If God existed how could it be proven?

[CG Didymus]

God used that system because it was the "best system." God has to know the best system because God is all-knowing.

Of course, it is the best system... the best system to make people not believe he exists... Brilliant. Hmmm?

 

[Trailblazer]

So what happened? Not enough people supplicated God, so he let scientists discover nuclear bombs? So now that we have them is there still an urgency for world peace? For some reason I think God is okay with letting people destroy themselves. At least he must be since he allowed it.

God does not necessarily like to see happen everything that He allows to happen but man has free will to chose so things happen that God does not like. Baha'u'llalh explained what will need to happen before the world will see world peace.

“The One true God beareth Me witness, and His creatures will testify, that not for a moment did I allow Myself to be hidden from the eyes of men, nor did I consent to shield My person from their injury. Before the face of all men I have arisen, and bidden them fulfil My pleasure. My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established.This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course, it is the best system... the best system to make people not believe he exists... Brilliant. Hmmm?

No, it is a good system to make people believe that God exists.

If God had never used Messengers, hardly anyone would believe in God because the main reason people believe in God is because of one of the religions. Very few people in the world believe in God for some other reason. 84 percent of the world population has a faith and those faiths all have some kind of Founder, what I refer to as a Messenger. So obviously, using Messengers is a good system to make people believe that God exists.

 

[CG Didymus]

An infallible God can never need excuses because He cannot make any mistakes, so I cannot be making excuses for a God that needs no excuses.... And atheists like to think that are so logical.

This is more of a Christian thing... You and I don't believe this story is literally true anyway. But, Adam and Eve were sit up by God to fail. He put a tree in the garden and told them not to eat its fruit. Why tempt them? Why did that tree need to be there? God let a serpent, whom some Christians believe was Satan, trick them into eating the fruit. Why did God let Satan into the garden? Why did he even create Satan in the first place? Ah, the perfect plan... humans would fall. Satan would keep deceiving them. God would give his people laws they couldn't follow. But one day... God would send his only Son to die and be the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world. Then one day... His Son would return and conquer Satan cast all people evil people that didn't accept his son into hell. Great plan. So logical too. If you believe the Bible and the NT as literally as those Christians do.

Oh, and the flood... What was God's excuse, I mean "reason" for drowning everybody? Oh yes, they were evil. But who, supposedly, made them? He made them flawed on purpose. Then is surprised when most of them turned away from him? Oh, and we can't forget stoning people and having his people kill every man, woman and child in Jericho. And then blowing up Sodom and Gomorrah... as if killing those people for being evil was going to stop people from being evil. His laws didn't work. His flood didn't work. Yet he keeps trying to pour out his wrath on people to get them to change their ways.

But then, like I said, you and I don't even believe those stories really happened. But God had people write a book that pretends that they are real. And people have killed each other over that book. What excuse is there for that? You can tell me it's the people's fault, but I think that is just an excuse for the one who, supposedly, made people. Really? This is the best plan he could have come up with?

 

[CG Didymus]

No, it is a good system to make people believe that God exists.

If God had never used Messengers, hardly anyone would believe in God because the main reason people believe in God is because of one of the religions. Very few people in the world believe in God for some other reason. 84 percent of the world population has a faith and those faiths all have some kind of Founder, what I refer to as a Messenger. So obviously, using Messengers is a good system to make people believe that God exists.

Lots of people had Gods. Some of, I do think, weren't real. But someone had to invent those false Gods? I'm thinking it could have been false messengers. Or, actually, I think, and I've said this before, people made up their own concepts of God. Or, do you think... let's say the Egyptian Gods and prophets were real? And then just misunderstood and misinterpreted like all the other religions that Baha'is do believe are true religions? Anyway, good stuff going on in this thread. Good job.

