Tumah
Veteran Member
If by "covenant" you mean are they a part of the covenant between G-d and the Jews, then you are wrong. Please.
Regards.
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If All the Prophets Were Muslims, Then What Is Islam?
- Thread starter wizanda
- Start date
Regards.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
If All the Prophets Were Muslims, Then What Is Islam?
Then one should obey the message they had been given by G-d.
Then one should obey the message they had been given by G-d.
Think you're missing the point; if Abraham was a prophet, who followed Islam, there was no Torah, Gospel or Quran....
So to follow Islam isn't anything to do with following the messages, it is to do with following/submitting to the Oneness of God.
Rajina
Member
Islam is submission to God.Based on the Quran it is saying that all the prophets were Muslims; which means a Muslim has nothing to do with following the book, as most Muslims now commonly ascribe...
So what is the definition of someone who follows Islam, if it came before the Quran existed?
A Muslim and Islam mean, 'one who submits to peace (of God)'.
As salam is the root meaning peace, not only submission.
So since the prophets all submitted to God's will, and believed in the Oneness of God....Does this make them all Muslims?
So the 5 pillars of Islam are not essential for being a Muslim, none of the religious law in the Quran is essential to being a Muslim.....
Basically have people created a religion around the idea of accepting the Oneness of God?
How do we submit to God? By living our life as per His guidance. In order to follow His guidance, we need to accept that the guidance we have received is the guidance from Allah. Or in other words we have to accept the person who brought the guidance as the messenger of Allah.
All previous prophets were Muslims because they submitted themselves to Allah and lived their lives as per the guidance that they received from Allah. Their followers were Muslims because they accepted them as prophets and followed the guidance.
We submit to God by living righteously; and all the morality information available to us can help us to do that....
So whereas the Quran says, 'not to make distinctions among the messengers (globally)'; modern day so called religious followers of the Quran, are not worthy to be called Muslims, in comparison to the previous messengers.
Rajina
Member
There are lots of contradictory information about what is moral and what is immoral.How do we know what is righteous from all the morality information available to us .
Quran repeatedly asks us to obey Allah and His messenger. The messenger referred to here refers to the messenger sent to us. Following him doesn't mean that we are making distinction between the prophets. All prophets came with the same message. The teachings of previous prophets are not available to us in its unaltered form. I didn't mean that the previous scriptures are completely corrupted. But people have mixed up truth with falsehood. I think you know it better than me. Why don't we follow the unaltered message from God instead of applying deductive logic on the previous altered ones? After all its all from the same God.So whereas the Quran says, 'not to make distinctions among the messengers (globally)'; modern day so called religious followers of the Quran, are not worthy to be called Muslims, in comparison to the previous messengers.
We learn morality from the contradictions, that is the way we learn; so as something contradicts within our own logic, we then work out what is right from all the information available to us.
There is no perfect guide to morality, as it is always increasing the more we all learn....
For instance say you've attained paradise, and are now with the saints, do you think our normal morality down here, will be classed as perfect morality there?
Again it is a continuous role of the individual to always seek a higher level of understanding.
The previous revelations in many places are fine, and can easily be assessed with the Quran as a criterion.
The prophets don't all sit in heaven arguing which book is best, there is just the Oneness of God, that is Islam....
What people are following down here, isn't what any prophet could ever accept as it is in the unity of the messages, there is Oneness.
It is like holding up one piece of a jigsaw puzzle, that fits together precisely, and saying this is the best part i don't need the rest....
That is why Muhammad said he was a seal, a last part in a big picture, not the only part.
The problem is that Islam stands or falls by Mohammed and the Koran. If the Koran says no one can changes allahs words then the the Bible isn't corrupted. Why do Muslims insist that the Bible is corrupted when the Koran and Muhammad clearly says it's not. Either the Bible is corrupted which invalidates Islam or the Bible is true which invalidates Islam. The talk of Muslims in Jesus's time is not possible as to be a Muslim you must believe in allah AND Mohammed as his messenger. Muhammad did not exist in Jesus's time.
