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If Christ comes today, how do you know it is really Him?

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth.
So, that makes a Baha'i very special.
As to those who have remained deprived of such blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. (Bahá’u’lláh, The Dawnbreakers, p. 586)
And for those that reject the Baha'i Faith? It's their "acts". They weren't good people?
Baha'u'llah has also offered, that in this day, we have been openly invited by the Manifestation to embrace God, what greater bounty is there? Why would we choose to ignore?
For most of us, it comes down to being told about this "invitation" by Baha'is. Making it necessary for Baha'is to tell people about the Baha'i Faith. And to try and give convincing arguments as to why it is true to get those people to at least investigate and see for themselves if the Baha'i Faith is true.

Those people did not "ignore" this "invitation". The Baha'i Faith isn't for everybody. But it kind of claims it is. Should Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and the rest of the people in all the other religions stay with their old religions? No.

The claim of the Baha'i Faith is that their prophet, Baha'u'llah is the return of the person promised in all the other religions. He is the fulfillment of any prophecy made in any of the other religions. Baha'is claim that Baha'u'llah is the one, the "Promised One" of all religions.

People have heard about the Baha'i Faith and have investigated it... and, for now, have rejected it. Some joined the Baha'i Faith and then dropped out. They gave it a try. It didn't work for them.

Are there good reasons to accept the Baha'i Faith? Sure. But are there reasons to question it and even reject it? I think there is. How do Baha'is handle those questions, and how do they handle rejections? Not too well. But that's understandable. They believe they have the truth.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I would not.

I would not care much, either. But if I ever met a claimant (we have one here in Brazil: "Inri Cristo") I would attempt to learn enough of what he or she said to gauge his wisdom or lack thereof.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
More likely is that neither is completely wrong, nor completely right. Look at the commonalities rather than the differences and I believe you'll be closer to the truth. The truth of the Mysteries are beyond humankind, IMO, but sincere seeking is the correct path. However, sincere is not indoctrination, in my belief. I believe sincere is only through peaceful rebellion. FAITH -- questioning without end......
Namaste
Hey nothing wrong with looking at the commonality. And Baha'is try and do that. But then push it to the next level... the things all religions have in common point to all religions being one. They take it from there to say that there is only one God. And that God has sent several manifestations/messengers, and the latest one is Baha'u'llah.

An "open-minded" person, a person with a "pure heart" will be able to see that. That person will leave off the teachings of their old religion that contradicts the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i Faith says that those things were not part of the "original" teachings of the manifestation but were added on by his followers. And other contradictions were just the followers misunderstanding the teachings and misinterpreting the teachings.

Examples of that in Christianity would be Christians making Jesus God but also believing that he literally rose from the dead. Or that there is literally a hell and Satan.

In Hinduism and Buddhism, it would be a belief in reincarnation or rebirth. And for those Hindus that believe in several Gods, that in truth, there is only one God. And for those that believe that Krishna is an incarnation of a God, that in reality, he is like Jesus or Baha'u'llah, and only a "manifestation" of God.

So, after we're all done, the only "commonality" left is what the other religions have in common with the Baha'i Faith.

If a person wants to join the Baha'i Faith, that's fine. But it means that they believe everything that Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith teaches... And that includes all the laws. And that's one thing I keep asking... How did things turn out for all those other religions that were filled with lots of laws? Laws supposedly from God?

If a person wants to see the "commonality" in their beliefs and the Baha'i Faith that's okay too. But what are they going to do with the things about the Baha'i Faith that they don't believe in?

The Baha'i Faith claims that it is the only religion that can fix the problems of the world. It is the only religion that can bring peace and unity to the world. It is meant to be believed in completely.

Right now, I don't. I have lots of questions about some of the claims and beliefs.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Hey nothing wrong with looking at the commonality. And Baha'is try and do that. But then push it to the next level... the things all religions have in common point to all religions being one. They take it from there to say that there is only one God. And that God has sent several manifestations/messengers, and the latest one is Baha'u'llah.

