• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

If Darwin or the FBI had less than 15% of the data for a case

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Standard? Who? The scientists in the fields involving evolution are constantly re-examining the evidence. I do not believe there are many scientists in the fields that deal with evolution seriously question the science, I am a geologist and in the years I have been looking there are less than 20 world wide, and almost all work with Answers in Genesis and the Discovery Institute.

What is your point?

In Dawins day, when he published Origin of the Species NOT ONE REPUTABLE SCIENTIST agreed with him so.... "you can't count on numbers" as the song goes It may be an irony that people of the Darwinian dogma faith disagree with standing up against a consensus when the consensus is flawed.... ironic huh?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Does evolutionary theory need a rethink?

Did you read that? If so, why did you offer it?

I understand the internal conflicts with evolution theory. I also understand it is easy for many to sit back, avoid, dismiss, downplay, and hide in comfort rather than address. There is no point if anyone doesn’t critique or question.

There is a difference between rethinking the mechanism of evolution and whether it occurs or not. The former is the discussion going on within science by the experts in the field, the latter the objection voiced only by creationists. Within science, the theory of evolution in the main is well established. An ancient ancestral population of single celled marine creatures eventually evolved into the tree of life we see today due to the natural (unguided) selection of certain biological variations in offspring over others.

The scientists don't really care if we agree with them or object to their ideas. The don't care if we "sit back, avoid, dismiss, downplay, and hide in comfort." Our lay criticisms are irrelevant, especially those motivated by a religious (or any other non-scientific) agenda. The agenda of science is to develop useful ideas about physical reality - ideas that help us understand the world better and that have in turn made life longer, healthier, safer (polio and smallpox vaccines), more comfortable (air conditioning, analgesics), more convenient (cars, electric lights), and more interesting (modern telecommunications).

Their track record is so successful and impressive that they have earned my trust that they know what they are doing and what they are talking about. As a result, the contradictory opinions of lay people are meaningless as are the opinions of those like me who accept the scientific consensus. So I no longer judge whether science and its theories are valid. I just try to understand them.

So yes, I will sit back in comfort and learn, and I will avoid, dismiss, and downplay non-scientific sources on science.
 
Last edited:

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
In Dawins day, when he published Origin of the Species NOT ONE REPUTABLE SCIENTIST agreed with him so.... "you can't count on numbers" as the song goes
Where did you get that idea from? The concept that life evolved was already accepted by quite a high percentage of scientists in his day. Though it took a bit longer for natural selection to be fully accepted. It was not until after the Mendel's work was discovered that the concept of genes allowed for an understanding of how traits were passed down that his theory was fully accepted.

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/history_14
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
There is a difference between rethinking the mechanism of evolution and whether it occurs or not. The former is the discussion going on within science by the experts in the field, the latter the objection voiced only by creationists. Within science, the theory of evolution in the main is well established. An ancient ancestral population of single celled marine creatures eventually evolved into the tree of life we see today due to the natural (unguided) selection of certain biological variations in offspring over others.

The scientists don't really care if we agree with them or object to their ideas. The don't care if we "sit back, avoid, dismiss, downplay, and hide in comfort." Our lay criticisms are irrelevant, especially those motivated by a religious (or any other non-scientific) agenda. The agenda of science is to develop useful ideas about physical reality - ideas that help us understand the world better and that have in turn made life longer, healthier, safer (polio and smallpox vaccines), more comfortable (air conditioning, analgesics), more convenient (cars, electric lights), and more interesting (modern telecommunications).

Their track record is so successful and impressive that they have earned my trust that they know what they are doing and what they are talking about. As a result, the contradictory opinions of lay people are meaningless as are the opinions of those like me who accept the scientific consensus. So I no longer judge whether science and its theories are valid. I just try to understand them.

