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If Darwin or the FBI had less than 15% of the data for a case

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
No, Christianity is dogma. Evolutionary theory is science. They are radically different.

Actually by definition there are dogmas of Christianity, and not Christianity itself.

You are correct Darwin is a human being, and he is not a dogma. He does not need dog tags nor rabbies vaccinations. The accusation that the science of evolution is dogma does not fit the definition of dogma.
 
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Set Free

Member
Let me see if I can help. Evidence is, as the word implies, anything that is evident. Evidence of what, is the question.

We have a series of fossils of skulls and other bones of creatures intermediate between a chimplike animal and a manlike one. When we radiodate them, the more chimplike, the older they are. That is evident, therefore that is evidence. Of what, though?

We think it's evidence of the evolution of man from an ancestral ape species that bifurcated into two subtribes, panina and hominina, the skulls showing the path from this common ancestor to man. What else could they be? Whatever you suggest cannot be as good an idea as that they are transitional forms in the evolution of man from a quadrupedal ape ancestor.

Maybe you think they're all frauds planted by people or even gods or extraterrestrials. Maybe, but the evolutionary understanding is more reasonable.

Which potential fossils are you referring to?

What is not evidence? As I said, anything detectable is evidence. But evidence of what? Creationists often tell us that the creation itself is evidence of a creator. Disagree. It is evidence that the universe exists in the manner that it does. It's existence doesn't help us decide whether it had an intelligent designer or not. Neither hypothesis is supported over the other by the existence of the universe as we understand it to date. Finding irreducible complexity in biological systems would be evidence for an intelligent designer hypothesis, but the universe without that is not.

When we reduce to initial causes you, I, or anyone else does not know based upon material evidence. What people decide for themselves is irrelevant. Unfortunately, most people do not even decide or think for themselves as is.

Likewise with the Bible. It is evident, therefore evidence. But of what? It's not evidence of a god, nor that any of its contents are accurate. It's evidence that such a book was written. I'd add that because it contains so many internal contradictions, failed prophecies, unkept promises, moral and intellectual errors attributed to a god, and errors in science and history that it is evidence that it cobbled together by a collection of people that didn't know as much as we do today much less as much as a god would, and that they gave personal opinions that often were in error or contradicted other opinions.

I don’t care what the Bible says literally.

Good. Inference is not evidence and shouldn't be confused with it. Inference is what is drawn from evidence by the application of reason to it.

Inference is enough evidence for many. Not me, in many instances. Although I can appreciate anyone’s harmless subjective inferences and beliefs.

Darwin's theory makes no provision for man being made in God's image or of him having a soul, which is in conflict Christian doctrine. One can only pick one or the other without self-contradiction, not both.

Disagree, and irrelevant. I never once mentioned the word god or christian doctrine. One doesn’t have to pick either or one or the other.

True, but irrelevant and unnecessary. Proof is not the standard in science or most other places. Empirical adequacy is. If an idea works, we use it. If it doesn't, we modify or toss it. Evolutionary theory works. It can be used to predict which observations are possible and which are not, and to improve the human condition. Creationism can do neither. So, it's an easy decision.

I try not to involve anthropomorphism with evolution theory and science. People find value and meaning in many areas. If one is evolution theory, wonderful. If not, wonderful.
 

Set Free

Member
=


Demonstrate that that happened if you can rather than merely claiming it.

If you are wrong, you are out of line accusing me of what would amount to bad faith disputation on my part. I have very high standards of debate. Please show if you can that I don't. Please show where I misquoted you, or stand down and admit that you have criticized me and my ethics unjustly. .

Already did. Re-read #162 of yours. I responded with what I actually stated. Somehow it says that “Set Free” said something never stated inserted by you only. “Did you read that, so why did you offer it?”

It’s not a big deal, we are only human. I would appreciate the correction though.
 