An "open-minded" person, a person with a "pure heart" will be able to see that. That person will leave off the teachings of their old religion that contradicts the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i Faith says that those things were not part of the "original" teachings of the manifestation but were added on by his followers. And other contradictions were just the followers misunderstanding the teachings and misinterpreting the teachings.

Examples of that in Christianity would be Christians making Jesus God but also believing that he literally rose from the dead. Or that there is literally a hell and Satan.

In Hinduism and Buddhism, it would be a belief in reincarnation or rebirth. And for those Hindus that believe in several Gods, that in truth, there is only one God. And for those that believe that Krishna is an incarnation of a God, that in reality, he is like Jesus or Baha'u'llah, and only a "manifestation" of God.

So, after we're all done, the only "commonality" left is what the other religions have in common with the Baha'i Faith.

If a person wants to join the Baha'i Faith, that's fine. But it means that they believe everything that Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith teaches... And that includes all the laws. And that's one thing I keep asking... How did things turn out for all those other religions that were filled with lots of laws? Laws supposedly from God?

If a person wants to see the "commonality" in their beliefs and the Baha'i Faith that's okay too. But what are they going to do with the things about the Baha'i Faith that they don't believe in?

The Baha'i Faith claims that it is the only religion that can fix the problems of the world. It is the only religion that can bring peace and unity to the world. It is meant to be believed in completely.

Right now, I don't. I have lots of questions about some of the claims and beliefs.
One of the up-and-coming connections to Ominism that I have been resistant to, as I've related to the simplicity of the definition for some years now, is a connection to 12-step programs. I'm still resistant to putting "tenants" to the Ominist view, but here is a case where it fits. If I recall correctly from my days in Alanon, they closed each meeting by saying, "take what is useful and leave the rest." That would be my answer to your question, as it is how I address all religious doctrine.

I do enjoy most of your questioning posts, BTW, as you do tend to hold to civil debate nicely. It is appreciated.

Namaste
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
So, that makes a Baha'i very special.

And for those that reject the Baha'i Faith? It's their "acts". They weren't good people?

For most of us, it comes down to being told about this "invitation" by Baha'is. Making it necessary for Baha'is to tell people about the Baha'i Faith. And to try and give convincing arguments as to why it is true to get those people to at least investigate and see for themselves if the Baha'i Faith is true.

Those people did not "ignore" this "invitation". The Baha'i Faith isn't for everybody. But it kind of claims it is. Should Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and the rest of the people in all the other religions stay with their old religions? No.

The claim of the Baha'i Faith is that their prophet, Baha'u'llah is the return of the person promised in all the other religions. He is the fulfillment of any prophecy made in any of the other religions. Baha'is claim that Baha'u'llah is the one, the "Promised One" of all religions.

People have heard about the Baha'i Faith and have investigated it... and, for now, have rejected it. Some joined the Baha'i Faith and then dropped out. They gave it a try. It didn't work for them.

Are there good reasons to accept the Baha'i Faith? Sure. But are there reasons to question it and even reject it? I think there is. How do Baha'is handle those questions, and how do they handle rejections? Not too well. But that's understandable. They believe they have the truth.
CG, this morning, due to life events, I was compelled to read the Tablet of Ahmad , a powerful prayer given as a bounty to us all.

To my amazement, to me at least, it really answers the question as to what may be a pure heart. I linked it above, if you are able to read that Tablet with absolute sincerity, then God will solve all difficulties.

I will offer some extracts that cover many things we have previously discussed.

Baha'u'llah is calling the beleivers to embrace the Bab and the ordinances given in the Bayan

".....He hath but to deliver this clear message. Whosoever desireth, let him turn aside from this counsel and whosoever desireth let him choose the path to his Lord...."

Thus there is no compulsion in religion, it is confirmed it is naught but our choice.

Then follows this undeniable challenge for us all to consider.

"...O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it, O assemblage of false ones.
Nay, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, they are not, and never shall be able to do this, even should they combine to assist one another..."

I see this is calling our hearts to naught but pure justice. The Tablet goes on and comes ro an important piece of guidance

"Rely upon God, thy God and the Lord of thy fathers. For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness..."