So yes, I will sit back in comfort and learn, and I will avoid, dismiss, and downplay non-scientific sources on science.
No we care, as your tax dollars fund us and keep us (somewhat) free from only doing what businesses wish.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
In Dawins day, when he published Origin of the Species NOT ONE REPUTABLE SCIENTIST agreed with him so.... "you can't count on numbers" as the song goes It may be an irony that people of the Darwinian dogma faith disagree with standing up against a consensus when the consensus is flawed.... ironic huh?
Darwin was a very established scientist who wrote a very well received and widely acclaimed an cited "paper" in the form of "On Origin of Species" with arguments, theory and evidence. I will take notice if anything remotely similar happens with creationism. Royal Society is like Nature of its day, so if a creationist theorist publishes in Nature and gets rave reviews, let me know.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Darwin was a very established scientist who wrote a very well received and widely acclaimed an cited "paper" in the form of "On Origin of Species" with arguments, theory and evidence. I will take notice if anything remotely similar happens with creationism. Royal Society is like Nature of its day, so if a creationist theorist publishes in Nature and gets rave reviews, let me know.

Actually.... the title was 'origins of the species and the preservation of favored races' (English over Irish, Blacks and Chinese.... quite racist) and in his original edition said the NO EMINENT SCIENTIST TAKES HIS POSITION.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Actually.... the title was 'origins of the species and the preservation of favored races' (English over Irish, Blacks and Chinese.... quite racist) and in his original edition said the NO EMINENT SCIENTIST TAKES HIS POSITION.

but you have to wonder

quote
Darwin acknowledged that he would maintain his view of the origin of humans by means of the mindless processes of nature, “even if it were unsupported by other facts or arguments” ( Darwin 1859, p. 91). “Even if”?
unquote
from AIG
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Rather than avoid... present an example or define evidence and an example or definition of non-evidence, according to Subduction Zone. I don’t have the entire community at my disposal, so you will have to speak on behalf of evidence and non-evidence for your community.

Let me see if I can help. Evidence is, as the word implies, anything that is evident. Evidence of what, is the question.

We have a series of fossils of skulls and other bones of creatures intermediate between a chimplike animal and a manlike one. When we radiodate them, the more chimplike, the older they are. That is evident, therefore that is evidence. Of what, though?

We think it's evidence of the evolution of man from an ancestral ape species that bifurcated into two subtribes, panina and hominina, the skulls showing the path from this common ancestor to man. What else could they be? Whatever you suggest cannot be as good an idea as that they are transitional forms in the evolution of man from a quadrupedal ape ancestor.

Maybe you think they're all frauds planted by people or even gods or extraterrestrials. Maybe, but the evolutionary understanding is more reasonable.

What is not evidence? As I said, anything detectable is evidence. But evidence of what? Creationists often tell us that the creation itself is evidence of a creator. Disagree. It is evidence that the universe exists in the manner that it does. It's existence doesn't help us decide whether it had an intelligent designer or not. Neither hypothesis is supported over the other by the existence of the universe as we understand it to date. Finding irreducible complexity in biological systems would be evidence for an intelligent designer hypothesis, but the universe without that is not.

Likewise with the Bible. It is evident, therefore evidence. But of what? It's not evidence of a god, nor that any of its contents are accurate. It's evidence that such a book was written. I'd add that because it contains so many internal contradictions, failed prophecies, unkept promises, moral and intellectual errors attributed to a god, and errors in science and history that it is evidence that it cobbled together by a collection of people that didn't know as much as we do today much less as much as a god would, and that they gave personal opinions that often were in error or contradicted other opinions.

I know what can be tested and repeated, I also know what cannot be tested and repeated. I do not mistake anecdotal/inference from evidence.

Good. Inference is not evidence and shouldn't be confused with it. Inference is what is drawn from evidence by the application of reason to it.

Many creationists believe evolution theory as is.

Darwin's theory makes no provision for man being made in God's image or of him having a soul, which is in conflict Christian doctrine. One can only pick one or the other without self-contradiction, not both.

Neither of us can prove or disprove creationism and/or chance in an adequate manner. No one ever has.

