If Evolution Were True

[sandy whitelinger]

O.K., doesn't care about common courtesy or the opinions of others. Good to know. Not being Christian, I will extend courtesy to you nonetheless.

You see, you too are proving my point about people and their pre-conceptions. You must have the definitive view of how Christians and non-Christians should behave. Now can we get back to the topic and leave the cheap psychoanalysis to Dr. Laura?

 

[DarkMaster24]

Evolution doesn't attempt to explain about how life got here. To simplify it, Evolution just addresses how life changes over time.

 

[Halcyon]

I also believe that scientists are arrogant enough to deny that they take many things on faith.

I think you confuse faith and reason here.

It is perfectly acceptable for me to believe that the monotremes represent a surviving lineage of the transitional species between reptiles and mammals, and for that belief to be based on reason alone, not faith. I can't watch the evolution of the platypus in real-time and know for absolute 100% certain, but genetic and paleontological evidence back up the logical reasoning that forms the basis of my belief.

Such a belief is a world away from believing a divine intelligence created the monotremes as is, something that has no supportive evidence and in fact runs contrary to all available evidence, and therefore must be based on faith, it has no alternative.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Sandy, you forgot--we are all assuming that God created everything. That's not the issue. What we're talking about is HOW He created it--by evolution, or some other way. How do you think God created the different species, magic poofing?

I believe the Bible says He spoke them into existance.

So apparently you reject science in general, I gather. What I mean is, science has established that the earth is approximately 4.56 billion years old, but that's not good enough for you? And around 3.5 billion years for life to have evolved. And what you're saying is that isn't enough time for the diversity of life to have evolved? Could you share your math on that, why that wouldn't be enough time? Because the Biologists who have done the calculations are pretty sure it is.

Wow, that a great leap of assumption on your part. As far as thae math I'll have to get back to you on that. Perhaps in the mean time you can show me yours since you guys offered to educate me on this topic. Remember I'm just the uneducated, narrowminded Biblist. I went clean through the 6th grade. It only took me four times.

Telling us what you don't think is not telling us what you do think. All I'm getting from you is that you think that ToE is wrong, but nothing about what you think happened. If you don't think ToE explains the diversity of life, what's your better explanation?

Why do I have to keep repeating myself for you? God created the panoply of life we see today. And to use your derogatory term, He "poofed" it.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Evolution doesn't attempt to explain about how life got here. To simplify it, Evolution just addresses how life changes over time.

I believe that's been established.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I think you confuse faith and reason here.

It is perfectly acceptable for me to believe that the monotremes represent a surviving lineage of the transitional species between reptiles and mammals, and for that belief to be based on reason alone, not faith. I can't watch the evolution of the platypus in real-time and know for absolute 100% certain, but genetic and paleontological evidence back up the logical reasoning that forms the basis of my belief.

Such a belief is a world away from believing a divine intelligence created the monotremes as is, something that has no supportive evidence and in fact runs contrary to all available evidence, and therefore must be based on faith, it has no alternative.

Ok, educate me on why you believe that It is perfectly acceptable to believe that the monotremes represent a surviving lineage of the transitional species between reptiles and mammals.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Why do I have to keep repeating myself for you? God created the panoply of life we see today. And to use your derogatory term, He "poofed" it.

So why ask questions about evolution if you've already reached a foregone conclusion? It's insincere, disingenuous, and no amount of logic, reason, or evidence is going to sway you from believing your myths and fairy tales. What's your purpose other than showing everyone what an amazingly and incredibly talented, clever, and original debater you are?

 

[Minor-Royal]

Sandy I am talking out of my bounds of knowledge here and expect to get slammed for it but here we go, the Earth has not always been as it is conditions present in the past are not here today, things like temperature, gas ratios in the atmos, salt in the sea etc, has not always been constant, infact travel back 2 billion years and you would suffer, the conditions that lead to this glorious array of life are ever changing, these single cells came into being on an Earth you and I would not recognise.
These extreme changes in the environment combined with bombardment from space over the millions of years have led all creatures from single cell to triceratops to sharks to daffodils to either adapt or die,
Billions of years in such circumstances would it not be a miracle if we did not have this variety.
We would have this variety or nothing atall, everything would not have adapted and died.

I await being jumped upon but in my child with a box of crayons kind of way i know im in the right ball park, if things are not happening in a constant its because the world is not constant, and as the next super volcano errupts you will see what I mean.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I don't have a position on the age of the earth. I haven't studied it in enough detail. I thought I stated my position but I'll give it in more detail. Given the oldest assumed age for the beginning of life I do not think that there has been anywhere near the time needed for the panopoly of life that exists today to have sprung from simple single-celled organisms.

What is your reasoning that 3.5 billion years is not long enough? If that's not enough time, how much time do you think would be needed?

 

[Beaudreaux]

You just proved my point about preconceptions. Also what you are suggesting could be deemed prosyletizing here.