Most do not look with their own hearts, they are influenced by false witnesses to previous Messengers and this is really getting ro the essence of a pure heart, I see it is not being influenced by false news and willing to look for the Good that connects us all and the above verse is followed by what keeps us away from God.

"...Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great..."

This gives us fair warning as to the consequences of nit knowing our own heart.

"...Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turneth away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity..."

No matter what CG, it is your journey and your heart must take that as you so choose.

No other person can choose Faith for you. No Baha'i wants to choose a faith for you or anybody, as a Baha'i we want to unite with all that want Love, Peace, Unity, Mercy and Justice, virtues that all God given Faiths contain.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And for those that reject the Baha'i Faith? It's their "acts". They weren't good people?
I do not think we can know what Baha'u'llah meant when He said "their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation" but I do not think it means that those who reject the Baha'i Faith are not good people.

I know a lot of good people who are not Baha'is. Many of them are Christians and many are atheists and agnostics. One need only follow the teachings of Jesus to be a good person. Most atheists and agnostics I know follow those teachings about how to be a good person, even though they don't believe in God.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
More likely is that neither is completely wrong, nor completely right.
That is true, but about some things they have to be either completely wrong or completely right.
Two of those things are whether Jesus is the only way to God and whether Jesus is going to return to earth.
These are the two main beliefs that separate the Christians from the Baha'is, irreconcilable differences that can never be reconciled.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
................................I know a lot of good people who are not Baha'is. Many of them are Christians and many are atheists and agnostics. One need only follow the teachings of Jesus to be a good person. Most atheists and agnostics I know follow those teachings about how to be a good person, even though they don't believe in God.
'Need only follow the teaching of Jesus.........' because Jesus said he is the way, the truth and the life ( everlasting life )
Thing with atheists or agnostics is they don't do as Jesus said to do at Matt. 24:14; Acts 1:8 to tell others about God's Kingdom coming ( thy kingdom come........ )
- Daniel 2:44; 7:13-14
Anyway, Jesus as King is the one who will decide who is a 'sheep' or not at his coming time of Matt. 25:31-34,37
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Thing with atheists or agnostics is they don't do as Jesus said to do
Thing with most Christians is they don't do as Jesus said to do since they live for the world and they do not deny self.

The moral fiber of society has been gradually declining for the last 100 years, so much so that it was not noticed by those who were part of the moral decadence. I don't know if they ever took note in the past, but nowadays I see few people taking seriously what Jesus said about denying self.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Of course this includes denying sexual desires, when they are inappropriate to express, out of wedlock. Unfortunately nobody wants to think about self-denial so they rationalize it as a-okay since sex whenever desired is condoned by society, even encouraged and glorified!

In those verses, Jesus was saying to deny our selfish desires, things we want that are not of God, and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for self shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life and follow Jesus shall gain eternal life. If we live for self and the worldly things and things of the flesh we gain the world but we lose our soul because we lose eternal life. Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God, which according to Jesus comes from believing in Him and following in His Way.

Most Christians is they don't do as Jesus said to do since they love their life in the world.

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Anyway, Jesus as King is the one who will decide who is a 'sheep' or not at his coming time of Matt. 25:31-34,37
There is ONLY ONE plain meaning to the following verses, so Jesus is not coming back to earth unless (a) Jesus lied or (b) the Bible is in error.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. That means that the return of Christ has to be another Person.

Jesus never claimed to be a king, and Jesus never said He was coming back to judge the earth and establish an earthly Kingdom

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.


These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
"...O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it, O assemblage of false ones.
The claim is... The Baha'i Faith is the fulfilment of the past religions. If a person truly believes in any of the old religions, they will recognize that Baha'u'llah is the new prophet sent by God.

