If God created everything why didn't he create it perfect?

[FDRC2014]

Thanks everyone who is contributing, this discussion is quite interesting.

I have noticed one of the main topics was over 'why' God would create a perfect human.
I would like to answer a few points posted so far.

Yeah. I subscribe to "atheistic evolution" anyway (despite being a theist ).
But even still, why would a perfect creator's creation require perfection?
What even is meant "perfection" in this case?
...
I don't agree. I don't follow your reasoning.

First, it is required that everything that a perfect being creates, to be perfect.
The reason you do not understand this is there is nothing (well nothing that i know of) that is perfect, therefore it is sort of inconceivable.

The analogy of the artist and his paintings is a good one. A perfect artist would produce a perfect painting. A perfect painting (if ever created) would be liked by all. Though this does have it's flaws.
Another example showing why everything has to be perfect would be (perhaps a religious one), would you say Jesus was still a kind person (or a sin-less) person, if he committed sins (say murdered an innocent). This is why perfection and perfect go together, if you are perfect you seek perfection.

So what is perfect?
Well, no one would complain (as perfectly exemplified, replace science with God):

If you think Science did a perfect job in creating this world, why are you complaining?

Science did not do a perfect job, btw.
Would you say someones cooking was perfect if people complained?
Also, there is a logical, scientific perfection, where there is a logical approach to the design of something.

Regarding the scientific examples,

mysteries are more perfect.

Murder mystery springs to mind, is this perfect in Gods eyes?

Why is our trachea ventral (infront) of our oesophagus, (posing the risk of choking, meaning we have to have an epiglottis).

Where would some of our facial muscles and lingual muscles attach? it helps that bone or addam's apple

We would still have both the trachea and oesophagus, but they would just be flipped around (evolution can't just 'flip' things, God can). Therefore our laryngeal muscles would be adapted.

Why are our retinas inverted (i.e. the rods and cones point the wrong way round).

to protect from radiation and parasites.

I was looking for a scientific paper to back-up your claims, I did'nt find one, but i did find a paper (Kröger RH, Biehlmaier O. 2009) on how an inverted eye does have space saving properties in a small vertebrate eye. As we evolved from 'small vertebrates', this would explain why it was originally beneficial to have a inverted eye.
Why are we susceptible to radiation in the first place - if we are perfect?

Why do biological proteins not always work efficient, e.g. RUBISCO has an oxygenase activity (an evolutionary accident).

too much of something is always bad. compromise compromise.

So God doesn't produce perfect beings because 'you', would prefer people to suffer because 'you' think that it would be too good that way? Seems a desperate argument.

And following from that, why are not all plants the more efficient C4 (or CAM) plants (most are C3).
Why didn't god just make them all the more efficient C4?

compromise. C3 works why waste energy making a good them extra?

God is (apparently) perfect and of infinite energy, why, if you are perfect, create something imperfect to save time. A perfect surgeon would never do a shoddy job just to save his energy, this would make him imperfect.
Erratum CAM plants are only more efficient in arid conditions. Though some plants, such as the ice plant (Mesembryanthemum crystallinum) are facultative and can chose to induce CAM syndrome when water stressed. Why do not all plants do this?

There are many more examples of imperfections in life...
All of the above can be explained by evolution, but why would a designer do this.

mysterious. It's no fun if things are well.
then show one thing in life that is "perfect"
Abstract Art.

So God did it to me mystical. Why on earth would anyone do this, unless they were sick and liked to watch people suffer?

I have another question that i think i posed ealier but no creationist has answered it yet.
Why do we age?
Evolution explains this very well. But why does god make innocent people suffer as they get older. It happens to everyone that doesn't die young.
Why did god give people wrinkles, why do people just not stay looking well until they die?

Have you not seen the latest on the drugs that were "supposed" to cure all? Half of them are causing more harm than good.

I haven't, because it doesn't exist, or if it does, please cite the paper. No one is forcing you to take any drug, if you think you know better then don't take anything.
Each drug is investigated scientifically, and side effects are investigated. Sometimes these can be bad but you have to balance this with the alternative. You are talking irrationally.

I don't really understand the whole god/satin thing (if he God can kill animals for being devious, like in Noah's arc, then why couldn't he have just killed satin?).