My original goal of coming here was to debate Biblical points of which I am best prepared to do. Otherwise I follow lines which amuse or educate me. This particular one started out as amusement based on a posters assumptions but I am willing to continue because a few people want to educate me about evolution. Presumably more than I can find on Wikipedia.

Coolness! What have you learned so far?

 

[Beaudreaux]

I believe the Bible says He spoke them into existance.

This is what gets me about the evolution/creationism debate. People actually believe this is a BETTER explanation of the diversity of life on earth than an observable, demonstrably true scientific principle that has been confirmed by research and remained totally unchanged for 170 years.

Wow, that a great leap of assumption on your part. As far as thae math I'll have to get back to you on that.

Dude, you're not getting back to us on anything. You have nothing to support your assertion that 3.5 billion years was "not enough" time for the present day variation of life to have evolved.

 

[Autodidact]

I believe the Bible says He spoke them into existance.

That would be magic poofing then. But I'm confused, because you said that you agreed that new species arise from existing ones via evolution. Now you're saying God spoke them into existence. Which is it?

Wow, that a great leap of assumption on your part. As far as thae math I'll have to get back to you on that.

Wow, that's odd. You're convinced the math doesn't work; but you haven't done the math, or read any of the many published papers that have, and assume that the scientists who did them are wrong, without ever reading their work. That's weird.

Perhaps in the mean time you can show me yours since you guys offered to educate me on this topic. Remember I'm just the uneducated, narrowminded Biblist. I went clean through the 6th grade. It only took me four times.

I'll work on that for you, if you do the same.

Why do I have to keep repeating myself for you? God created the panoply of life we see today. And to use your derogatory term, He "poofed" it.

Because you're contradicting yourself, which is confusing. Could you be more specific? Are you saying that around 10,000 years ago God poofed two of each species into existence, and no new species have arisen since then? Because earlier I thought you agree that new species do evolve. Or are you saying that God poofed the genuses? I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're saying at all. And why do I have to keep repeating myself? We're all agreeing, for the purpose of this thread, that God created the panoply of life we see today. The only question is HOW he did so. I say by evolution. You say by magic poofing, right? Or not? As I say, it's not clear.

 

[Autodidact]

So why ask questions about evolution if you've already reached a foregone conclusion? It's insincere, disingenuous, and no amount of logic, reason, or evidence is going to sway you from believing your myths and fairy tales. What's your purpose other than showing everyone what an amazingly and incredibly talented, clever, and original debater you are?

I disagree. It's a debate forum. I have my opinions about things, but am still open to discussing them.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I disagree. It's a debate forum. I have my opinions about things, but am still open to discussing them.

Right, but you actually address every point in every post directed at you. You're not necessarily going to change your mind, but you are actually into discussing the subject in an honest and sincere fashion.

 

[Autodidact]

True, but then sandy has told us that he does not value courtesy or care what others think of him. I do.

 

[Autodidact]

O.K., re: math, here's some books:

Evolutionary Dynamics.
Mathematics of Evolution and Phylogeny
Reconstructing Evolution

 

[darkendless]

I disagree. It's a debate forum. I have my opinions about things, but am still open to discussing them.

If a debate was opened on something like Fourier Synthesis would you apply fairytale theories to such mathematics as well?

I don't mind debating, but it is very difficult to debate when people refuse to accept anything said, which seems to happen a lot when debating evolution.

 

[Sententia]

If a debate was opened on something like Fourier Synthesis would you apply fairytale theories to such mathematics as well?

I don't mind debating, but it is very difficult to debate when people refuse to accept anything said, which seems to happen a lot when debating evolution.

The notion that there is a debate is probably what misleads them.

Some people think its like a chocolate vrs vanilla argument. I think penn and teller did a skit where they got 100s of people to sign a petition to ban water. Its like that. They're fighting to ban water because they really don't know or possibly can't know.

For those just tuning in... Creationism Vrs Evolution are not neccesarilly mutually exclusive but to pander to the former in order to disprove the latter is not silly... its just stupid. (IMHO)

 

[RemnanteK]

For those just tuning in... Creationism Vrs Evolution are not neccesarilly mutually exclusive but to pander to the former in order to disprove the latter is not silly... its just stupid. (IMHO)

Yeah, honestly spending the energy to prove someone else is wrong could be better spent making sure you are right.
But in a world of infinite possibilities without infinite time your best judgment will have to do I guess.
I'd rather make friends than enemies, I'll give my opinion if ask I guess. :beach:

 

[Sententia]

Yeah, honestly spending the energy to prove someone else is wrong could be better spent making sure you are right.
But in a world of infinite possibilities without infinite your best judgment will have to do I guess.
I'd rather make friends than enemies, I'll give my opinion if ask I guess. :beach:

I'm not sure I am personally following your argument... Granted I'm a stupid heathen atheist who actively denies the holy spirit but still... Are you arguing that if one believes in creation then the theory of creation all by itself disproves evolution? (In contradiction to most rational religious people and even crazy ones like the pope...)

Or are you agreeing with me? If you take a break from your lemonade mate you can give me your opinion.