If they don't recognize that and deny that, then they are wrong and are part of the "assemblage of false ones... Whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu or any other religion. A "true" believer in any of them would have seen that the Baha'i Faith is the truth.
Most do not look with their own hearts, they are influenced by false witnesses to previous Messengers and this is really getting ro the essence of a pure heart, I see it is not being influenced by false news and willing to look for the Good that connects us all and the above verse is followed by what keeps us away from God.
This seems to imply that a person in another religion that holds a belief and interpretation that doesn't lead to recognizing the Baha'i Faith as true is a "false" witness. A person should not listen to them... but look with their heart and they will see the Baha'i Faith is the truth.
...Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God,
Contradictory beliefs and interpretations are wrong. They become "superstitious" beliefs that are "veils" from people seeing that the Baha'i Faith is the truth.
.Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turneth away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past
To reject Baha'u'llah as the latest manifestation/messenger from God is to deny Jesus, Moses, Muhammad, Krishna, Buddha and all the other previous messengers.
No other person can choose Faith for you.
No other person can choose for me? You've laid it out in a way that there is no other choice. If I don't recognize that Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith are the truth from God for today, I'm blind... I'm part of the "assemblage "of false ones... and have denied all the other messengers from God.

Wait... There's a knock on my door. Oh, it's a person telling me Jesus is the only way and not to be fooled by Satan. That he comes as an "angel" of light to deceive people.

Hmmm? Most every religion has it threats. "Better believe or else." The "or else" with the Baha'i Faith maybe not hellfire, but it is that the person that denies Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith is totally and completely wrong. A person with a "pure" heart would have recognized him.

So, what does that make them? Evil hearted? Blind and veiled followers of superstitions? And there's only one way out of that... Stop being evil hearted... Purify your heart and stop following your old "superstitious" religious beliefs, which means question what your old religion teaches and see that some of its beliefs and doctrines aren't true. The only thing true about them is the "commonalities".

Do all this and the choice should be easy, The Baha'i Faith is the one and only true religion for today. It is the only way we can build a united and peaceful world.

Only trouble is.... When a person looks deeper into the Baha'i Faith, does it still sound true? Not just part of it... but all of it?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
'Need only follow the teaching of Jesus.........' because Jesus said he is the way, the truth and the life ( everlasting life )
Thing with atheists or agnostics is they don't do as Jesus said to do at Matt. 24:14; Acts 1:8 to tell others about God's Kingdom coming ( thy kingdom come........ )
- Daniel 2:44; 7:13-14
Anyway, Jesus as King is the one who will decide who is a 'sheep' or not at his coming time of Matt. 25:31-34,37
The followers of Jesus will know his voice. That is the claim of the Baha'is... That the voice of their prophet, Baha'u'llah, is the voice of Christ. Is it?

But it's not only Baha'u'llah's voice that a Christian is expected to recognize as being from God... It is also the Bab, Muhammad, Krishna, Buddha along with the people in the Bible that Baha'is say were manifestations of God, Moses, Abraham, Noah and even Adam.

For a Christian, is there anything in the Bible or the NT that would indicate to you that Muhammad, Krishna, and the Buddha were sent by God?

But then to believe the Baha'i interpretation, a person would also be expected to believe that Abraham, Moses, Noah, and Adam were all like Jesus. The were all "manifestations" of God.

So, it not only recognizing "Christ" when he comes back, but to accept Baha'i teachings, all these other people would have to be recognized as being "Christs".

For some people that's not a problem. They are okay with a God that sends different prophets to other people. But for some Christians, is it something that they could ever believe in?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The claim is... The Baha'i Faith is the fulfilment of the past religions. If a person truly believes in any of the old religions, they will recognize that Baha'u'llah is the new prophet sent by God.
The Baha'i Faith the fulfillment of the past religions, it is a NEW religion.
Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah fulfilled the 'prophecies' of the past religions, since He was the Promised One of all past religions, but that is a different statement.

If a person truly believes in any of the old religions, they will NOT recognize that Baha'u'llah is the new prophet sent by God because they are attached to those old religions like super glue.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
The Baha'i Faith the fulfillment of the past religions, it is a NEW religion.
Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah fulfilled the 'prophecies' of the past religions, since He was the Promised One of all past religions, but that is a different statement.

