If Christ wasn't the messiah, what was he?

[Ben Dhyan]

my point is that every time I talk with a Christian, I don't really know what he thinks about Christ

But unless you experience the reality beyond thoughts, beyond words, beyond concepts of any sort, you can never understand. Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is not in words, but is a power.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

the 70 siblings of Jacob that came to Egypt must have talked Hebrew (Rashi Genesis 42:23).

Would you mind ...

... identifying Jacobs 70 brothers and sisters, and
... pointing out where Rashi comments on their Hebrew language skills?

Thanks

 

[rubi]

No, i think holy men write scripture and claim God wrote it in order to control the flock.

wouldn't it make them liars, not holy? I don't understand where God's place in your theology

 

[rubi]

Would you mind ...

... identifying Jacobs 70 brothers and sisters, and
... pointing out where Rashi comments on their Hebrew language skills?

Thanks

I can give reference Numbers 26, 1 Chronicles 2
The sons of Jacob talked with each other in a language they thought Josef doesn't understand.
"And Reuben answered them, saying, “Did I not speak to you, saying, ‘Do not sin against the boy’; and you would not listen? Therefore behold, his blood is now required of us.” 23 But they did not know that Joseph understood them, for he spoke to them through an interpreter." It might be not Hebrew, but it is the best guess.

 

[rubi]

But unless you experience the reality beyond thoughts, beyond words, beyond concepts of any sort, you can never understand. Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is not in words, but is a power.

but it does matter whether you believe in something that has a base in the text. unfortunately, I spoke with Christians and I got different answers. like I've asked @cOLTER whether he is an atheist. I still don't know what he believe in

No, i think holy men write scripture and claim God wrote it in order to control the flock.

case and point

 

[rubi]

Ok, how many other planets are there?

over 700 quintillions.

How many of them are inhabited by intelligent life?

none. though there isn't any contradiction of having unintelligent life in other planets

 

[Harel13]

the sentence of the wicked is 12 months, which is why we say Kadish only 11 months after his death.
sanhedrin 10:1 All of the Jewish people, have a share in the World-to-Come, as it is stated: “And your people also shall be all righteous, they shall inherit the land forever; the branch of My planting, the work of My hands, for My name to be glorified”

The mishna that states that all of Israel has a share in the world to come is immediately followed by a list of mishnayot stating the extra-ordinary cases; Jews who don't have a share.
By the way, there's an aggadah that alludes to Jesus being in hell about a century after his purported death (if you accept the Christian dating).

all I know about issues that involve the afterlife is constricted to Jews. I know nothing about the afterlife that comes to non-Jews

Okay, fair answer.

 

[Colt]

over 700 quintillions.

none. though there isn't any contradiction of having unintelligent life in other planets

Prove it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The sons of Jacob talked with each other in a language they thought Josef doesn't understand.

Just a very minor side point: the term sibling typically refers, not to sons and daughters, but to brothers and sisters.

 

[rubi]

The mishna that states that all of Israel has a share in the world to come is immediately followed by a list of mishnayot stating the extra-ordinary cases; Jews who don't have a share.
By the way, there's an aggadah that alludes to Jesus being in hell about a century after his purported death (if you accept the Christian dating).


Okay, fair answer.

it seems that you are correct and he is in hell if he was an epikoros, by this source in Tosefta Sanhedrin 13, hell is locked for epikoros
אבל המסורות והאפיקורסין והכופרין בתורה ופורשים מדרכי צבור ושאין מודים בתחיית המתים וכל מי שחטא והחטיא את הרבים כגון ירבעם ואחאב ושנתנו חיתתם בארץ חיים ושפשטו ידיהם בזבול גיהנם ננעלת בפניהם ונדונין בה לדורי דורות שנאמר (ישעיהו ס״ו:כ״ד) ויצאו וראו בפגרי האנשים וגו' שאול כלה והם אינם כלים

 

[rubi]

Just a very minor side point: the term sibling typically refers, not to sons and daughters, but to brothers and sisters.

oh, didn't know that

 

[rubi]

Prove it.

prove what? there is life on other planets? or an intelligent one? you prove it.

 

[Soapy]

the conversation on youtube was except Isaiah 14:7 is there any phrase that shows that the Messiah is the son of God? The reason that I asked this was that I saw that the Christian bible translates wrong the word "העלמה" as "a virgin" and as "the young woman". the answer I got is that it is the only considerable source, which means there was a deception by the people who edited the New Testament which as far as understand were the Romans, and since we know how important it was for them to make Christ God, it makes sense how they would stop at nothing to perfect their ability to have control over the people.

The New Testament was absolutely falsely edited to make out that Jesus Christ was God come in flesh.

A crucial Pagan belief was that a Son is equal to his Father. So when Jesus tried to defend himself by saying, ‘God is my Father’, the Jews ARE SUPPOSED to have taken it that he meant that he was EQUAL TO GOD.

But, unless you are subject to delusional summations, it is obvious that ‘No one can be EQUAL TO GOD’… (‘Who is like me… to whom am I to be compared’)

Also, in Phil 2, there is a most weird claim that the word ‘GRASP’ means ‘Having hold of’…. No! It means ‘Reaching out IN AN ATTEMPT TO TRY TO GET HOLD OF’. So the false belief is that Jesus HAD EQUALITY with God but didn’t think to KEEP HOLD OF THAT EQUALITY!!!

The truth is that the verse was saying that ‘Though Jesus was endowed with the Spirit of God, having the power of God, he didn’t think to TRY TO REACH OUT AND CLAIM EQUALITY AS GOD’.

The next part of the verse makes the point: ‘BUT INSTEAD made himself of no reputation and became a Servant’.