This requires unquestionable faith in something with absolutely no subjective evidence. I would prefer to put my faith and believe in Dawkins flying spaghetti monster.
:sorry1:

Thanks again

 

[FDRC2014]

In truth, we are agnostic:
I think, therefore I am: Agnostic...

Is this a 'tea-pot agnostic'?

 

[Luminous]

The same could be said with your scientific intrigue.

Perfection never stays perfect unless it is willed and unswayed. Life without free will is incomplete, and therefore imperfect. Such is why Adam and Eve cursed man forever.
.

it happens that the "wild rumors" that I adhere to are convinient for everybody. I'll remind you it is "seeming" free will. what sort of freewill does a bacteria follow? What power did the mythical creatures have, to curse themselves and all of us?

 

[Luminous]

Is this a 'tea-pot agnostic'?

edit ~ I don't know.

 

[Luminous]

God has not created, means "He" has not finished creating yet, "He" is still creating, don't we see that trees are still growing up. (Means creating is still going on )

So, firstly let "God" finished creation or creating, Than we'll ask or discuss this topic.

Imperfect process of creation does not show evidence of a perfect creator.

Perfection never stays perfect unless it is willed and unswayed. Life without free will is incomplete, and therefore imperfect.

So Satan is perfect? Free-will perfects everything? what an odd believe.

Problem:
1.) When God created eyerything imperfect, he created man imperfect too
2.) When man is imperfect, he has imperfect perception & reasoning
3.) When man has imperfect perception & reasoning, man is not qualified to state if things are perfect or not

man is qualified to state if some things are perfect or not, being as one of your premises is that man is imperfect. man is imperfect, therefore imperfection came from a creator.

Is this a 'tea-pot agnostic'?

having looked up the term. No. I am not an agnostic atheist. But I appreciate all people who confess the truth, even if they adhere to their thoughts and believes from limited data while doing so.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

First, it is required that everything that a perfect being creates, to be perfect.

Yes, I agree with the above. Thus, since God by definition is perfect, His creatures needs to be perfect. But this perfection is relative. That is God Himself is the pure perfection, while everything else is relatively perfect for the purpose that it was created.

"So perfect and comprehensive is His creation that no mind nor heart, however keen or pure, can ever grasp the nature of the most insignificant of His creatures" Baha'u'llah

 

[Luminous]

The premise that a perfect being may create seemingly imperfect things for a perfect reason is perfectly acceptable. Once such a premise is established however, the "perfect reason" opens itself up to scrutiny.

 

[chinu]

Originally Posted by chinu
God has not created, means "He" has not finished creating yet, "He" is still creating, don't we see that trees are still growing up. (Means creating is still going on )

So, firstly let "God" finished creation or creating, Than we'll ask or discuss this topic.


Imperfect process of creation does not show evidence of a perfect creator.

To whom to show ? to one process of creation ???
We ourself, or what we are discussing, Right now!.. is also one process of creation.

How can one "process of creation" search for evidences, because evidences are created before anything is being processed, and the rest which is left afterwards is always the evidence of next coming processes.

i don't know what reply you are going to give now, or what is the next coming process of creation,---- By "Him"

Yes we can only say By "Him"

_/\_
Chinu

 

[Manahel.Fatima]

If GOD makes us all [perfect then how we come to know what is our need, what kind of problems we suffer. If their is continuously same season that is most like by you and your same food is cooked for you you will surely get bored and need change that why GOD makes every other person with some lacking so that to make him/herself perfect He/she start thinking and do some work.

 

[Luminous]

To whom to show ? to one process of creation ???
We ourself, or what we are discussing, Right now!.. is also one process of creation.

How can one "process of creation" search for evidences, because evidences are created before anything is being processed, and the rest which is left afterwards is always the evidence of next coming processes.

i don't know what reply you are going to give now, or what is the next coming process of creation,---- By "Him"

Yes we can only say By "Him"

_/\_
Chinu

awe inspiring.

