
outward return, descending from heaven. Are you trying to make the two teachings fight against each other?

He taught that we should not only love Christ but also love His appearing.
Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, with which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will recompense me in that day, and not only me but also all those who have loved His appearing. (2 Tim. 4:8)

Being probably the author of the epistle to the Hebrews -

Christ will appear a second time - So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time to those who eagerly await Him, apart from sin, unto salvation. (Heb. 9:28)

Christ will be brought again into the inhabited earth - And when He brings again the Firstborn into the inhabited earth, (Heb. 1:6a)

So the Apostle Paul was only reiterating what Jesus Christ Himself had taught.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

It is true that after His ascension, THAT generation of disciples would see Him physically no more.
That does not mean that a latter generation plus the resurrected believers would not see Him physically again.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:16,17)

Again, Paul was only reiterating what Jesus had taught.

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice
And will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life;
and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (John 5:28,29)

Apparently, you are still marveling that Christ said such a thing?

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

You cannot isolate this one passage as a proof text that Christ has no second coming.
Yes, that generation of disciples would see Him no more. For they were to die before His second coming.

He trained them over a period of 40 days to live by His invisible presence.
He would appear to them. And then He would hide from them His appearing.
They got well trained. They got trained to the point that they were willing to suffer torture and death for His name.
They KNEW that He was alive and available and with them - living within them.

You cannot isolate John 16:10 to make a case that there will be no second coming, no resurrection, and no appearing of every believer
before Christ at His bema seat of examination.

For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, (2 Cor. 5:10a)

For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God, (Rom. 14:10c)

And the Apostle John also weighs in, that we will see Him even as He is. So we ought to receive Him and abide in Him.
Then we will have boldness before Him when He is manifested.

And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested,
we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming. (1 John 2:28)

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will be. We know that if He is manifested, we will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is. (1 John 3:2)

Furthermore Jude assures the believers that Christ is able through His redemption to present them BEFORE Him sanctified, at His coming.

But to Him who is able to guard you from stumbling and to set you before His glory without blemish in exultation, (Jude 24)

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

You are just repeating formerly stated errors. And I am repeating formerly stated corrections to them.
His work of redemption on the cross He finished.
But His heavenly ministry and work to build His church is continuing on since then.
He is still working - working Himself as life into the fabric of the beings of those who open their whole lives to Him.
That is work.

As Paul says, Christ is WROUGHTING something in the way of working even since His ascension.

Now He who has wrought us for this very thing is God, who has given to us the Spirit as a pledge. (2 Cor. 5:5)

Christ as the life giving Spirit He became (1 Cor. 15:45) is doing the work of forming Himself within those who allow Him.
And Paul was assisting in this work by ministering (and still ministering through his letters) to the Christians.

My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you, (Gal. 4:19)

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

The very same prayer indicates that the perfected Christians will see Him, behold Him, behold His glory, and even eternally share in that glorious manifestation of God in man and man in God. It is in the very SAME PRAYER.

Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:24)

 

[Feedmysheep]

The anti-christ will claim to be God .. Jesus does not make that claim in the Gospel, despite Orthodox Christian creed.

Jesus made that claim to be God, the God of the Old Testament become a man.

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! (Matt. 23:37)

It was always God Himself who cared for Jerusalem, as a bird flutters over her young (Isaiah 31:5; Deut. 32:1-12)
Jesus was indicating that He was that protective bird over His people Israel and Jerusalem. Hence He was saying that He was God incarnate.
How often I desired to gather your children together,

Jesus said He was God, the great I AM who was before Abraham existed. Hence He said He was the eternal God become a man.

The Jews then said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am. (John 8:57,58)

 

[Trailblazer]

Definitely His physical return is taught.

I know what Christianity teaches about His physical return, but I believe it is false.

This is one passage saying that as the believers saw Him ascend up in a cloud to heaven, in like manner they will see Him return to earth
from heaven. Why should we not take this passage at face value in simplicity?