 

[Trailblazer]

But then, like I said, you and I don't even believe those stories really happened. But God had people write a book that pretends that they are real. And people have killed each other over that book. What excuse is there for that? You can tell me it's the people's fault, but I think that is just an excuse for the one who, supposedly, made people. Really? This is the best plan he could have come up with?

God had people write that book? No, people wrote that book and God got the blame for it. How much of that book is divinely inspired we will never know.

 

[Trailblazer]

Lots of people had Gods. Some of, I do think, weren't real. But someone had to invent those false Gods? I'm thinking it could have been false messengers. Or, actually, I think, and I've said this before, people made up their own concepts of God. Or, do you think... let's say the Egyptian Gods and prophets were real? And then just misunderstood and misinterpreted like all the other religions that Baha'is do believe are true religions? Anyway, good stuff going on in this thread. Good job.

Anything that was not revealed by God was invented by man or false messengers. That simplifies things.

 

[CG Didymus]

Like the Hebrew I imagine.
Throw us in the desert and make us rely on the daily mana from heaven until we had no choice but to accept the existence of God. 40 years of daily miracles might do it.

What more proof did they need? God drowned the Egyptian army. He led them through the wilderness as a pillar of smoke and fire. He killed a whole bunch of them with a bunch of snakes. But then, after all the hard headed ones died off, God let them enter into the Promised Land where he let them kill the people living there, so they could set up their own cities and take over the land.... And then God lets neighboring people kill some of them or has them taken away captive for disobeying him. But all's good. He's going to restore them someday.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is true, but that does not explain why humans would invent religions and say they came from God. That makes no sense to me. It also makes no sense that humans could come up with all those scriptures or why they would go to all that trouble. Clearly, these people believed there was a God.

Again, you don't think some of the Gods of the ancient people were false? The Bible even has the real God tell his people to kill other people because they believe in false Gods. Then how about the Greek Gods? Don't you think people invented those myths?

 

[Trailblazer]

Again, you don't think some of the Gods of the ancient people were false? The Bible even has the real God tell his people to kill other people because they believe in false Gods. Then how about the Greek Gods? Don't you think people invented those myths?

Since there is only one true God according to the Bible and Baha'u'llah, that means that all the other so-called gods are false gods.
Yes, I think people invented the Greek Gods.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Deuteronomy 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 73

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

 

[QuestioningMind]

I never suggested that that you invest years of study just to obtain evidence that God exists, but if you want to know you have to invest some time doing some investigation. It varies by person how much they need to investigate in order to believe. Aside from reading what God has revealed through the Messenger the only other way you could know is if you prayed to God for a sign and got one. I know three former atheists who did that and now they are believers, but after that two of them embarked upon a study of the major religions. Without a religion you cannot know what God’s will is for you, so what is the point of believing that God exists?.

Verifiable evidence that God exists? Do you understand what you are asking for? Nobody has EVER had verifiable evidence that God exists, and you expect God to provide you with that? If God had wanted to be verified He would have made Himself verifiable, but obviously that was never His intention.
In other words, you want special treatment, what God has not provided to anyone else, custom-made proof sent special delivery right into your mailbox.

You do not have to prove yourself worthy, all you have to do is something if you want something, rather than doing nothing and expecting to get something for nothing.

God does not need your belief because God has no needs. The only reason to believe in God is for your own benefit.
I am sorry that I did not recall you ever telling me that. What texts were those?

If you do not believe the Bible is divinely inspired then Bible prophecies are not going to be meaningful for you. If you believe that anyone can make the predictions that Baha’u’llah made then that won’t be meaningful either. Those predictions are proof for some people but not for others.

Not only did Baha’u’llah know things He did not learn in any school, He also predicted many things that later came to pass. In this book, which can be read online, is a list of 30 specific things Baha’u’llah predicted that later came to pass: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

I just happened to have one of these predictions in a Word document

The coming dawn of the Atomic Age was writ large in the prophecies of Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'1-Baha.

Nuclear Terror

Prophecy 21: The development of nuclear weapons.

