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If God created everything why didn't he create it perfect?

Paraprakrti

Custom User
Why would anyone desire that?

Because we are qualitatively similar to the Supreme Enjoyer, God. God enjoys independently and so we have the propensity to try and enjoy independently also. It is these sort of desires that constitute forgetfulness/ignorance of self since in reality we are not independent enjoyers.

There's something to explain because the concept of problems or predicaments existing alongside a perfect eternal god are not logically compatible unless the god desired it.

All God has to do is not desire hindering the will of others. These aren't God's problems or predicaments. So, I don't see what is logically incompatible between a perfect eternal God and the desire of fallible beings existing alongside each other.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
The flaws are seen in the material world as a whole and not just in what you regard as illusion.
And then the question remains unanswered, why isn't this a perfect world?

Hi, Koldo. What would a perfect world look like to you? Can you describe it?

I can only imagine it as a world which you personally claimed to have no faults. If your neighbor claimed that it did have faults, would it still be perfect?

In other words I think the concept of a 'perfect world' is perhaps a confusion, like the ideas of omniscience or omnipotence. The words point to things which can't exist in any exterior sense.

So it seems to me, anyway.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Hi, Koldo. What would a perfect world look like to you? Can you describe it?

I can only imagine it as a world which you personally claimed to have no faults. If your neighbor claimed that it did have faults, would it still be perfect?

In other words I think the concept of a 'perfect world' is perhaps a confusion, like the ideas of omniscience or omnipotence. The words point to things which can't exist in any exterior sense.

So it seems to me, anyway.

The concept of perfect world is certainly complicated.
As i have already said earlier in this thread, i would only be able to know what a perfect world is like exactly if i were omniscient.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
As i have already said earlier in this thread, i would only be able to know what a perfect world is like exactly if i were omniscient.

Good point. Only God can reliably judge whether a world is perfect, I guess.

Which brings Jesus to mind. Over the years, I've heard many Christians claim that "Jesus was perfect," but if I ask them to list the attributes of a perfect person so that I can compare Jesus to their list, they don't answer.

I guess it's just a statement of faith on their part. Jesus was perfect. It's not like other assertions which can be examined and judged for accuracy by human reason.
 
In the begining, God created the universe perfect. He also gives all of his creation free will. When God created the angels in heaven, Lucifer became proud and rebeled. Lucifer wanted to take over the throne of God, he wanted to rule in God's place and have all the power, to dominate the universe. Some theoligians say Lucifer became jealous when God began tocreate humanity, when He started to create Adam. Some think Lucifer feared God would love the new human race more than he loved the angelic race, that he would love Adam more than Lucifer.


Lucifer rebeled against god and took one third of the angels with him when he fell from heaven. He became Satan, the Adversary.

Then, God put Adam in the garden of Eden, and later created his wife Eve from his rib. In the garden of Eden everything was perfect. But there was the tree of knowledge of good and evil, whose fruit Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat. I guess this was a test, I wonder if the tree was created from "the seeds of evil" that Satan created, has something to do with the war in heaven, this was a test for Adam and Eve, they had to chose to follow God, or to fall for temptation of the devil. God told them they would die if they ate the forbidden fruit, but he did not say when. There was also the tree of life in the garden of Eden, God has the tree of life in heaven.

Satan in the form of a serpent, the symbol of evil and deception, dragons serpents, snakes are seen as evil, destructive and deceving in ancient times, he tricked and tempted Eve into eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and Eve's husband was with her, and she got Adam to eat the fruit from the tree too. When the ate the frobidden fruit their eyes were opened. The serpent Satan told them they would become like God, and know good from evil. Adam and Eve did know good from evil, but their innocence was ruined and the world had fallen because of this sin, they had disobeyed God's one commandment.

When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, creation was ruined by sin. God cursed the serpent, cursed the ground, the earth, and made humanity suffer from hard work and toil, from an imperfect natural world that would fight him in his struggle to survive. Women would give birth with great pain and suffering, we would suffer from menstruation, from carrying a heavy baby in the womb for 9 months , and go into labor with great pain, so great and troublesome many women died from childbirth in the past. Women would be under the thumb of men for centuries. Men would fear the death the inevitable that took our loved ones away, Satan had the power of death until the Promise came to pass.
 
So God's perfect creation became imperfect. But there is hope. God promised the "seed of the woman, woman's offspring, would crush the serpent's head, and the serpent would wound his heal."