If a person truly believes in any of the old religions, they will NOT recognize that Baha'u'llah is the new prophet sent by God because they are attached to those old religions like super glue.
Not necessarily, but I see your point in the possibility.

I believe prophets are recognized by those God sent them to, and prophets will continue to be sent; not to tell the future, but to inspire the truth.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Not necessarily, but I see your point in the possibility.
No, not necessarily, but usually. That is because most people do not abandon the religious traditions that they were raised in, not unless they are dissatisfied with them for some reason.
I believe prophets are recognized by those God sent them to, and prophets will continue to be sent; not to tell the future, but to inspire the truth.
I agree, Telling the future was only a small part of what the OT prophets did.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
If they don't recognize that and deny that, then they are wrong and are part of the "assemblage of false ones... Whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu or any other religion. A "true" believer in any of them would have seen that the Baha'i Faith is the truth.
A thought to consider CG, is that there is a context for these comments. Baha'u'llah addresses most of these comments to the religious leaders and not the general community.

It is the religious leaders that controlled the path of belief for their communities and are the first to reject the Messengers. It is they who become the concourse of false ones.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
The Baha'i Faith the fulfillment of the past religions, it is a NEW religion.
Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah fulfilled the 'prophecies' of the past religions, since He was the Promised One of all past religions, but that is a different statement.

If a person truly believes in any of the old religions, they will NOT recognize that Baha'u'llah is the new prophet sent by God because they are attached to those old religions like super glue.

Not necessarily, but I see your point in the possibility.

I believe prophets are recognized by those God sent them to, and prophets will continue to be sent; not to tell the future, but to inspire the truth.
I think this passage answers this aspect of faith, it is both new and eternally one.

LXX:
The world's equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind's ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.
Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause, a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it, verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.
Say: This is the infallible Balance which the Hand of God is holding, in which all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth are weighed, and their fate determined, if ye be of them that believe and recognize this truth. Say: Through it the poor have been enriched, the learned enlightened, and the seekers enabled to ascend unto the presence of God. Beware, lest ye make it a cause of dissension amongst you. Be ye as firmly settled as the immovable mountain in the Cause of your Lord, the Mighty, the Loving. (Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh)

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
That makes a person thankful and should promote great humility, as there are also ample warnings that this gift is not set in concrete, it is given and can be taken.

Regards Tony
Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. (Bahá’u’lláh, The Dawnbreakers, p. 586)
It just sounds too much like the person is the "chosen" of God. They did something good and were guided.

Those that weren't guided didn't do anything, ever, to be one of the few, the chosen ones of God to become Baha'i? They don't sound like good people. Who'd really want them in their religion anyway?

But how many people really see themselves as being evil and against God? So, to complete the journey that they were being guided on, they would then want to become a Baha'i.

Thing is... That tactic is used by Christians also. The Holy Spirit has guided them to a person, or a Church, or a message on the radio or TV. The next step is to accept Jesus into their heart and become born-again.

Sorry, but I fell for that before. The good thing about the Baha'i Faith is that is more in favor of people using their brains along with their hearts. Baha'is say to investigate, to see if the claims of religion are in harmony with science and reason.

Unfortunately, if that was true, then there might have been more Atheists here on the forum that were attracted to the Baha'i Faith. But right off, Baha'is tried to present God as being real... but had no proof to back it up. Except that Baha'u'llah, the prophet of God, was the proof and evidence that God was real... Or something along those lines.

Hey, but Tony... It's always good to hear from you.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Unfortunately, if that was true, then there might have been more Atheists here on the forum that were attracted to the Baha'i Faith. But right off, Baha'is tried to present God as being real... but had no proof to back it up. Except that Baha'u'llah, the prophet of God, was the proof and evidence that God was real... Or something along those lines.
The self, life and mesage of the chosen Messengers, are the ultimate proof God gives.

God says to us, take it or leave it, it is our choice.

"He hath but to deliver this clear message. Whosoever desireth, let him turn aside from this counsel and whosoever desireth let him choose the path to his Lord..."

Stay safe and happy CG, it appears great change may appear within years now.

Regards Tony
 
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