If God created everything why didn't he create it perfect?

[Penumbra]

Really? Because I don't even see how it's relevant.

It's relevant because your explanation does not line up with scientific facts in numerous fields.

Mass extinction events, for example, occurred before humans ever existed on this planet. 99% of species that had lived, were extinct due to numerous reasons. Life was basically the same, except without humans.

It's because of perfection that imperfection can even exist, and vice versa.

What is im/perfection if there is nothing to compare it to? Adam & Eve were neither, and both at the same time. They were the only ones of their kind.
Perfection is an opinion. It was God's opinion of perfection that one has free will. And there is no symmetry between perfection and free will, but rather free will gives you the ability to determine what and what isn't perfect.

The imperfection extends significantly further than just free will.

I don't think I've seen any good explanations for why childhood cancer, brain tumors, or debilitating life-long genetic defects occur in a supposed perfect universe.

 

[FDRC2014]

Wow.
The number of assumptions you have to make....

What assumptions?

 

[FDRC2014]

That's because I fail to get how this works. Maybe I'm wired differently or something, but these ideas of "a perfect creator requiring perfect creation" just don't make sense to me at all.

This is going to keep going around in circles, and I'm becoming bored of arguing for a position I don't hold to learn, so I'm just gonna save myself some time and say I can't be arsed to carry on.



I sincerely hope you weren't calling me a creationist or claiming I subscribe to a concept of God for explaining things.

Ok, thanks for you understanding. By nature we all have different opinions.
Mine is that someone perfect in a certain field, must produce perfect results in that field. Other people definition may vary.

I am also sorry if you thought i was calling you a creationist, i was talking more on a 'anyone reading who is' scale, as oppose to directly at you. I can see why you don't need a deity for the creation of our species (evolution).

 

[angellous_evangellous]

But then again, there are other paradoxes, like if He didn't create us, it would be like killing all mankind.

How can it be like killing mankind if mankind never existed in the first place.

That isn't a paradox, it's just poor thinking.

 

[FDRC2014]

Some people don't understand the idea. A perfect life-form must have free will. Otherwise, it's an abomination. It doesn't take much thought to see that as true.

We were perfect, and WE made ourselves imperfect. Not God.

Defining 'perfect' and digging too far into the conception is a perfect example how literal semantics always leads to contradiction.

ON FREE WILL
i would argue a strong case that says we don't have free will, everything is just a calculation.
Anyway, so you are telling me we were once perfect, i.e. had perfect eyes, a logical assembly, etc. then we metamorphosed into a less perfect self. I.e. adam and eve (the fictional characters which they are) were entirely different from us, until a talking snake convinced them to eat an apple.

The eating of the apple showed free will (which on a scientific level it doesn't).

Anyway.
Does an bacteria have free-will? What about a plant?
What about a biorobot?

Craig Venter created his own genome, does the cell this is introduced into have free will?

You don't even have free will - everything is a logical computation. The universe is logical, logic can explain everything. A computer works on logic.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The universe is logical, logic can explain everything. A computer works on logic.

If it were logical, we'd know everything about the universe.

And computers aren't the universe, and when AI is finally advanced enough, it will be just as illogical as humans. Otherwise, AI would be useless to humans and unable to learn in such a way that can relate to humanity. This would render advanced robotics usless to humanity.

 

[FDRC2014]

If it were logical, we'd know everything about the universe.

And computers aren't the universe, and when AI is finally advanced enough, it will be just as illogical as humans. Otherwise, AI would be useless to humans and unable to learn in such a way that can relate to humanity. This would render advanced robotics usless to humanity.

Everything in the known universe, then.

The human brain is just a mega computer, although somethings may appear illogical, there is always a logical reasoning.
Everything has to be logical for science to work, and everything we know is logical. Everything can be explained by logic.
The unknown aspect of the universe, well this is unknown, but i can hazard a guess (a logical guess), that it is logical.

Also, just because something is logical doesn't mean to say we know the answer. There may be multiple logical hypotheses to the solution, but only one actual process.
There is no illogical scientific hypothesis.
The only example way of showing this simply is through maths. say you are 2, and your problem is 5, then the hypothesis can be 2+3=5, 2+6-3=5, 2X5-5=5, etc. though only one is the actual process.

PS, The universe was logical before humans existed, therefore as we have only just realised that it is, how would we suddenly know everything about it.
We know most things about it, but what we don't is there for science to discover, give it a chance.

 

[hopefulboy]

first we must ask ourselves why we are here in this world and whats the reason of our existence,
we came to world to make it more perfect and achieve the accomplishments. if it was itself ,then why were we here?