True, but irrelevant and unnecessary. Proof is not the standard in science or most other places. Empirical adequacy is. If an idea works, we use it. If it doesn't, we modify or toss it. Evolutionary theory works. It can be used to predict which observations are possible and which are not, and to improve the human condition. Creationism can do neither. So, it's an easy decision.
 
Last edited:

Altfish

Veteran Member
In Dawins day, when he published Origin of the Species NOT ONE REPUTABLE SCIENTIST agreed with him so.... "you can't count on numbers" as the song goes It may be an irony that people of the Darwinian dogma faith disagree with standing up against a consensus when the consensus is flawed.... ironic huh?
Alfred Russell Wallace
Thomas Henry Huxley

...off the top of my head
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Actually.... the title was 'origins of the species and the preservation of favored races' (English over Irish, Blacks and Chinese.... quite racist) and in his original edition said the NO EMINENT SCIENTIST TAKES HIS POSITION.
No. By races he meant races of animals and plants in the book. Blatant dishonest lies is not helping your cause much.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
In Dawins day, when he published Origin of the Species NOT ONE REPUTABLE SCIENTIST agreed with him so.... "you can't count on numbers" as the song goes It may be an irony that people of the Darwinian dogma faith disagree with standing up against a consensus when the consensus is flawed.... ironic huh?

Scientist that supported and inspired Charles Darwin: Thomas Malthus, Georges Louis Leclerc Comte de Buffon, Alfred Russel Wallace, Erasmus Darwin, James Hutton and Charles Lyell

Many opposed the science of evolution proposed by Charles Darwin at the time, but not all, just like many new theories like the proposal of continental drift in the 1950's. and even Einstein's Theory of Relativity, but that is not the issue here, all these new theories and hypothesis, like the science of evolution were repeatedly challenged and reexamined by 1,000s of scientist over the years and became accepted by far the majority of scientists.

Yes, on the basis of this you 'can count on numbers' when over 150 years of testing and researching has confirmed the theory of evolution.

The fallacy 'argument from popularity' ad ignorantiam' does not apply here, based on the definition, when the overwhelming consensus of scientists support the science of evolution.

See my next post for another response to false accusation of 'arguing from popularity' by Creationists to oppose the consensus of scientist supporting evolution.

The following article in Scientific American effectively and logically deals with the arguments against evolution.

From: 15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense

When Charles Darwin introduced the theory of evolution through natural selection 158 years ago, the scientists of the day argued over it fiercely, but the massing evidence from paleontology, genetics, zoology, molecular biology and other fields gradually established evolution's truth beyond reasonable doubt. Today that battle has been won everywhere—except in the public imagination.

Embarrassingly, in the 21st century, in the most scientifically advanced nation the world has ever known, creationists can still persuade politicians, judges and ordinary citizens that evolution is a flawed, poorly supported fantasy. They lobby for creationist ideas such as “intelligent design” to be taught as alternatives to evolution in science classrooms. When this article first went to press in 2002, the Ohio Board of Education was debating whether to mandate such a change. Prominent antievolutionists of the day, such as Philip E. Johnson, a law professor at the University of California, Berkeley, and author of Darwin on Trial, admitted that they intended for intelligent-design theory to serve as a “wedge” for reopening science classrooms to discussions of God.
 
Last edited:

Set Free

Member
Does evolutionary theory need a rethink?

I understand the internal conflicts with evolution theory. I also understand it is easy for many to sit back, avoid, dismiss, downplay, and hide in comfort rather than address. There is no point if anyone doesn’t critique or question.

First, I hope you decide to modify your post as you’ve quoted what I’ve said, and added your own words to it. “Did you read that, so why did you offer it?” That line was never said by me.
Does evolutionary theory need a rethink?

I understand the internal conflicts with evolution theory. I also understand it is easy for many to sit back, avoid, dismiss, downplay, and hide in comfort rather than address. There is no point if anyone doesn’t critique or question.