I was merely making the assumption that my view of perfection was a well-enough discussion point, being as many call their ideas of God "perfect", I and they have our owns ideas of perfection. So I don't think anyone is qualified to judge anything as perfect or imperfect outside of our standards, which makes it meaningless to call God perfect.
I was pointing out that to say that our reality is in the process of becoming perfect, is to say our reality is not currently perfect
The other premise was that only perfect things flow from a perfect being, and since "It" created everything which is imperfect, it must be imperfect as well. the courses of action to take after such established premises would be that in truth everything is perfection, there is a perfect reason for imperfection, or imperfection can flow from perfection. I don't think that believing that It creat an imperfect process for perfection is a very legitimate way to maintain that the ultimate creator is perfect.

 

[Breathe]

First, it is required that everything that a perfect being creates, to be perfect.

Why?

The Japanese aesthetic of wabi-sabi comes to mind: things designed with "flaws" and imperfections.

The analogy of the artist and his paintings is a good one. A perfect artist would produce a perfect painting. A perfect painting (if ever created) would be liked by all. Though this does have it's flaws.

Yeah, because beauty is subjective.

This is why perfection and perfect go together, if you are perfect you seek perfection.

That doesn't work, imo.
If you are perfect, you ARE perfection.
If you aren't perfect, you seek it.

This doesn't mean everything you make has to be perfect, though.


Neither do I see why this hypothetical perfect creator God would have to create things perfect to be even be perfect. It just looks like people deciding what this entity would do.

It appears almost like "Well, if you're a rapper, you HAVE to make only rap songs".

 

[FDRC2014]

That is God Himself is the pure perfection, while everything else is relatively perfect for the purpose that it was created.

Yes, it should be perfect for the purpose that it was creates, yes. But it's not (see original post)!

 

[FDRC2014]

First, it is required that everything that a perfect being creates, to be perfect.

Why?

Explained below..

The analogy of the artist and his paintings is a good one. A perfect artist would produce a perfect painting. A perfect painting (if ever created) would be liked by all. Though this does have it's flaws.

Yeah, because beauty is subjective.

You can apply the analogy to a non-subjective profession. For example, would you consider a structural engineer perfect, if his buildings weren't perfect (i.e. fell down)? Using your logic, you would. Another example would be a 'perfect' doctor that doesn't cure everyone - that is, there is no perfect doctor.
How do you measure perfection then, if not based upon the results that person produces?


This is why perfection and perfect go together, if you are perfect you seek perfection.

That doesn't work, imo.
If you are perfect, you ARE perfection.
If you aren't perfect, you seek it.

True, i agree, if you aren't perfect you seek perfection, if you are perfect, you always achieve perfection (which God doesn't).

This doesn't mean everything you make has to be perfect, though.

As above, so a perfect engineer would still be perfect if his buildings bell down?

Neither do I see why this hypothetical perfect creator God would have to create things perfect to be even be perfect.

Use the example above. But i agree this is all hypothetical - there is no creator.

It appears almost like "Well, if you're a rapper, you HAVE to make only rap songs".

Well if by this you mean, a perfect engineer could produce imperfect sandwiches, and still be perfect. True, but, god is perfect at everything (supposedly).

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes, it should be perfect for the purpose that it was creates, yes. But it's not (see original post)!

Well, similarly we could say, why our body cells eventually die? why they age? why He didn't create it in a way that shall live for ever? But in our view, He created this world as a temporary place, and everything must die. This is how God willed to create it. He didn't want things such as our body cells to be everlasting.

 

[FDRC2014]

Well, similarly we could say, why our body cells eventually die? why they age? why He didn't create it in a way that shall live for ever? But in our view, He created this world as a temporary place, and everything must die. This is how God willed to create it. He didn't want things such as our body cells to be everlasting.

I have asked this question repeatedly, but no creationist can answer me.
Why do we age?
There is a clear scientific understanding on why we age (based on evolution). But if we were created, why would we not just stay looking/feeling young until we just die. Why do we get wrinkles, surely this shows imperfection?

Also, how can you not see that the scientific explanation of ageing (through evolution) is a far more logical reasoning than the creationist approach.

 

[Wombat]

I have asked this question repeatedly, but no creationist can answer me.
Why do we age.

Oh mate......So that we can come to know that the tired frumpy wrinkled old woman we find ourselves married to is even more beautiful than the vibrant silky smooth girl we fell in love with fourty years ago.