And we see this from prophesied in Isaiah. Particularly Isaiah 42;1 wherein God prophesied that He would empower his CHOSEN ONE: his beloved SERVANT. And qualified by later Apostles in Acts 29:37-38, and before that in the baptismal anointing event at the river Jordan where God did exactly as he prophesied by anointing His chosen one with His Spirit.

 

[Soapy]

A

I've looked on Google for "who edited the new testament", and came across this Wikipedia page saying"The earliest known complete list of the 27 books is found in a letter written by Athanasius, a 4th-century bishop of Alexandria, dated to 367 AD.[3] The 27-book New Testament was first formally canonized during the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397) in North Africa."

I thought it was known, they were the first church, they made it their official religion, there is a book called Romans in the new testament

And Athanasius is a trinitarian who created a creed stipulating that anyone who doesn’t believe in the trinity god will receive severe punishment… can you imagine how that came across to people who were unable to read (in fact, if you could read, as a normal citizen, you were considered a wizard, a witch, or a devil!!!) and who only ever hear the Scriptures from trinitarian preachers!!?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

By the way, there's an aggadah that alludes to Jesus being in hell about a century after his purported death (if you accept the Christian dating).

What, in your opinion, should one take from this? (I'm assuming that you don't take it to be literally true.)

 

[Harel13]

What, in your opinion, should one take from this? (I'm assuming that you don't take it to be literally true.)

Are you asking in general or with regards to the context of the aggadah?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Are you asking in general or with regards to the context of the aggadah?

That's a rather good question, particularly since I'm unfamiliar with its context.

I guess I'm asking two questions:

1. Do you start with the presumption -- provisional or otherwise -- that the text is literally true?
2. What do you see as the primary being communicated?

 

[wellwisher]

Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

I do apologize if anyone is offended, but I think we should have an open, respectful, and tolerant discussion about anything.
I look forward to hearing different perspectives and engaging in a thoughtful exchange of ideas.

My belief is that the God of the Old Testament was not God the Father, but Satan. This inference stems from God not wanting Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge. They were conned by Satan. God gave them to Satan, who was given the job to rule as the Lord of the Earth and care of the humans. This explains the nature of the God of the Old Testament being both good and evil. Good and Evil was the tree of Satan. The God of creation was neutral. God did not make equal parts matter and antimatter like good and evil. He made matter.

The other premise is connected to God and his Sabbath rest. On the seventh day God rested. The Bible does not tell us how long this rest lasted. We can infer that based on comparing the first six days of creation to that comes after. One may notice there is nothing as epic in the Bible, as the first six days, until Revelations; new heaven and earth. You do not need God to part the sea, since Satan could do that as Lord of the Earth. Even images of Hell has Satan connected to the Earth.

During a Sabbath rest, one is not suppose to work. If the Sabbath is an image of heavenly things, God would not be working, while he rested. He would have made arrangements in advance for others to do the chores as he rested. God assigned Satan to be Lord of the Earth, as he rested, to care for the humans. The Tree of Knowledge was arranged in advance, knowing Adam and Eve would chose Satan due to his charm. Satan was condoned in heaven at that time; part of the plan as God rested. Satan is not thrown from Heaven until Revelations, when God was getting ready to go back to work.

Jesus, before he began his ministry, was approached by Satan who among others things offers him all the wealth and power of the kingdom of the Earth, if Jesus would bow and serve him. Had he accepted the offer he would have become the Messiah who was expected; rich and powerful and able to subdue the enemies of Israel. But Jesus refuses the offer.

Jesus said, nobody has seen the Father, except the son. This comment goes back to the Sabbath rest. Jesus was also on Sabbath rest; Father and Son both resting. When Jesus refuses the offer of the Messiah Job, he had no choice, since as the son, he too was on Sabbath rest and he could not work as the Messiah. However, this offer violated the pact between Satan and God; political problems appear, since Satan tried to get his son to violate the Sabbath. Jesus would flow with the spirit and wait until God was ready to work. This is described in Revelations as Jesus and the Father both prepare, to set a new cycle of creation in motion; uninstall and reinstall.

 

[metis]

My belief is that the God of the Old Testament was not God the Father, but Satan.

Nonsense. Jesus cites many teachings of God as found in the Tanakh.

 

[Harel13]

That's a rather good question, particularly since I'm unfamiliar with its context.

Here it is:

Gittin 57a:

"[Onkelos] then went and raised Jesus the Nazarene from the grave through necromancy. Onkelos said to him: Who is most important in that world where you are now? Jesus said to him: The Jewish people. Onkelos asked him: Should I then attach myself to them in this world? Jesus said to him: Their welfare you shall seek, their misfortune you shall not seek, for anyone who touches them is regarded as if he were touching the apple of his eye (see Zechariah 2:12). Onkelos said to him: What is the punishment of that man, a euphemism for Jesus himself, in the next world? Jesus said to him: He is punished with boiling excrement. As the Master said: Anyone who mocks the words of the Sages will be sentenced to boiling excrement. And this was his sin, as he mocked the words of the Sages. The Gemara comments: Come and see the difference between the sinners of Israel and the prophets of the nations of the world. As Balaam, who was a prophet, wished Israel harm, whereas Jesus the Nazarene, who was a Jewish sinner, sought their well-being."​

The context is Onkelos bar Kalonikus, nephew of Titus, seeking the advice of three major enemies of the Jewish people on whether he should convert or not. The other two are Bilam and Titus.

Do you start with the presumption -- provisional or otherwise -- that the text is literally true?

Usually yes.

What do you see as the primary being communicated?

That even the enemies of Israel recognize (eventually) the greatness of Israel.