In a Tablet entitled Words of Paradise (written shortly before His passing in 1892), Baha'u'llah noted the rush by Western civilization to develop ever-more-deadly weapons of war. Explaining the urgency of His call for world unity and peace, He declared:

Strange and astonishing things exist in the earth but they are hidden from the minds and the understanding of men. These things are capable of changing the whole atmosphere of the earth and their contamination would prove lethal.141

This reference to 'strange and astonishing things' aptly describes the twin processes of fission and fusion by which we obtain nuclear energy. The reality of such a power was again affirmed in 1911 by 'Abdu'1-Baha:

There is in existence a stupendous force, as yet, happily, undiscovered by man. Let us supplicate God, the Beloved, that this force be not discovered by science until spiritual civilization shall dominate the human mind. In the hands of men of lower material nature, this power would be able to destroy the whole earth.142

'Abdu'1-Baha spoke these portentous words to the Japanese ambassador to Spain, Viscount Arawaka, for whose country the warning carried grave implications.

An ironic coincidence? If so, it was not the only one. In 1920 'Abdu'1-Baha wrote to a group of young students in Tokyo: 'In Japan the divine proclamation will be heard as a formidable explosion .. .'U3 (I am aware of no other explosion metaphor in the Baha'i writings.) A quarter of a century later, the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were vaporized in the first wartime use of atomic bombs. Today the world's nuclear arsenals contain enough firepower not only to destroy humanity many times over but to alter climate and atmosphere so drastically as to render the planet uninhabitable.

The Challenge of Baha'u'llah, pp. 85-86
I understand what you are saying, but I am not suggesting that you to accept that God is real BEFORE you have proven that to yourself, I am only suggesting that you are open to the possibility. I never believed in God before I became a Baha’i. I never gave it any thought at all because I was not raised with a religion or belief in God. I accepted the religion was true before I really believed in God as I do now, based upon what I read about the religion and based upon what the central figures of the Faith wrote. I assumed God existed but only many decades later did I think about it seriously. It was at that time that I read the Writings of Baha’u’llah and came to understand what a Messenger if God was and how He is related to God. All that is in Gleanings and I read that book at least five times starting about seven years ago. After that I knew for certain that God was real but since then I have been on a journey trying to find out what God wants of me and trying to understand why God does what He does. My searching is far from over.

I never suggested that that you invest years of study just to obtain evidence that God exists, but if you want to know you have to invest some time doing some investigation. It varies by person how much they need to investigate in order to believe. Aside from reading what God has revealed through the Messenger the only other way you could know is if you prayed to God for a sign and got one. I know three former atheists who did that and now they are believers, but after that two of them embarked upon a study of the major religions. Without a religion you cannot know what God’s will is for you, so what is the point of believing that God exists?

Well I've been seeking such evidence since I was about 12 or 13 years old and have read literally thousands of pages of texts over the decades that people have claimed were written by messengers from god. Yet I STILL haven't found ANYTHING that comes close to convincing me any of it is true. It was only in the last few years that I even heard about the new and improved messenger that you are promoting, so yes, it seems that you are telling me that this quest requires years of effort. But even after reading what you said were the most convincing passages from this new messenger, I've yet to hear anything that sounds much different from all of the other texts I've read. As for praying, spent over a year pretending like there was some entity listening when I fervently asking for some wat to be 'shown the truth', but again, nothing.


Verifiable evidence that God exists? Do you understand what you are asking for? Nobody has EVER had verifiable evidence that God exists, and you expect God to provide you with that? If God had wanted to be verified He would have made Himself verifiable, but obviously that was never His intention.