You are free to believe anything that you want to believe.

Why should we Christians not also take this passage at face value in simplicity?

You are free to believe anything that you want to believe.

Included in the many things Paul taught about the indwelling of Christ within the believers, he ALSO taught of
Christ's physical appearing in His second coming.

Why should we Christians not accept BOTH revelations at face value?

Paul speaking of Christ being formed in people and being joined to thier innermost spiritual being does not negate His
outward return, descending from heaven. Are you trying to make the two teachings fight against each other?

You are free to believe anything that you want to believe. Just don't expect me to believe it because I think it is patently absurd to believe that a physical body would drop down from heaven through the clouds in the sky. Aside from that, according to Paul, there are no physical bodies in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.

Christ will appear a second time - So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time to those who eagerly await Him, apart from sin, unto salvation. (Heb. 9:28)

Christ will be brought again into the inhabited earth - And when He brings again the Firstborn into the inhabited earth, (Heb. 1:6a)

So the Apostle Paul was only reiterating what Jesus Christ Himself had taught.

No, Paul was not reiterating what Jesus Christ Himself had taught. Jesus never said that He was coming back to this world.
Jesus said that he would be no more in this world, so what Paul wrote runs completely contrary to what Jesus taught.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Jesus never said that he was going to return to this world, not even once in the entire New Testament. All we have in the NT are other authors saying that Jesus would return.

It is true that after His ascension, THAT generation of disciples would see Him physically no more.
That does not mean that a latter generation plus the resurrected believers would not see Him physically again.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:16,17)

Jesus did not only say that His disciples would see Him no more.
Jesus said that the world would see Him no more and that He would be no more in the world. No more means never agai

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Again, Paul was only reiterating what Jesus had taught.

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice
And will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life;
and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (John 5:28,29)

Apparently, you are still marveling that Christ said such a thing?

We were talking about whether Jesus will ever return to this world, and those verses do not say that Jesus will return to this world.
I believe that those verses are true, but I interpret them very differently from how Christians interpret them.

“According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 220-222

You cannot isolate this one passage as a proof text that Christ has no second coming.
Yes, that generation of disciples would see Him no more. For they were to die before His second coming.

Jesus did not only say that His disciples would see Him no more.
Jesus said that the world would see Him no more and that He would be no more in the world. No more means never again.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

You cannot isolate John 16:10 to make a case that there will be no second coming, no resurrection, and no appearing of every believer
before Christ at His bema seat of examination.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

I can and I will, since that verse is confirmed by other verses that say that Jesus would be no more in this world.

For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, (2 Cor. 5:10a)

For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God, (Rom. 14:10c)

I believe these are false teachings. Paul may have believed they were true but that is proof of nothing, except that he was wrong.

You are just repeating formerly stated errors. And I am repeating formerly stated corrections to them.

You are just repeating formerly stated errors. And I am repeating formerly stated corrections to them.

His work of redemption on the cross He finished.
But His heavenly ministry and work to build His church is continuing on since then.
He is still working - working Himself as life into the fabric of the beings of those who open their whole lives to Him.
That is work.

It is work that Christians are doing. It is not work that Jesus is doing.

As Paul says,

Don't waste your time telling me what Paul says because I believe most of what Paul taught about Jesus is false, and it is not in accordance with what Jesus taught.

How Paul changed the course of Christianity

This is an excerpt from the book entitled The Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ by Udo Schaefer. This section explains how Paul changed the Christianity of Jesus. It is important to note that the views expressed by this author reflect his individual perspective and...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[Feedmysheep]

I know what Christianity teaches about His physical return, but I believe it is false.

The "anity" doesn't matter. What Christ taught is what matters.
And His physical return is what He teaches.

As a matter of fact He also speaks of His coming in the tone of WARNING that believers not be caught by it unaware.
If therefore you will not watch, I will come as a thief, and you shall by no means know at what hour I will come upon you.(Rev. 3:3b)
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:42)

You are free to believe anything that you want to believe.

