InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
In our view, it is perfect for the purpose that it is created for, which is a temporary place for people to develop their spirituality and be prepared for the life to come.
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If God created everything why didn't he create it perfect?
- Thread starter FDRC2014
- Start date
In our view, it is perfect for the purpose that it is created for, which is a temporary place for people to develop their spirituality and be prepared for the life to come.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
You're presupposing that this creator intervenes or cares though.
Hell, this creator could even enjoy watching humans fight over nothing - or it could have long since began focusing on something else.
Would a God who doesn't intervene, know, or care about our current stare of existence be imperfect?
**** happens, though, that's part of life, which is transient and sucks. Blaming it on a creator, though, just doesn't seem to really make sense as an argument to me, even though I don't accept any creation by any intelligence--Divine or not. I don't even get what this whole "God is imperfect" or "God is perfect" argument even is about, though. Is "Perfect" here necessarily "omnibenevolent and omnipotent"?
Maybe I'm not looking at this from an Abrahamic or creationist perspective, though.
It would depend on what one believes.
It would make sense to attribute responsibility to where responsibility is due, if one were a theist.
It would not make sense for, say, an atheist to blame a creator for her problems. She can blame it on herself, or those around her, or just bad fortune, but if she blames it on a creator, she's a theist. She can, however, point out the philosophical problems with contradictory statements or imperfect explanations.
I'd argue that omnipotence would be necessary for perfection in a god. If it has desires that it cannot actualize, I don't see why it should be called perfect. Or if it is some sort of pervading consciousness that has no goals or care towards anything, I don't really see why it would be called perfect. Omnibenevolence probably would not be necessary, but one would wonder why a consciousness that supposedly exceeds human virtue would lack benevolence and goodwill towards all life.
I'm looking at it in whatever way people I'm discussing it with view it, whether it's monotheistic or panentheistic or something else.
Gloone
Well-Known Member
I will take a stab at this and say it is because God is diverse, and diversity is present throughout the entire universe.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Why is that?
What form of "omnipotence"? Logical or illogical omnipotence?
Omnibenevolence wouldn't be possible if it had no care towards anything, of course.
Due to sovereignty.
Let's say I'm a theist, and I am a mother to a child who dies of cancer at a very young age after a lot of suffering.
Now if I'm a monotheist, and someone asks me if I think god is perfect, on what basis would I say that it is?
If I'm a panentheist, and someone asks me if this is the best world I can conceive of, on what basis would I say that it is?
Logical.
Illogical omnipotence is self-refuting and renders all discussion meaningless.
The part of the post you quoted here is a sentence followed by an incomplete part of the next sentence. They're separate statements, so isolating a sentence and a half, and then commenting on it with a smiley doesn't really do it justice. I'll elaborate:Omnibenevolence wouldn't be possible if it had no care towards anything, of course.
The first part had to do with omnipotence. I answered it in two ways. If a god wants to do something, but cannot, then perfect isn't really an appropriate label. If, on the other hand, god is some conscious force with no direction or purpose or care, then "omnipotence" isn't really an applicable term, but perfection isn't really present.
The second part had to do with omnibenevolence. I pointed out that it wouldn't really be necessary, but if it lacked it, then questions as to why would be legitimate.
lunamoth
Will to love
That's an interesting statement.
straightway
New Member
hi, nice question ,I will be back to participate in this discussion.
But not now because it's bed time J
But not now because it's bed time J
Gloone
Well-Known Member
Seems kind of naive to me.
Maybe it is perfect, but we just don't understand what perfect is, for our whole life has been perfect.
Wombat
Active Member
Yup....and if you eliminate one laver of perceived imperfections/evils and are born into a world devoid of them then what you know and what you experience is the next layer of imperfections/evils......and so it goes...
Doesnt take long before the biggest imperfections/evils one encounters are the paper cut, she doesnt love me and the boss said No..........there aint no end to the problem of imperfection/evil.......unless and until you can conceptualise/describe a perfect world........and if there is two of us in it Im bored already with the absence of anything to do, achieve or overcome.....and your disagreement only enhances and underlines my sense of imperfection.
EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Nah . . . you've got it backwards, first off it was Lucifer that was "kicked" out of Heaven and according to the myth, it was because He (Lucifer) presented the Truth to Adam & Eve with the Tree of Knowledge.
The reason behind the Fall is often described as being hubris, man's search for knowledge and forces that originally were not meant for him to acquire. Leading to a second birth, a spiritual rebirth as a god/creator.
Lucifer, the original Serpent, represents the divine force of creation that is able to carry out the idea of creation.