Yes, I'm asking the exact same thing that most everyone asks when confronted with a significant claim, where's the verifiable evidence that it's true? Most people do it all the time. Yet about the only time people respond with Do you understand what you are asking for? as if it's a ridiculous request is when it comes to claims about god. You're right, no one has EVER been able to provide verifiable evidence for any god being. But SOMEHOW without any verifiable evidence of this god's existence you're claiming that it's OBVIOUS that this means god doesn't want to be verified. Are you truly incapable of seeing that the only way you could claim such a thing was obvious is if you start off withy the unfounded assumption that this proposed god exists? I can make the same claim, that the fact that no one had EVER been able to provide verifiable evidence for magical pixies means it's OBVIOUS that magical pixies don't want to be verified. It's nothing more than a silly circular argument.

Prophecy 21: The development of nuclear weapons.

That's a PERFECT example of attributing some sort of divine insight to something that is nothing more than an accurate prediction. Like I said about his predicting war in Europe, I'm impressed with his ability to accurately make the prediction, but nothing more. Because he's not the only one who was able to accurately predict that we'd some day develop weapons of mass destruction. There was a general, I forget his name, who fought in the American Civil War. At the conclusion to the war he said that after seeing how quickly weapons technology advanced from the beginning of the war to the end he predicted that within decades humans would discover some means of unleashing an as yet unknown force so powerful that it could potentially destroy the entire world. It had NOTHING to do with god delivering him sort sort of message. The man simply looked around at the rapid advancements in technology, especially when it came to weapons of war, and he made an accurate prediction. It appears that your chosen messenger was very perceptive and in tune with what was happening in the world, but unless you're agenda is to find evidence for some god being, there's absolutely no reason to believe that a god being had anything to do with it.

I understand what you are saying, but I am not suggesting that you to accept that God is real BEFORE you have proven that to yourself, I am only suggesting that you are open to the possibility.

What have a written that makes you think that I'm not open to the possibility? I've been investigating the subject for more than 40 years of my life. In the beginning I read everything I could get my hands on, thinking that just because there was nothing convincing in the last one that surely the next one would provide some stunning insight. I confess, after decades of being disappointed it's impossible for me to approach any new 'suggestion' with the same enthusiasm, but I'm still willing and eager to read whatever a person claims is the best they've got. What I've read from your messenger, though more contemporary than many, has been no more enlightening or convincing than any of the others.

 

[Truthseeker]

Nuclear Terror

Prophecy 21: The development of nuclear weapons.

In a Tablet entitled Words of Paradise (written shortly before His passing in 1892), Baha'u'llah noted the rush by Western civilization to develop ever-more-deadly weapons of war. Explaining the urgency of His call for world unity and peace, He declared:

Strange and astonishing things exist in the earth but they are hidden from the minds and the understanding of men. These things are capable of changing the whole atmosphere of the earth and their contamination would prove lethal.141

This reference to 'strange and astonishing things' aptly describes the twin processes of fission and fusion by which we obtain nuclear energy. The reality of such a power was again affirmed in 1911 by 'Abdu'1-Baha:

There is in existence a stupendous force, as yet, happily, undiscovered by man. Let us supplicate God, the Beloved, that this force be not discovered by science until spiritual civilization shall dominate the human mind. In the hands of men of lower material nature, this power would be able to destroy the whole earth.142

'Abdu'1-Baha spoke these portentous words to the Japanese ambassador to Spain, Viscount Arawaka, for whose country the warning carried grave implications.

An ironic coincidence? If so, it was not the only one. In 1920 'Abdu'1-Baha wrote to a group of young students in Tokyo: 'In Japan the divine proclamation will be heard as a formidable explosion .. .'U3 (I am aware of no other explosion metaphor in the Baha'i writings.) A quarter of a century later, the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were vaporized in the first wartime use of atomic bombs. Today the world's nuclear arsenals contain enough firepower not only to destroy humanity many times over but to alter climate and atmosphere so drastically as to render the planet uninhabitable.