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Set Free

Member
I mostly agree with what you have said here. Obviously there are multiple mechanisms by which new gene rise and doubtless many new ways by which genes arise and evolve new functionality will be discovered. The link you quoted refers to the exciting research of de-novo gene formation where non-functional segments of DNA, through mutations, acquires new functionality in protein transcription and hence become a new "gene". What this shows is that

1)Not every gene need evolve from a previous gene. Mutations can spontaneously create new genes that are then fixed by selection. That means that, while venerable gene families with long family history exist, there are new kids on the block too who join the gene population and contribute to the organism. This once for all answers the question of whether the mutations-selection process can create new information in the organism. The answer is an unambiguous yes. Notice what the article says:-


The Odds of Becoming a Gene

Scientists are testing computational approaches to determine how often random DNA sequences can be mutated into functional genes. Victor Luria, a researcher at Harvard, created a model using common estimates of the rates of mutation, recombination (another way of mixing up DNA) and natural selection. After subjecting a stretch of DNA as long as the human genome to mutation and recombination for 100 million generations, some random stretches of DNA evolved into active genes. If he were to add in natural selection, a genome of that size could generate hundreds or even thousands of new genes.

At the Society for Molecular Biology and Evolution conference last month, Albà and collaborators identified hundreds of putative de novo genes in humans and chimps — ten-fold more than previous studies — using powerful new techniques for analyzing RNA. Of the 600 human-specific genes that Albà’s team found, 80 percent are entirely new, having never been identified before....

Evidence suggests that a portion of de novogenes quickly become essential. About 20 percent of new genes in fruit flies appear to be required for survival. And many others show signs of natural selection, evidence that they are doing something useful for the organism.

In humans, at least one de novo gene is active in the brain, leading some scientists to speculate such genes may have helped drive the brain’s evolution. Others are linked to cancer when mutated, suggesting they have an important function in the cell. “The fact that being misregulated can have such devastating consequences implies that the normal function is important or powerful,” said Aoife McLysaght, a geneticist at Trinity College in Dublin who identified the first human de novo genes.





Genes code for proteins which are 100—1000 chain sequence of the 21 amino acid molecules. Each amino acid is coded by 3 letters in the DNA. So if a single mutation occurs flipping one of the letters, this only changes one amino acid in that protein composed of 1000 such units. The activity of a protein depends on its three-dimensional shape, and in most (but not all) cases, alteration of one amino only slightly alters this shape. Such moderate shape change only has moderate effects (positive or negative) on the protein's function. And it is these small (usually) variations in protein activity that are selected for or against in as far as it effects the survival and reproductive fitness of the organism. Thus permanent alterations in DNA usually results in slight alterations in protein activity and it is this activity variation that is selected for or against.


The number of positive mutations that are seen to arise are numerous. Positive mutations are not rare at all, and this also an exciting find made in the last decade. Put an organism in an environment of high stress, and the number of mutations with positive effect skyrocket. The reason is simple. The proteins perform certain functions. If the organism is in an environment where it's well adapted, most proteins are acting at optimized peak performance. But if the environment is stressful, then this implies that the proteins created by the organism's genes are not optimized to this new environment, and hence moderate mutation induced protein structure variations become more likely to improve its functions than decrease it by the logic of probability itself. In fact the frequency of beneficial mutations is so large that the same set of 6-7 mutations optimizing the fitness of yeast emerged in 40 different independently cultured yeast strains over a 1000 generation period, though in different order and at different times for each strain.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130722203041.htm

Paper
Pervasive Genetic Hitchhiking and Clonal Interference in 40 Evolving Yeast Populations




I meant that natural selection aids in preserving and increasing the frequency of the new gene with fitness benefits among the population to which the organism having that new gene belongs. I explained the process (which a light sprinkling of algebra) in the post below. Please also the quoted post for the background. Hopefully it would be clear. :)

What is Evolution?



Yes. Reproductive isolation will cause genetic divergence. The post I wrote was based on the studies that shows how an old gene can create a new gene with a new function without requiring reproductive isolation. There are many well studied mechanism for generating reproductive isolation. I described a particularly fascinating mechanism in the thread below (see the opening post of the thread as well).
How Speciation Happens (yes it does)


Hope these are informative. If you have other questions or concerns about evolutionary biology, please let me know.

I have much to respond to this, will do so later on. Enjoy your day.
 

Set Free

Member
It has already been re-examine, continuously by biologists, for the last 158 years, with each new evidences discovered.

Newer mechanisms were discovered (Mutation, Gene Flow, Genetic Drift, Genetic Hitchhiking) added to the theory of evolution that started with Darwin’s Natural Selection. So they already gone beyond Darwin’s original theory (Natural Selection).

None of them (the alternative mechanisms) replace Natural Selection.

And as other knowledge of biology, eg microbiology, molecular biology, DNA, RNA, etc, and newer technology and techniques became available, a better understanding of biology.