Lucifer sinks down to man's level and awakens the power of creation and the sexual energy in man (Kundalini). Thus, man can reach the knowledge which was previously only accessible to this jealous and violent god.
It is this God that commanded Adam not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, which could open his eyes to the Truth.
God threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that humankind might be occupied with worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the Holy Spirit / Higher-Self / HGA.
sniper762
Well-Known Member
Revelation 12:7-12, "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."
sniper762
Well-Known Member
Best Answer - Chosen by Asker
We have always existed.
In the time before our earth life, we lived in heaven. In the Bible we are called "stars" or "angels" and that time is called "the morning" meaning the early time before earth.
God was the most intelligent of us all and was God.
His plan was for us to become like him and in order to do it we would have to come to earth and obtain a physical body and to have our faithfulness and obedience tested.
Before we were born to the physical world, we knew God and we did not rely on faith because we saw for ourselves.
Satan was an individual like us. He was once good. Isaiah calls him "lucifer" which means "light bringer".
Satan became the "prince of darkness" when he rebelled.
God's plan was for us to have free agency and choose for ourselves to obey and love him. He knew that we would not be perfect and he chose Jesus Christ to be a Savior to us.
Jesus is called "the bright and morning star" because he existed in the time before earth and was a very intelligent chosen one.
Satan is also a "son of the morning" and he is the "star" that fell from heaven...or fell from the way (plan) of God.
Earth life was part of God's plan even though some of the souls would of their own free will chose to remain separated from God.
Satan had a plan of his own. He wanted to force men to obey while on the earth. A dictatorship if you will. He promised that not a soul would be lost with his plan. He gathered support.
The war in heaven was a war of words and ideas.
Because Satan and his followers rebelled, they did not gain bodies.
Because we are here and have a body, we chose to follow God's plan.
Many people here try the same plan as Satan by taking away freedom of worship.
Freedom is of God.
Captivity and force is of the devil.
Source(s):
Mormon doctrine
Bible
We have always existed.
In the time before our earth life, we lived in heaven. In the Bible we are called "stars" or "angels" and that time is called "the morning" meaning the early time before earth.
God was the most intelligent of us all and was God.
His plan was for us to become like him and in order to do it we would have to come to earth and obtain a physical body and to have our faithfulness and obedience tested.
Before we were born to the physical world, we knew God and we did not rely on faith because we saw for ourselves.
Satan was an individual like us. He was once good. Isaiah calls him "lucifer" which means "light bringer".
Satan became the "prince of darkness" when he rebelled.
God's plan was for us to have free agency and choose for ourselves to obey and love him. He knew that we would not be perfect and he chose Jesus Christ to be a Savior to us.
Jesus is called "the bright and morning star" because he existed in the time before earth and was a very intelligent chosen one.
Satan is also a "son of the morning" and he is the "star" that fell from heaven...or fell from the way (plan) of God.
Earth life was part of God's plan even though some of the souls would of their own free will chose to remain separated from God.
Satan had a plan of his own. He wanted to force men to obey while on the earth. A dictatorship if you will. He promised that not a soul would be lost with his plan. He gathered support.
The war in heaven was a war of words and ideas.
Because Satan and his followers rebelled, they did not gain bodies.
Because we are here and have a body, we chose to follow God's plan.
Many people here try the same plan as Satan by taking away freedom of worship.
Freedom is of God.
Captivity and force is of the devil.
Source(s):
Mormon doctrine
Bible
Luminous
non-existential luminary
Interesting story, are you a witness to this first hand or is that hearsay? Do you love to spread wild rumors when they are convinient for you? Why wasn't "Lucifer" created perfect?
chinu
chinu
God has not created, means "He" has not finished creating yet, "He" is still creating, don't we see that trees are still growing up. (Means creating is still going on )
So, firstly let "God" finished creation or creating, Than we'll ask or discuss this topic.
_/\_
Chinu
Sum1sGruj
Active Member
The same could be said with your scientific intrigue.
Perfection never stays perfect unless it is willed and unswayed. Life without free will is incomplete, and therefore imperfect. Such is why Adam and Eve cursed man forever.
My beliefs do not parallel the concept, but it's still very interesting and thought provoking Sniper762. Nice.
Where Is God
Creator
God has not created, means "He" has not finished creating yet, "He" is still creating, don't we see that trees are still growing up. (Means creating is still going on )
So, firstly let "God" finished creation or creating, Than we'll ask or discuss this topic.
_/\_
Chinu
OR God doesn't exist and trees grow because animals and other trees plant seeds in the ground?