There is a difference between rethinking the mechanism of evolution and whether it occurs or not. The former is the discussion going on within science by the experts in the field, the latter the objection voiced only by creationists. Within science, the theory of evolution in the main is well established. An ancient ancestral population of single celled marine creatures eventually evolved into the tree of life we see today due to the natural (unguided) selection of certain biological variations in offspring over others.

Yes, it’s already been clearly demonstrated by emotional hostility from a few that are now ignored who think that any re-think is a threat. Yet I never stated such.
No, those are not creationists questioning the mainstream standard evolutionary thinking.

The scientists don't really care if we agree with them or object to their ideas. The don't care if we "sit back, avoid, dismiss, downplay, and hide in comfort." Our lay criticisms are irrelevant, especially those motivated by a religious (or any other non-scientific) agenda. The agenda of science is to develop useful ideas about physical reality - ideas that help us understand the world better and that have in turn made life longer, healthier, safer (polio and smallpox vaccines), more comfortable (air conditioning, analgesics), more convenient (cars, electric lights), and more interesting (modern telecommunications).

There are a few groups of scientists in my opinion. The ones from the site, do care about the scientists who sit back, avoid, dismiss, downplay, and hide in comfort.

Their track record is so successful and impressive that they have earned my trust that they know what they are doing and what they are talking about. As a result, the contradictory opinions of lay people are meaningless as are the opinions of those like me who accept the scientific consensus. So I no longer judge whether science and its theories are valid. I just try to understand them.

Those are not lay people and their opinions.

So yes, I will sit back in comfort and learn, and I will avoid, dismiss, and downplay non-scientific sources on science.

That is not a non-scientific source on science.

So I have to ask, if you’re willing to alter my quotes and add your own words to make it appear I said something I did not, why ask if I read the link when clearly you did not?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
another reference concerning the false accusation of 'arguing from popularity' by Creationists to oppose the consensus of scientist supporting evolution. The correct response to Creationists challenging scientists is actually the reverse the argument from ignorance ad absurdum

From: The NESS » Intelligent Design – Response to Behe

A common knee-jerk tactic among pseudoscientists is also the logical fallacy called the “argument from ignorance.” For example, in the 1970’s it was commonly believed that the Egyptian and Central American pyramids were far beyond the engineering skills of the cultures that spawned them. Since construction methods using tools available at the time could not easily explain these impressive structures, it was argued that aliens must have had a hand (or tentacle) in their creation – without any positive evidence for alien involvement. Archaeologists soon figured out, however, how the clever application of simple materials could account for these feats of engineering. Now, except maybe for a small group of fringe believers, there is no doubt that these ancient cultures did indeed build these structures themselves. Behe’s assertion in claim number three is essentially the same: since we have no good theory for the evolution of biological complexity then it must have been designed by some external intelligence – but he and is ID colleagues have no positive evidence, or even a research agenda, to support the notion of a designer. Even worse, their premise – that evolution is inadequate to account for complex life, is false. However, they attempt to create the impression of unsolvable “gaps” in evolutionary theory by demanding scientific proof of every aspect of the evolution of life on earth, down to every last protein, or, they claim, evolution is not “proved” and we must invoke a supernatural designer. This is the argument from ignorance ad absurdum.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
another reference concerning the false accusation of 'arguing from popularity' by Creationists to oppose the consensus of scientist supporting evolution. The correct response to Creationists challenging scientists is actually the reverse the argument from ignorance ad absurdum

From: The NESS » Intelligent Design – Response to Behe

A common knee-jerk tactic among pseudoscientists is also the logical fallacy called the “argument from ignorance.” For example, in the 1970’s it was commonly believed that the Egyptian and Central American pyramids were far beyond the engineering skills of the cultures that spawned them. Since construction methods using tools available at the time could not easily explain these impressive structures, it was argued that aliens must have had a hand (or tentacle) in their creation – without any positive evidence for alien involvement. Archaeologists soon figured out, however, how the clever application of simple materials could account for these feats of engineering. Now, except maybe for a small group of fringe believers, there is no doubt that these ancient cultures did indeed build these structures themselves. Behe’s assertion in claim number three is essentially the same: since we have no good theory for the evolution of biological complexity then it must have been designed by some external intelligence – but he and is ID colleagues have no positive evidence, or even a research agenda, to support the notion of a designer. Even worse, their premise – that evolution is inadequate to account for complex life, is false. However, they attempt to create the impression of unsolvable “gaps” in evolutionary theory by demanding scientific proof of every aspect of the evolution of life on earth, down to every last protein, or, they claim, evolution is not “proved” and we must invoke a supernatural designer. This is the argument from ignorance ad absurdum.