Yes, to a certain extent, which produces subspecies, but where species share common ancestry, and the entire are group together. I am not a biologist, I believe this is known as “clade”.

But no, the variations they (biologists) are talking about in evolution more than just species within the clade; the other variations are at the genus-level and family-level.

Thanks for the feedback. I will respond in more detail later on when time presents itself.
 

Set Free

Member
No, I do not DEMAND that my opinions and judgement be true, but I DO try my absolute best to hold opinions and judgement that ARE true. And by FAR the most effective means human beings have ever come up with to determine the truth about the universe has been the scientific method. This is the exact same scientific method that has helped us determine that the Earth does in fact orbit the sun. It's the exact same scientific method that scientists have been using for the past 150 years to determine the legitimacy of the ToE. An intellectually honest individual can't use this method to determine some truths and then completely ignore it when it comes to others. The reality is that the scientific method has provided FAR more evidence for evolution than it has for the idea that the Earth orbits the sun. All you have to do is actually study the data available in an honest and intellectual manner. Can you do that?

Do you use it to determine some truths and fail to acknowledge its limitations in many other areas? I have no trouble coming to grips that most of history cannot be tested and repeated. Most is anecdotal evidence and inference. I have no troubles coming to grips with anyone giving their subjective inference based on anecdotal evidence that cannot be tested or repeated. Which lead to subjective truths, which I also have no trouble facing.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Do you use it to determine some truths and fail to acknowledge its limitations in many other areas? I have no trouble coming to grips that most of history cannot be tested and repeated. Most is anecdotal evidence and inference. I have no troubles coming to grips with anyone giving their subjective inference based on anecdotal evidence that cannot be tested or repeated. Which lead to subjective truths, which I also have no trouble facing.

How does this apply to the science of evolution? Evolution is a science, and it is not based subjective evidence, anecdotal evidence that cannot be tested nor repeated. nor do the they lead to subjective truths (no truths in science).
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Do you use it to determine some truths and fail to acknowledge its limitations in many other areas? I have no trouble coming to grips that most of history cannot be tested and repeated. Most is anecdotal evidence and inference. I have no troubles coming to grips with anyone giving their subjective inference based on anecdotal evidence that cannot be tested or repeated. Which lead to subjective truths, which I also have no trouble facing.

"Do you use it to determine some truths and fail to acknowledge its limitations in many other areas?"
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Would you please provide an example?

"I have no troubles coming to grips with anyone giving their subjective inference based on anecdotal evidence that cannot be tested or repeated. Which lead to subjective truths, which I also have no trouble facing"
I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'come to grips with'... and also, could you please provide an example of what you mean by this.
 

Set Free

Member
"Do you use it to determine some truths and fail to acknowledge its limitations in many other areas?"
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Would you please provide an example?

"I have no troubles coming to grips with anyone giving their subjective inference based on anecdotal evidence that cannot be tested or repeated. Which lead to subjective truths, which I also have no trouble facing"
I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'come to grips with'... and also, could you please provide an example of what you mean by this.

Per Wikipedia,
Anecdotal evidence, however, does not qualify as scientific evidence, because its nature prevents it from being investigated by the scientific method.

There has never been an observed morph from unicellular to multicellular organisms in present times. There has never been an observed morph from unicellular to multicellular organisms from billions of years ago. Therefore, not currently possible to test, observe, repeat. Does not qualify for most of the scientific method. I can go on and on and on with many examples. Most have achieved the formulated hypothesis step, and cannot go further other than subjective inferences.
What are the contending ideas and beliefs on how and why unicellular organisms morphed into multicellular? Those would be the subjective inferences, always subject to change.

Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a rushed conclusion without considering all of the variables.

Anyone can make subjective inferences and hypothesis all they’d like, but ‘demanding’ and ‘enforcing’ their truth upon others is disingenuous.

“Come to grips with” means I have no desire to rush to conclusions based upon anecdotal evidence and inferences. There is no need to.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Per Wikipedia,
Anecdotal evidence, however, does not qualify as scientific evidence, because its nature prevents it from being investigated by the scientific method.

There has never been an observed morph from unicellular to multicellular organisms in present times. There has never been an observed morph from unicellular to multicellular organisms from billions of years ago. Therefore, not currently possible to test, observe, repeat. Does not qualify for most of the scientific method. I can go on and on and on with many examples. Most have achieved the formulated hypothesis step, and cannot go further other than subjective inferences.
What are the contending ideas and beliefs on how and why unicellular organisms morphed into multicellular? Those would be the subjective inferences, always subject to change.

Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a rushed conclusion without considering all of the variables.

Anyone can make subjective inferences and hypothesis all they’d like, but ‘demanding’ and ‘enforcing’ their truth upon others is disingenuous.

“Come to grips with” means I have no desire to rush to conclusions based upon anecdotal evidence and inferences. There is no need to.

Selective 'Argument from Ignorance,' and not necessarily true, to justify an agenda against evolution.

You are behind the times on evidence.

First reference:

From: https://phys.org/news/2016-04-cell-evolved-multicellular-life.html

Throughout the history of life on Earth, multicellular life evolved from single cells numerous times, but explaining how this happened is one of the major evolutionary puzzles of our time. However, scientists have now completed a study of the complete DNA of one of the most important model organisms, Gonium pectorale, a simple green algae that comprises only 16 cells.

This microscopic organism is helping to fill the evolutionary gap in our understanding. The two year research project was a global collaboration between Kansas State University, Universities of Arizona and Tokyo, and Wits University. It is documented in the prestigious journal Nature Communications.

Pierre Durand, a researcher in the department of Molecular Medicine and Haematology and the Evolutionary Studies Institute at Wits University is one of the project collaborators.

"The evolution from unicellular to multicellular life was a big deal. It changed the way the planet would be forever. From worms to insects, the dinosaurs, grasses, flowering plants, hadedas and humans, you just have to look around and see the extraordinary forms of multicellular existence," says Durand.

"It has been difficult to explain how this occurred because it was not an easy thing to have happened. So questions like 'why did single cells live together in groups at the very beginning of multicellularity when it puts them at a fitness disadvantage?' challenged us for a long time," says Durand. We still don't know most of the answers but this project has certainly filled one of the gaps in our current understanding.



Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2016-04-cell-evolved-multicellular-life.html#jCp
 

Set Free

Member
The link you quoted refers to the exciting research of de-novo gene formation where non-functional segments of DNA, through mutations, acquires new functionality in protein transcription and hence become a new "gene".

Your zealousy for this stuff is neat, and that is good to see in scientists. Not the emotional, egotistical junk.

A hypothesis of my own kind of throws ‘mutations’ under the bus as not being as essential as thought to be. What is commonly referred to as ‘mutations’ is deceptive in my opinion. For one, they are highly improbable, especially consecutively for all positive, and generally destructive. I think that within chromosomes, genes, DNA, and RNA... something else is going on.
I think that the 99% of unknown information in chromosomes as DNA are dormant and locked for instance with human beings. Certain events then trigger and unlock this information, giving rise to changes and what can be called as significant changes. To what magnitude and how diverse, I am inconclusive on. Like “on” switches are turned on. They do no harm to organisms as they are already innate. They just naturally start to change, minus the improbablities and general destruction. I believe that subtle exogenous radiation is one mechanism that subtly unlocks this ‘hidden’ information. I think that this happened to all species as well.

Thus permanent alterations in DNA usually results in slight alterations in protein activity and it is this activity variation that is selected for or against.

Can we call it permanent do you think, if there are such things as ‘reverse mutations?”

The number of positive mutations that are seen to arise are numerous. Positive mutations are not rare at all, and this also an exciting find made in the last decade. Put an organism in an environment of high stress, and the number of mutations with positive effect skyrocket.

This touches base on what I wrote in the first paragraph. I am still skeptical that what actually transpires are ‘mutations.’ Like as if there is another word I’m looking for that can replace ‘mutation.’

Have more to say in other areas of your reply.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Your zealousy for this stuff is neat, and that is good to see in scientists. Not the emotional, egotistical junk.

A hypothesis of my own kind of throws ‘mutations’ under the bus as not being as essential as thought to be. What is commonly referred to as ‘mutations’ is deceptive in my opinion. For one, they are highly improbable, especially consecutively for all positive, and generally destructive. I think that within chromosomes, genes, DNA, and RNA... something else is going on.
I think that the 99% of unknown information in chromosomes as DNA are dormant and locked for instance with human beings. Certain events then trigger and unlock this information, giving rise to changes and what can be called as significant changes. To what magnitude and how diverse, I am inconclusive on. Like “on” switches are turned on. They do no harm to organisms as they are already innate. They just naturally start to change, minus the improbablities and general destruction. I believe that subtle exogenous radiation is one mechanism that subtly unlocks this ‘hidden’ information. I think that this happened to all species as well.