 

[FDRC2014]

first we must ask ourselves why we are here in this world and whats the reason of our existence,
we came to world to make it more perfect and achieve the accomplishments. if it was itself ,then why were we here?

We have made an insignificant change to the universe.
The world was not perfect or imperfect before we came.
We are an accident, a complex state of matter.

 

[McBell]

No, it would be evidence of imperfect opinions of perfection. and thus of imperfection within reality.

Oh.

Well, would you be so kind as to present the standard by which we are to judge perfection?

 

[Luminous]

God gets angry and grieves in the Bible. So accordingly, all knowing obviously means that He knows what's going on at all times, having infinite eyes so to speak, and the Godly power to act with infinite hands and all the wisdom to see a little further down the road.
It's not the contradicting semantics some like to imply. If He knew this would happen, He might not of.
But then again, there are other paradoxes, like if He didn't create us, it would be like killing all mankind.

It's got to be tough to be such a benevolent Being..

Oh I didn't think of that. Nice point (though its not a paradox), didn't think you'd give me much. But thank you. Though the informational comment (bolded) would answer a specific question of why a perfect being would create imperfect things at all. perhaps that is the perfect reason I was looking for. It wouldn't be like killing, It'd be more like not allowing to exist, plenty of humans do that, every milisecond they don't mix every sperm and egg possible. Then the question would be: why clump them in time the way It does? That does not establish that humans were created perfect, so the (your version) Bible would be seemingly wrong... and thus imperfect. So not a believable Idol.

 

[Luminous]

Oh.

Well, would you be so kind as to present the standard by which we are to judge perfection?

I still had Willamena's question on my mind.
anyway, personal and communal standards seem fine to me...maybe not definitive, but seemingly as proper as possible. you can truely only judge yourself, the more in tune with reality the better.

 

[Wombat]

Oh.

Well, would you be so kind as to present the standard by which we are to judge perfection?

My frontyard-

Or my backyard-

I have a Landscaper called God....He works very slowly but it's worth the wait for perfection

 

[rusra02]

If life had a designer, and the designer was perfect, why isn't all life perfect?
Why is our trachea ventral (infront) of our oesophagus, (posing the risk of choking, meaning we have to have an epiglottis).
Why are our retinas inverted (i.e. the rods and cones point the wrong way round).

Why do biological proteins not always work efficient, e.g. RUBISCO has an oxygenase activity (an evolutionary accident).
And following from that, why are not all plants the more efficient C4 (or CAM) plants (most are C3).
Why didn't god just make them all the more efficient C4?

There are many more examples of imperfections in life...

All of the above can be explained by evolution, but why would a designer do this.

First, there is need for care before considering the design in living things flawed.
Many such 'flaws' upon close examination are far from being such. For example, the human eye is a masterpiece of engineering that cannot be equaled by man's skills. If we humans cannot reproduce the eye or it's parts, it is a bit cheeky to proclaim it 'flawed'.
The Bible does say that man was perfect before his sin. Sin brought with it a horrendous outcome to the human body, producing imperfection, sickness, and finally death. (Romans 5:12)

 

[FDRC2014]

Oh.

Well, would you be so kind as to present the standard by which we are to judge perfection?

I wasn't originally talking about subjective perfection.
For example I would argue that 'Wombat's back yard is not perfect; in fact far from.
I am talking about objective logical perfection.
There is only one logical perfection, for example a round wheel for a flat surface.
In gods case there are many instances where perfection is not achieved (i.e. a square wheel for a flat surface).

 

[FDRC2014]

First, there is need for care before considering the design in living things flawed.

I misunderstand what you mean by care; i do care?

Many such 'flaws' upon close examination are far from being such. For example, the human eye is a masterpiece of engineering that cannot be equaled by man's skills. If we humans cannot reproduce the eye or it's parts, it is a bit cheeky to proclaim it 'flawed'.

The first point here is very valid, we could find something that now we do not know or understand, the explains the illogical design or the world and universe (& life). But, most of the illogical design aspects can be logically explained using evolution, i.e. you are introducing two presumptions to get back to a logical explanation: the first, there is a designer, the second that he designed it to fit something currently not here.

On the next point. Although our eyes are quite adaptive, they are far from perfect. For each situation the human has designed an eye (i.e. camera) far better than our eye, if that be wide angle, resolution, distance, night vision.
I also ask why god gave everyone different eyesight? For example my eyes are far from what a camera can achieve. I have next to no night vision (i often use my camera to help me see in the dark), and if I don't use glasses i can't resolve anything past about 25cm. This is far from perfect.
There are about 1.2 million nerve fibres in our optic nerve. Most of these are used to link the cones in our foveae up to our brain to give us high acuity (still far from most cameras). And this high acuity area is actually very small, most of what we see is just fuzz (i.e. around the foveae), used for night vision.