Darwin was happy to challenge the views of ALL the most eminent scientists... but neodarwinists not so much since Darwin is dogma

"Why may it be asked have ALL the most eminent living naturalists and geologists rejected this view of the mutability of the species" Charles Darwin 1859 in the original edition of the Origin of the Species ... and preservation of favored races

see Origin of Species Variorum
 
Last edited:

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Do you demand that your opinions and judgements be true or do have substance we can actually discuss in an honest and intellectual manner?

No, I do not DEMAND that my opinions and judgement be true, but I DO try my absolute best to hold opinions and judgement that ARE true. And by FAR the most effective means human beings have ever come up with to determine the truth about the universe has been the scientific method. This is the exact same scientific method that has helped us determine that the Earth does in fact orbit the sun. It's the exact same scientific method that scientists have been using for the past 150 years to determine the legitimacy of the ToE. An intellectually honest individual can't use this method to determine some truths and then completely ignore it when it comes to others. The reality is that the scientific method has provided FAR more evidence for evolution than it has for the idea that the Earth orbits the sun. All you have to do is actually study the data available in an honest and intellectual manner. Can you do that?
 
Last edited:

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
OK for example.... what small set of changes each propelled by an advantage let to caterpillar butterfly metamorphosis or is you prefer what led to animal symbiosis which requires a paresisposition to behaviors on both sides?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Darwin was happy to challenge the views of ALL the most eminent scientists... but neodarwinists not so much since Darwin is dogma.

"Why may it be asked have ALL the most eminent living naturalists and geologists rejected this view of the mutability of the species" Charles Darwin 1859 in the original edition of the Origin of the Species ... and preservation of favored races

Scientist over the millennia have been willing to challenge and reexamine ALL the theories and hypothesis of science including evolution. It is the way of scientific investigation through Methodological Naturalism.

First, misuse of the word dogma, check your definition, and question your objectivity concerning science. The knowledge of evolution changed over time, and there is no such thing as neo-Darwinism as far as science is concerned. It is a bogus word.

Second not ALL the contemporary eminent(?) scientists rejected Darwin's theory;

Scientist that supported and inspired Charles Darwin: Thomas Malthus, Georges Louis Leclerc Comte de Buffon, Alfred Russel Wallace, Erasmus Darwin, James Hutton and Charles Lyell


In reality all did not reject Darwin. I already gave references where new theories and hypothesis were not initially accepted like the hypothesis for Continental Drift, but over the past 150 plus years a vast amount of evidence and research by thousands of scientists have documented, and confirmed the sound foundation of evolution.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
=
you’re willing to alter my quotes and add your own words to make it appear I said something I did not,

Demonstrate that that happened if you can rather than merely claiming it.

If you are wrong, you are out of line accusing me of what would amount to bad faith disputation on my part. I have very high standards of debate. Please show if you can that I don't. Please show where I misquoted you, or stand down and admit that you have criticized me and my ethics unjustly. .
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
OK for example.... what small set of changes each propelled by an advantage let to caterpillar butterfly metamorphosis or is you prefer what led to animal symbiosis which requires a paresisposition to behaviors on both sides?

Darwin's theory doesn't try to answer such questions. It says that such changes occurred, not what they were.

If you want too start learning science, enroll in a university or begin doing research on the Internet. If your interest in the matter were sincere and more than an hour old, you'd have already found whatever answers were available.

If you have a point, make it explicitly. Why would this matter?
 
Top