The Challenge of Baha'u'llah, pp. 85-86

Hey, I read that book! I encountered the author on Facebook recently. I don't recall the second ironic coincidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well I've been seeking such evidence since I was about 12 or 13 years old and have read literally thousands of pages of texts over the decades that people have claimed were written by messengers from god. Yet I STILL haven't found ANYTHING that comes close to convincing me any of it is true. It was only in the last few years that I even heard about the new and improved messenger that you are promoting, so yes, it seems that you are telling me that this quest requires years of effort. But even after reading what you said were the most convincing passages from this new messenger, I've yet to hear anything that sounds much different from all of the other texts I've read. As for praying, spent over a year pretending like there was some entity listening when I fervently asking for some wat to be 'shown the truth', but again, nothing.

Did you ever study the major religions such as Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism? What texts did you read and why did you think they were worth your time and effort? What claims did those who wrote them make? Was there any established religion with believers associated with them? If not, these are telltale signs that there was never any true Messenger of God associated with them. The Baha’i Faith is a world religion that is as yet small but highly organized and a close second only to Christianity in its spread across the world. During the first 100 years Baha’i communities had spread to every country and territory in the world. The Baha’i Faith is no fly-by-night religion, it is here to stay. The Writings of Baha’u’llah and the pens he wrote with are even in a British museum: Exhibition of Baha’u’llah’s writings opens at British Museum

The Baha’i Faith is a religion that is gaining prominence in the world. In spite of the fact that it is still fairly small it is recognized by governments all over the world. Governments Recognize Baha’u’llah’s Bicentenary—Globally

Yes, I'm asking the exact same thing that most everyone asks when confronted with a significant claim, where's the verifiable evidence that it's true? Most people do it all the time. Yet about the only time people respond with Do you understand what you are asking for? as if it's a ridiculous request is when it comes to claims about god. You're right, no one has EVER been able to provide verifiable evidence for any god being. But SOMEHOW without any verifiable evidence of this god's existence you're claiming that it's OBVIOUS that this means god doesn't want to be verified.

Didn’t I already say that God does not want to be verified, not in the WAY you want to verify Him, but you can bet your bottom dollar that every Baha’i is certain that God exists. You have no idea how much Baha’is have sacrificed and continue to sacrifice for the Faith, which we refer to as the Cause of God. In order to establish the Faith around the world, thousands of Baha’is gave up the comfort of settled homes and moved into strange countries to tell the people about Baha’u’llah.

Are you truly incapable of seeing that the only way you could claim such a thing was obvious is if you start off with the unfounded assumption that this proposed god exists? I can make the same claim, that the fact that no one had EVER been able to provide verifiable evidence for magical pixies means it's OBVIOUS that magical pixies don't want to be verified. It's nothing more than a silly circular argument.

I did not start off with such an assumption; I had no assumptions at all. I just read all the books that were available at that time and I knew it was the truth, but I was not thinking in terms of God existing, I was just thinking in terms of the religion being true, so y bar was not set as high as yours is. I was just following the yellow brick road to where it led and eventually it led to me verifying that God exists in my own mind.

Prophecy 21: The development of nuclear weapons.

That's a PERFECT example of attributing some sort of divine insight to something that is nothing more than an accurate prediction. Like I said about his predicting war in Europe, I'm impressed with his ability to accurately make the prediction, but nothing more. Because he's not the only one who was able to accurately predict that we'd some day develop weapons of mass destruction. There was a general, I forget his name, who fought in the American Civil War. At the conclusion to the war he said that after seeing how quickly weapons technology advanced from the beginning of the war to the end he predicted that within decades humans would discover some means of unleashing an as yet unknown force so powerful that it could potentially destroy the entire world. It had NOTHING to do with god delivering him sort sort of message. The man simply looked around at the rapid advancements in technology, especially when it came to weapons of war, and he made an accurate prediction. It appears that your chosen messenger was very perceptive and in tune with what was happening in the world, but unless you're agenda is to find evidence for some god being, there's absolutely no reason to believe that a god being had anything to do with it.