Sadly though that's not the worst part. You see for what I spoke of above is the great Islamic dilemma. The worst part is that the first mention of the name Mohammad is by caliph abin Malik in 691. When he had Mohammad's name on a coin. Before that even though there was a great Arab conquest from Spain to India they called themselves saracens, or Ishmaelites. While there was someone called the prophet and his name may have bin Mohammad there is no historical evidence about his life and teachings other than oral tradition from that period. The Hadith were complied 2 centuries later. If you doubt me read it for yourself on the Islamic awareness website. The 4 uthamnic manuscripts are not complete and have over 2 thousand instances of variance from the Koran of today. Read dr tom holland. Dr Patricia Cronin dr Dan Gibson. All historians:
Limo
Active Member
Morality is 2 categories. one category is meant about killing, thift, adultery, respecting parents, homosexuals, incest,We learn morality from the contradictions, that is the way we learn; so as something contradicts within our own logic, we then work out what is right from all the information available to us.
There is no perfect guide to morality, as it is always increasing the more we all learn....
For instance say you've attained paradise, and are now with the saints, do you think our normal morality down here, will be classed as perfect morality there?
Again it is a continuous role of the individual to always seek a higher level of understanding.
The previous revelations in many places are fine, and can easily be assessed with the Quran as a criterion.
The prophets don't all sit in heaven arguing which book is best, there is just the Oneness of God, that is Islam....
What people are following down here, isn't what any prophet could ever accept as it is in the unity of the messages, there is Oneness.
It is like holding up one piece of a jigsaw puzzle, that fits together precisely, and saying this is the best part i don't need the rest....
That is why Muhammad said he was a seal, a last part in a big picture, not the only part.
Second category is about being a about use good and nice words, respect elders, help weak and disabled,,,,
The first category is an absolute morals and shouldn't be changed by time. if we leave it to humans, humans don't have something absolute, by time humans can accept what was called a crime in the past, as something nice to have, then become a must. so we shouldn't relay on human being knowledge in first category.
Second category is subject to change overtime in the way we do.
Regarding the different prophets and different messengers, Allah who is Almighty who revealed all books to all prophets told us the following :
- Qur'an is the complete, comprehensive, last book
- Allah promised to keep Qur'an without any changes, uncorrupted
- We must believe in all previous books but follow laws in Qur'an only
Limo
Active Member
Allah committed to keep Qur'an uncorrupted, it's in the Qur'an itself. there is no such commitment in previous books. vice versa, Jeremiah 8:8 told Jews before Christianity that they are following the lying pens of the scribes
Muslim followed previous prophets like Ibrahim, Isaac, Jacob, Mosa, and Elmesiah must believe in the one Almighty and his time prophet and previous prophets
Limo
Active Member
Take my advice my friend stop repeating this nonsense speech.
A quick look into Qur'an, you'll find name of Prophet Mohamed repeated there 4 times.
Variation between Uthmanic manuscript and current copy is in the head of the ignorant people you've just mentioned their name above.
I challenge you to describe here one change only just one from the 2thousands mentioned in that false research
arthra
Baha'i
All the Prophets according to the Qur'an submitted to the will of God... It doesn't make Them all "Muslims" in the sense of adherents to a particular religion. The Qur'an acknowledges "People of the Book"... i.e., Christians and recognizes the Torah and the Gospel:
"Those who believe (in the Qur'án) and those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, and who believe in Allah and the last day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 2:62)
- So where does the Quran say it is the last book?
- Where in the Quran does it say it can't be changed?
- Where does it say you've got to only follow the laws within the Quran, without understanding all the previous revelations in context?
As for the Quran being an ultimate source morality, sorry huge amounts of people who've studied religion would beg to differ, the Quran ranks very low in terms of morality, when compared to some other none Abrahamic religions.
'Submitted to the will of God' is what Muslim means....There are numerous Surah's saying they were all Muslims.
OurCreed
There is no God but Allah
As for the Quran being an ultimate source morality, sorry huge amounts of people who've studied religion would beg to differ, the Quran ranks very low in terms of morality, when compared to some other none Abrahamic religions.
- So where does the Quran say it is the last book?
- Where in the Quran does it say it can't be changed?
- Where does it say you've got to only follow the laws within the Quran, without understanding all the previous revelations in context?
'Submitted to the will of God' is what Muslim means....There are numerous Surah's saying they were all Muslims.
1) So where does the Quran say it is the last book?
The Qur'an states in 33;40:
Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and Seal of the prophets. And ever is Allah, of all things, Knowing.