The Bible does say that man was perfect before his sin. Sin brought with it a horrendous outcome to the human body, producing imperfection, sickness, and finally death. (Romans 5:12)

As i asked before, does this mean that before the original sin we were perfect, i.e. had different morphology (perfect). Then when the talking snake convinced them to eat the apple we metamorphosed into our imperfect selves.
Anyone who understands evolution would see that this was not the case.

 

[Wombat]

For example I would argue that 'Wombat's back yard is not perfect; in fact far from.).

Ha!......That's just because you can't see the BBQ and the beer fridge

I am talking about objective logical perfection.
There is only one logical perfection, for example a round wheel for a flat surface.

What? A wheel is only even less than perfect 'usefull' as a means of transporting/moving something across your "flat surface"....closer to perfect would be anti grav hovercraft and closer still teleportation and closer still thinking 'there' and being 'there'......and I lay a thousand bucks that >even with< every mode of conveyance across a flat surface mentioned thus far.......someone is going to hold that it is "objective logical perfection" to ride a horse.

In gods case there are many instances where perfection is not achieved (i.e. a square wheel for a flat surface).

Let me guess...the equivalent of Gods "square wheel for a flat surface" is the fact that bums are lower than noses and hot air rises?

 

[FDRC2014]

Ha!......That's just because you can't see the BBQ and the beer fridge

Haha

What? A wheel is only even less than perfect 'usefull' as a means of transporting/moving something across your "flat surface"....closer to perfect would be anti grav hovercraft and closer still teleportation and closer still thinking 'there' and being 'there'......and I lay a thousand bucks that >even with< every mode of conveyance across a flat surface mentioned thus far.......someone is going to hold that it is "objective logical perfection" to ride a horse.

I wasn't talking about the exact mode of transport from a to b, but the shape of the wheel.
You could apply this logic to either or, for example the human trachea and oesophagus configuration. It is illogic.

Let me guess...the equivalent of Gods "square wheel for a flat surface" is the fact that bums are lower than noses and hot air rises?

This is a good question, evolution explains it, but why did god design us this way? Why did he even design us the way we are?

 

[Wombat]

I wasn't talking about the exact mode of transport from a to b, but the shape of the wheel.

Ah huh...but you cannot consider/determine the usefulness/quality of the design without considering function ("Form follows function" Bauhaus) nor without considering alternatives.


You could apply this logic to either or, for example the human trachea and oesophagus configuration. It is illogic.

No...because I happen to have a trachea and oesophagus and I know from experience they do not fail to perform their function anything like a square wheel.

I will leave it to Christian appologists to explore the alternatives-
Bad Designs in Biology? - Why the "Best" Examples Are Bad


This is a good question, evolution explains it, but why did god design us this way?

I do not presume to seperate God from the process of evolution....why would I/should I?

Why did he even design us the way we are?

Because we are the perfect ever evolving, ever changing, learning, growing, experiencing vehicles...and working out how we got to be the way we are along with how all other animals/things got to be the way they are is the most perfect, fun, engaging and exciting game in town!:shout It's a hoot....I love it...it's perfect!

 

[FDRC2014]

Ah huh...but you cannot consider/determine the usefulness/quality of the design without considering function ("Form follows function" Bauhaus) nor without considering alternatives.

The function of a wheel is to roll smoothly.
Mathematically a round wheel is the perfect shape for a flat surface.

You could apply this logic to either or, for example the human trachea and oesophagus configuration. It is illogic.

No...because I happen to have a trachea and oesophagus and I know from experience they do not fail to perform their function anything like a square wheel.

I will leave it to Christian appologists to explore the alternatives-
Bad Designs in Biology? - Why the "Best" Examples Are Bad

This article doesn't consider the logical design which i suggested.
I don't suggest having two separate tubes, just flip the current tubes around.

This is a good question, evolution explains it, but why did god design us this way?

I do not presume to seperate God from the process of evolution....why would I/should I?

Why did he even design us the way we are?

Because we are the perfect ever evolving, ever changing, learning, growing, experiencing vehicles...and working out how we got to be the way we are along with how all other animals/things got to be the way they are is the most perfect, fun, engaging and exciting game in town!:shout It's a hoot....I love it...it's perfect!

Well if you believe in evolution, then you are not a creationist (not that i was suggesting you were). But this argument is aimed at creationists.