THis came to pass with Jesus Christ, Son of GOd. WHen Jesus was born at Christmas, all of creation rejoiced because he would set us free from the power of death, the power of Satan. When Jesus Christ died on the cross, the wall of separation sin created between man and gOd came crashing down. Jesus went down to the world of the dead after he died and conquered hell, He raided Hades and freed all the prisoners, defeated Satan and snatched from him the keys to death and Hades. On Easter Sunday morning the angel rolled away the stone from his tomb and Jesus walked out alive and whole.

In my belief, Jesus created a place for us in heaven. This current world will be destroyed as a result of its corruption, decay, sin and evil. God will create a new heaven and a new earth. THis has been his plan all along. TO test our faith by a crucible, trial through fire. We must be like gold refined in the fire. WHen the hard times come in our life, we must depend on the rock of our salvation, Jesus will be there by your side. God has always been there for me, He is my lifeline. I am weak and imperfect, but He strengthens me.
 
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Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Because we are qualitatively similar to the Supreme Enjoyer, God. God enjoys independently and so we have the propensity to try and enjoy independently also. It is these sort of desires that constitute forgetfulness/ignorance of self since in reality we are not independent enjoyers.
How could beings that are qualitatively similar to god fall under delusion to begin with?

All God has to do is not desire hindering the will of others. These aren't God's problems or predicaments. So, I don't see what is logically incompatible between a perfect eternal God and the desire of fallible beings existing alongside each other.
Apparently the initial state was not ideal, if qualitatively similar beings to itself fell into delusion.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
So God's perfect creation became imperfect.
This is a contradiction in terms! Anything perfect cannot, by definition, be improved. A potential improvement would be "unable to become imperfect." Ergo, anything that becomes imperfect wasn't perfect in the first place.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
This is a contradiction in terms! Anything perfect cannot, by definition, be improved. A potential improvement would be "unable to become imperfect." Ergo, anything that becomes imperfect wasn't perfect in the first place.
Except that's only an "improvement" because you say so. :)
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
This is a contradiction in terms! Anything perfect cannot, by definition, be improved. A potential improvement would be "unable to become imperfect." Ergo, anything that becomes imperfect wasn't perfect in the first place.

Unless it was prefect because it could become imperfect. I believe that is the point.
 

Paraprakrti

Custom User
How could beings that are qualitatively similar to god fall under delusion to begin with?

Because, quantitatively, they are not. God is the enjoyer and they are the enjoyed. Naturally, the enjoyed also enjoys in reciprocation with the enjoyer. Hence, the propensity and the capacity to run amok with that enjoying nature is there in the living entity. The difference is that when God "runs amok" there is no inherent contradiction since God is independent of anyone and anything. On the other hand, when we run amok, that entails the illusion of being independent of God.

Apparently the initial state was not ideal, if qualitatively similar beings to itself fell into delusion.

That capacity to fall exemplifies the extent of free will. If the initial state wasn't ideal, then the capacity to come into this world wouldn't exist. It is said that one, upon returning to the spiritual platform, never again falls into the material illusion. It does not say that one is incapable of falling; It just says that one does not. Perhaps, then, we can surmise that the ideal state is eventually realized as ideal by the fallen souls.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Because, quantitatively, they are not. God is the enjoyer and they are the enjoyed. Naturally, the enjoyed also enjoys in reciprocation with the enjoyer. Hence, the propensity and the capacity to run amok with that enjoying nature is there in the living entity. The difference is that when God "runs amok" there is no inherent contradiction since God is independent of anyone and anything. On the other hand, when we run amok, that entails the illusion of being independent of God.

Quantitatively = Of or relating to number or quantity.

How would the quantity have any impact upon this situation?
It doesn't make sense. :sarcastic

If the initial state wasn't ideal, then the capacity to come into this world wouldn't exist.

Why? How did you come to this conclusion?
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
How would the quantity have any impact upon this situation?
It's less a matter of how many, and more a matter of how many others.

For us, there are "others" (like the people on Lost). When we are "one" it is one among many. For this image of God, though, there is no "other." There is nothing that isn't "God".
 

lilmama1991

Member
God did create everything basically perfect in the beginning adam and eve was until they sinned and now we're all imperfect
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
If life had a designer, and the designer was perfect, why isn't all life perfect?
Perfect for what? If God was the designer, maybe His creation was perfect for what He had in mind. When you design and create a universe, do it differently.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
God did create everything basically perfect in the beginning adam and eve was until they sinned and now we're all imperfect

"basically perfect" :facepalm:
the non committal stance i see.
it either was or wasn't...
if you take the creation story as literal meaning that it was adams fault...it's not so perfect...
iow, it wasn't.
but if sin was a part of the scheme of things then yes it was perfect

perfect:
Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind.
 
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