I never said that the predictions were evidence that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger if God, they are only evidence that He could see into the future. We are not talking about one prediction, but rather many different kinds of predictions, but He never offered these as proof of who He was or ever suggested we use them for that purpose. Many of them were warnings to the kings and rulers of what would happen if they did not heed his call.

What have a written that makes you think that I'm not open to the possibility? I've been investigating the subject for more than 40 years of my life. In the beginning I read everything I could get my hands on, thinking that just because there was nothing convincing in the last one that surely the next one would provide some stunning insight. I confess, after decades of being disappointed it's impossible for me to approach any new 'suggestion' with the same enthusiasm, but I'm still willing and eager to read whatever a person claims is the best they've got. What I've read from your messenger, though more contemporary than many, has been no more enlightening or convincing than any of the others.

Well, I am sorry of you told me before that you had searched that long and I had forgotten. That gives me an entirely new perspective. Do you know how many Tablets Baha’u’llah wrote? He wrote 15,000 tablets and thousands more were lost to posterity because he ordered His companions to throw them into the Tigris River. The story of what happened is in God Passes By.

Depending upon what you have read before, I don’t think that reading the Writings of Baha’u’llah is the best place to start. I only read a few of His Writings before I became a Baha’i because I was not at a level where I could understand them. I read mostly what His son Abdu’l-Baha wrote, because it was much easier for me to understand. But before I did any of that I read an introduction to the Baha’i Faith in the book entitled Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era. The downloadable version is in the new Baha’i Reference Library: Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era.

Back when I became a Baha’i over 50 years ago there was no internet, all we had were books. Now if you want a brief overview of what the Baha’i Faith is and what it teaches you can go to The Official Website of the Worldwide Bahá’í Community, The Baháʼí Faith - Home

If you read on there you will get an idea of basic Baha’i beliefs and practices, and there is a link to the Baha'i Reference Library on the website.

 

[Truthseeker]

The Baha’i Faith is a religion that is gaining prominence in the world. In spite of the fact that it is still fairly small it is recognized by governments all over the world. Governments Recognize Baha’u’llah’s Bicentenary—Globally

Missed that one. Jimmy Carter commending the Baha'i Faith is no surprise to me, knowing his character and humanitarian accomplishments since he was president.

 

[Trailblazer]

Missed that one. Jimmy Carter commending the Baha'i Faith is no surprise to me, knowing his character and humanitarian accomplishments since he was president.

I have been getting the Baha'iTeachings.org articles every morning for years, so I have quite a collection!
There is no subject that they have not addressed.

 

[Truthseeker]

I have been getting the Baha'iTeachings.org articles every morning for years, so I have quite a collection!
There is no subject that they have not addressed.

I used to get articles every morning, too. But after a while it just seemed to be redundant, saying things I already knew.

 

[Nakosis]

What more proof did they need? God drowned the Egyptian army. He led them through the wilderness as a pillar of smoke and fire. He killed a whole bunch of them with a bunch of snakes. But then, after all the hard headed ones died off, God let them enter into the Promised Land where he let them kill the people living there, so they could set up their own cities and take over the land.... And then God lets neighboring people kill some of them or has them taken away captive for disobeying him. But all's good. He's going to restore them someday.

The problem is, that was then, this is now. As my Grandmother use to say, people can't learn from the mistakes of others.

 

[Muffled]

I believe that would be the Bible, the Qu'ran and the personal experience of people.

 

[Muffled]

I dunno, I don't see Him anywhere.
I think God is easy to miss unless you know where to look.

I believe that is because no-one can see Him. Spiritual things are spiritually perceived.

 

[Muffled]

It cannot be proven. By the parameters you have set, an entity that is undetectable, with no material or physical properties, is by definition, imaginary, not real or existent, not part of reality.

Since the entity is imaginary, you cannot attest to any properties it may have other than imaginary ones.

I believe by that measure then wind is imaginary. That logic doesn't work.