That has a kind of gracious sound to it.
Meanwhile you go selectively cherry picking portions of passages that you want to use to affirm Baha'i dogma.

You are free to believe anything that you want to believe.

The Bible is my bases for the belief. That is the writing which holds the divine authority for Christians.
Your authority is the writings of Baha'i.

You are free to believe anything that you want to believe. Just don't expect me to believe it because I think it is patently absurd to believe that a physical body would drop down from heaven through the clouds in the sky. Aside from that, according to Paul, there are no physical bodies in heaven.

For the sake of some others reading along I do respond some.
Physical bodies in heaven or not is not the determining factor of Christ's second coming.
I mean, He is there with a glorfied body. I cannot tell you exactly what that is except He is fully Man and God.
He is God and man. That is not almost a man. That is fully a man. And He returns as "the Son of Man."

And at that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matt. 24:30)

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.

But you see it does still use the word BODY, doesn't it?
So bodies of different levels of glorification are still bodies.

So the question is not really "Well how many such glorified bodies now exist in heaven?"
Regardless, we are told ONE definitely is there and will return - Jesus Christ the Son of Man.

Jesus said to him, You have said rightly. Nevertheless I say to you, From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven. (Matt. 26:64)

Jesus was indicating that He was that divine Son of Man that Daniel saw in vision first ascending to God the Father and then
being given an everlasting kingdom on the earth.

I watched in the night visions, / And there with the clouds of heaven / One like a Son of Man was coming; / And He came to the Ancient of Days, / And they brought Him near before Him.

And to Him was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom, / That all the peoples, nations, and languages might serve Him. / His dominion is an eternal dominion, which will not pass away; / And His kingdom is one that will not be destroyed. (Dan. 7:13,14)

The high priest and the experts in the Hebrew Bible understood what He was saying. And their reaction was to condemn Him to immediate execution. You can't say they didn't comprehend exactly what He was claiming to be.

Then the high priest tore his garments, saying, He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think? And they answered and said, He is worthy of death. (Matt. 26:65,66)

No, Paul was not reiterating what Jesus Christ Himself had taught. Jesus never said that He was coming back to this world.
Jesus said that he would be no more in this world, so what Paul wrote runs completely contrary to what Jesus taught.

This is your selective cherry picking of passages to make your case. I have to take into account ALL that He said and ALL that
the New Testament teaches.

Jesus did not only say that His disciples would see Him no more.
Jesus said that the world would see Him no more and that He would be no more in the world. No more means never agai

As stated - I have to take into account the fuller scope of ALL that He spoke.
These words INCLUDE a dramatic reappearing which the world cannot miss because of its spectacular glory.

And at that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matt. 24:30)

I did not say that is the ONLY aspect of His coming again. I say that is a part of it - unmistakable, dramatic, a world wide spectacle.

To those watching to abide in His indwelling presence, He precedes this manifestation with an inward sense in some like a morning star
rising in their hearts. They sense His nearness from within like the morning star appears at the night's darkest hour.

I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright morning star. (Rev. 22:16b)

And to him I will give the morning star. (Rev. 2:28)

And we have the prophetic word made more firm, to which you do well to give heed as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; (2 Pet. 1:19)

So Jesus Christ the Lord comes from without from above AND He comes from within. Both aspects are vital.
His coming forth from indwelling the hearts of those loving His appearing is taught.
And His coming from without, dramatically from above, unmistakingly spectacular to the world.

 

[Trailblazer]

The "anity" doesn't matter. What Christ taught is what matters.
And His physical return is what He teaches.

As a matter of fact He also speaks of His coming in the tone of WARNING that believers not be caught by it unaware.
If therefore you will not watch, I will come as a thief, and you shall by no means know at what hour I will come upon you.(Rev. 3:3b)
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:42)

No, neither one of those verses are Jesus saying that HE will return to this world. Rev. 3.3b is a man called John speaking and Matt. 24:42 is not Jesus referring to Himself. Your Lord is not Jesus since Jesus is not the Lord.