All prophets according to the Qur'an brought down revelation from God to the people. This does not include those people who were only messengers. All prophets were also messengers, but not all messengers were prophets. Everyone sent down by God is by default a messenger, but that messenger who is also given revelation which became part of a book is considered a prophet on top of that.
Notice in 33;40 how God states that Muhammad is a messenger of God, and also says he is the Seal of the prophets. God did not say he is the Seal of the messengers, that is because more messengers after Muhammad can still come, it is just that they will obviously not bring about any revelation which will become part of a book. So since Muhammad is the Seal of the prophets, it means that his prophethood which is connected with him being given the scripture (Qur'an), it is being sealed, just like you seal a book together. This means the Qur'an is the last book, along with Muhammad being the final prophet.
2) Where in the Quran does it say it can't be changed?
6;115
The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
10;64
…the words of God are unchangeable.
3) Where does it say you've got to only follow the laws within the Quran, without understanding all the previous revelations in context?
45;6
These are God's revelations (Qur'an) that We recite to you truthfully. In which hadith other than God and His revelations (Qur'an) do they believe?
12;111
This (Qur'an) is not fabricated hadith, but an authentication of what is with you, a detailed account of all things and guidance and mercy for people who believe.
16;89
We have brought the Book down to you providing explanations for all things plus guidance and mercy and giving news to the submitters (Muslims).
7;2-3
You shall all follow what has been brought down to you from your Lord and do not follow any allies besides Him. Rarely do you remember
-----
As for the Quran being an ultimate source morality, sorry huge amounts of people who've studied religion would beg to differ, the Quran ranks very low in terms of morality, when compared to some other none Abrahamic religions.
Of course others beg to differ, that is because they haven't properly read the Qur'an and/or make their biased judgement about the text.
arthra
Baha'i
I think this is a widespread view of what "Seal" means but "Seal" can also mean a seal of authority... in this case that Muhammad represents an authentic Prophet and not necessarily the "last" Prophet. Christians tend to argue similarly that where it says in the Book of Revelation "I am the Alpha and the Omega..the first and the last".
How does the Qur’án apply the word “seal” to Muhammad?
[Muhammad is]...God’s Messenger and the Seal of the Prophets.
~ Qur’án 33:40
Saying that Muhammad is “the Seal of the Prophets” is equivalent to saying that He is “the official signature” of God’s great Teachers and Messengers. The wikipedia article raises this issue:
According to Alford T. Welch, the traditional Muslim belief that Muhammad is "last and greatest of the prophets" is most likely based on a later interpretation of 33:40.[40]
The first modern academic to have studied in detail the history of the doctrine of finality of prophethood is Yohanan Friedmann.[41] In his seminal article, Finality of Prophethood in Sunni Islam (1986), he concluded that although the notion of finality of prophethood "eventually acquired an undisputed and central place in the religious thought of Islam," it was contested during the first century AH.[2] He states, "While it is true that the phrase khatam an-nabiyyin is generally interpreted as meaning 'the last prophet', the exegetical tradition and other branches of classical Arabic literature preserved material which indicates that this now generally received understanding of the Qur'anic phrase is not the only possible one and had not necessarily been the earliest."[2][41] Due to this Friedmann states that the meaning of khatam an-nabiyyin in its original Qur'anic context is still in doubt.[2]
From:
Khatam an-Nabiyyin - Wikipedia
Seal isn't the last, it was closure of the things prophesied in the Bible about the great deception; there have been more prophets since Muhammad.
God's word stems from God; not some religious texts that has been handed down.
That doesn't specify it is talking about the Quran, as being the words of God.... It is talking about what God puts in place, isn't ever removed, not some book.
I'm appalled that some religious people, actually think the words in a book, compare to the words from God.
When the Quran even stated, "31:27 And if all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea, with seven more seas to help it, (were ink), the words of Allah could not be exhausted. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise."
In context that says, if people will not believe all the signs in life, and won't believe this book has been revealed, what other proofs could establish God's existence to them...
It has nothing to do with abrogating the Biblical text.
Whereas the Quran clearly says, "not to make distinctions among the books globally, and that is what all the prophets follow" (2:285, 3:84, 2:136)....
Which means Islam is to accept all the books, and anyone who claims to be a Muslim otherwise, doesn't follow the Quran.
Considering you're quotes are a modern Muslim understanding, this is a joke in terms of reading the Quran properly....
I've never come across such bad comprehension of what is written, to what it means.