Can we call it permanent do you think, if there are such things as ‘reverse mutations?”



This touches base on what I wrote in the first paragraph. I am still skeptical that what actually transpires are ‘mutations.’ Like as if there is another word I’m looking for that can replace ‘mutation.’

Have more to say in other areas of your reply.

What science educational background qualifications do have to through anything under the bus concerning evolution. So far all I have seen is phony 'arguments from ignorance' as seen in Answers in Genesis, and Discovery Institute.
 

Set Free

Member
Selective 'Argument from Ignorance,' and not necessarily true, to justify an agenda against evolution.

You are behind the times on evidence.

First reference:

From: https://phys.org/news/2016-04-cell-evolved-multicellular-life.html

Throughout the history of life on Earth, multicellular life evolved from single cells numerous times, but explaining how this happened is one of the major evolutionary puzzles of our time. However, scientists have now completed a study of the complete DNA of one of the most important model organisms, Gonium pectorale, a simple green algae that comprises only 16 cells.

This microscopic organism is helping to fill the evolutionary gap in our understanding. The two year research project was a global collaboration between Kansas State University, Universities of Arizona and Tokyo, and Wits University. It is documented in the prestigious journal Nature Communications.

Pierre Durand, a researcher in the department of Molecular Medicine and Haematology and the Evolutionary Studies Institute at Wits University is one of the project collaborators.

"The evolution from unicellular to multicellular life was a big deal. It changed the way the planet would be forever. From worms to insects, the dinosaurs, grasses, flowering plants, hadedas and humans, you just have to look around and see the extraordinary forms of multicellular existence," says Durand.

"It has been difficult to explain how this occurred because it was not an easy thing to have happened. So questions like 'why did single cells live together in groups at the very beginning of multicellularity when it puts them at a fitness disadvantage?' challenged us for a long time," says Durand. We still don't know most of the answers but this project has certainly filled one of the gaps in our current understanding.



Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2016-04-cell-evolved-multicellular-life.html#jCp

You just cannot resist a useless judgement of agenda. Back on ignore.

May be promising.

There have been other studies as well but no unicellular has crossed the threshold to multicellularity where cells divide labor between them.

Does this address unicellular morphing into multicellular where cells divide labor between them. This has never been observed, tested, repeated in present.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Your zealousy for this stuff is neat, and that is good to see in scientists. Not the emotional, egotistical junk.

A hypothesis of my own kind of throws ‘mutations’ under the bus as not being as essential as thought to be. What is commonly referred to as ‘mutations’ is deceptive in my opinion. For one, they are highly improbable, especially consecutively for all positive, and generally destructive. I think that within chromosomes, genes, DNA, and RNA... something else is going on.
I think that the 99% of unknown information in chromosomes as DNA are dormant and locked for instance with human beings. Certain events then trigger and unlock this information, giving rise to changes and what can be called as significant changes. To what magnitude and how diverse, I am inconclusive on. Like “on” switches are turned on. They do no harm to organisms as they are already innate. They just naturally start to change, minus the improbablities and general destruction. I believe that subtle exogenous radiation is one mechanism that subtly unlocks this ‘hidden’ information. I think that this happened to all species as well.



Can we call it permanent do you think, if there are such things as ‘reverse mutations?”



This touches base on what I wrote in the first paragraph. I am still skeptical that what actually transpires are ‘mutations.’ Like as if there is another word I’m looking for that can replace ‘mutation.’

Have more to say in other areas of your reply.
You will have to say more than this for me to understand what precisely you are suggesting and for me to assess if your suggestion if even possible.

Mutations, including beneficial mutations are clearly seen to happen in the lab. There is no reason to be skeptical about what has been directly observed.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You just cannot resist a useless judgement of agenda. Back on ignore.

May be promising.

There have been other studies as well but no unicellular has crossed the threshold to multicellularity where cells divide labor between them.

Does this address unicellular morphing into multicellular where cells divide labor between them. This has never been observed, tested, repeated in present.

Your moving the goal posts without knowing what research is out there concerning this. This answers your original statement that evidence did not exist concerning the link between unicellular to multicellular.

What science educational background qualifications do have to through anything under the bus concerning evolution. So far all I have seen is phony 'arguments from ignorance' as seen in Answers in Genesis, and Discovery Institute.
 
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