Jesus never taught that He would return to this world. Christianity teaches that.

Physical bodies in heaven or not is not the determining factor of Christ's second coming.
I mean, He is there with a glorfied body. I cannot tell you exactly what that is except He is fully Man and God.
He is God and man. That is not almost a man. That is fully a man. And He returns as "the Son of Man."

There is no such thing as a glorified body. There are only physical bodies and spiritual bodies.
The glorified body is only a Christian dogma, it is not in the Bible.

Likewise, there is no such thing fully Man and God.
Fully Man and God is only a Christian dogma, it is not in the Bible.

And at that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matt. 24:30)

But you see it does still use the word BODY, doesn't it?
So bodies of different levels of glorification are still bodies.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man...

www.religiousforums.com

Regardless, we are told ONE definitely is there and will return - Jesus Christ the Son of Man.

Jesus said to him, You have said rightly. Nevertheless I say to you, From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven. (Matt. 26:64)

Jesus did not say to him, You have said rightly. Nevertheless I say to you, From now on you will see me sitting at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven. That is because the return of the Son of Man(return of Christ) was never slated to be Jesus.

Jesus was indicating that He was that divine Son of Man that Daniel saw in vision first ascending to God the Father and then
being given an everlasting kingdom on the earth.

I watched in the night visions, / And there with the clouds of heaven / One like a Son of Man was coming; / And He came to the Ancient of Days, / And they brought Him near before Him.

And to Him was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom, / That all the peoples, nations, and languages might serve Him. / His dominion is an eternal dominion, which will not pass away; / And His kingdom is one that will not be destroyed. (Dan. 7:13,14)

Christians believe that the following verses are about Jesus, but since Jesus was the Son of man the following verses cannot be about the Jesus.

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Those verses are about Baha'u'llah who was one like Jesus.

Jesus ascended into heaven. Baha’u’llah, one like the son of man, descended from the heaven of the Will of God, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Those verses are about an earthly Kingdom, not a heavenly Kingdom. Jesus’ Kingdom is in heaven, Baha’u’llah’s Kingdom will be on earth, after it is built by humans.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

As stated - I have to take into account the fuller scope of ALL that He spoke.
These words INCLUDE a dramatic reappearing which the world cannot miss because of its spectacular glory.

And at that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matt. 24:30)

I did not say that is the ONLY aspect of His coming again. I say that is a part of it - unmistakable, dramatic, a world wide spectacle.

That verse is not about Jesus and it has been badly misinterpreted by Christians.

Son of man coming in the clouds means that the return of Christ will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

In other words, the judgment of most people was clouded when Christ returned and it is still clouded for most people.
One thing that clouds the judgment of Christians is their desire for the same Jesus to return to earth.

Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although they were delivered from the womb of their mother, Manifestations of God have in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, their true habitations are the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, they soar in the heaven of the divine presence.

 

[CG Didymus]

As a matter of fact He also speaks of His coming in the tone of WARNING that believers not be caught by it unaware.
If therefore you will not watch, I will come as a thief, and you shall by no means know at what hour I will come upon you.(Rev. 3:3b)
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:42)

Not knowing the hour or day would keep a person on their toes. But Baha'is think they know the year, 1844. And they point to William Miller as a Christian who Baha'is think correctly figured things out the year and came up with 1844... the very year one of the Baha'i prophet declared himself as being sent by God.

They also use the 1260 days in Revelation and make it into years and say that the year 1260 in the Islamic calendar is what is being prophesied. And, 1260 in the Islamic calendar is the year 1844.

I personally think that William Miller was wrong in adding the 2300 years to the year the decree went out to rebuild Jerusalem. And the problem I have with Baha'is using the 1260 days in Revelation and making them years is that there are at least six times they find things that they can make to mean 1260 years. And each event starts and stops at different times. None of them last from day one, the year of the Hegira in 621 AD to 1844.

Anyway, do have any comments about any of this? Thanks.