There's quite a bit of knowledge/understanding that does not come from scientific theory or the Lab.

 

[Breathe]

First, it is required that everything that a perfect being creates, to be perfect.

Required by whom? By humanity? By you? By the scriptures you were raised with?

See, I just do NOT follow how this supposed logic works, at all. "has to"? Has to? I'd like a reason why, other than "because a perfect being is perfect".

Explained below..

The analogy of the artist and his paintings is a good one. A perfect artist would produce a perfect painting. A perfect painting (if ever created) would be liked by all. Though this does have it's flaws.

You showed me this. Again, wabi-sabi. A perfect painted could make something imperfect by choice, finding aesthetic appeal in that. For all we know, these imperfections could have been designed by this hypothetical creator by choice - flesh eating bacteria and all. Does that really affect its perfection, or is it just bunches of cells complaining about how it shouldn't have?

You can apply the analogy to a non-subjective profession. For example, would you consider a structural engineer perfect, if his buildings weren't perfect (i.e. fell down)? Using your logic, you would. Another example would be a 'perfect' doctor that doesn't cure everyone - that is, there is no perfect doctor.

How do you measure perfection then, if not based upon the results that person produces?

You tell me, you guys are the ones claiming it, I am not. I don't even know what being 'perfect' truly entails.

True, i agree, if you aren't perfect you seek perfection, if you are perfect, you always achieve perfection (which God doesn't).

Whose deity?

Well if by this you mean, a perfect engineer could produce imperfect sandwiches, and still be perfect. True, but, god is perfect at everything (supposedly).

Says who? How can someone be "perfect at everything"? Isn't perfection a state, not a quality?

Even if God (whose? ) was perfect at everything shrug, is this God any less perfect for making things we deem as cruel?

 

[FDRC2014]

Well, similarly we could say, why our body cells eventually die? why they age? why He didn't create it in a way that shall live for ever? But in our view, He created this world as a temporary place, and everything must die. This is how God willed to create it. He didn't want things such as our body cells to be everlasting.

Cells die in our body regularly, except for neurones. A teenager has a completely new set of cells (except neurones and a few others) than at birth, but a teenager doesn't show signs of ageing.

Everything must die, true, but this doesn't explain why they can't just die quickly, without the act of ageing. Explain this.
Evolution can..

If there is a derogatory disease (arthritis, wrinkles, etc.) that occurs after the age at which a woman breeds, then the disease is passed on (hence not affecting the fitness). This is why we age.

 

[FDRC2014]

Oh mate......So that we can come to know that the tired frumpy wrinkled old woman we find ourselves married to is even more beautiful than the vibrant silky smooth girl we fell in love with fourty years ago.

There's quite a bit of knowledge/understanding that does not come from scientific theory or the Lab.

She has arthritis and is suffering, why?

 

[Penumbra]

Why?

The Japanese aesthetic of wabi-sabi comes to mind: things designed with "flaws" and imperfections.

That's fine and all, until wabi-sabi involves sentience and can feel the effects of the imperfection.

If I were to make a purposely imperfect pot, as an artist, in order to relish its imperfection, or to try to make a point about impermanence or something, then I'd be called a respected artist.

If, on the other hand, my "art" consisted of, say, intelligent and conscious robots, and I designed them purposely with imperfection that results in a situation where they suffer (like building some of them without the ability to move, or some of them with a lot of pain, or to make some of them broken in other ways, or to put them in an environment where once per hour, one of them is randomly killed), and called my art "wabi-sabi", people would call me a monster.

Yeah, because beauty is subjective.

That doesn't work, imo.
If you are perfect, you ARE perfection.
If you aren't perfect, you seek it.

This doesn't mean everything you make has to be perfect, though.

Neither do I see why this hypothetical perfect creator God would have to create things perfect to be even be perfect. It just looks like people deciding what this entity would do.

It appears almost like "Well, if you're a rapper, you HAVE to make only rap songs".

A rather descriptive reason would need to be put forth as to why a perfect creator would create a purposely imperfect creation. If I purposely produced products that were lacking in quality, would my supervisors and customers appreciate it?

And if it's trying to teach a lesson, it should be perfectly suited to teaching a lesson, otherwise it's imperfect at that too.