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If God existed, under these conditions, would there be any atheists?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Agree, you can always find the odd one, that wouldn't believe simply because... but if we are talking God convincing people, then there wouldn't be any given the characteristics he have. At least I think so :)
But the premise does not state that God would be convincing people. Read it again. It says that God would know how to get everyone to believe in him and it says God wants everyone to believe in him and it says God would do what would be within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that he exists. It says nothing about God convincing everyone to believe in Him. ;)

If God existed, and God is omnipotent (meaning that he could do anything not logically impossible), and if God is omniscient (meaning he would know how to get everyone to believe in him) and if God wants everyone to believe in him, and if God were to do what would be within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that he exists, would there be any atheists?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Curiously, showing up by itself wouldn't be a good evidence. Just to exemplify why: I am God and I have shown up on Earth. Do you believe I am God now?

Do you get what I am saying?
I sure as hell get it. I mean how would they KNOW it was God?
The bottom like is that there is no way to believe in God without faith.
Sorry atheists.:(

The good news is that once we have faith, we not only believe that God exists, we know. That is why Jesus said:

Matthew 17:20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief;[a] for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.

Matthew 21:21 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.


I already know what the atheists are going to say because I have been around this block a hundred times.....
We believers could be wrong because faith is not proof, but as you and I just agreed upon, even if God showed up on Earth Himself, that would not be proof to everyone, so what gives?

So what if we believers are wrong and God does not exist, what is the worst that can happen to us? We will die and there will be zero, zilch, nada. There will be no heaven as many hoped for, but big deal. I wasn't looking forward to living forever in some strange dimension anyway. It might be all it is cracked up to be, or it might not be. All we can do even if we are a believer is hope for the best. There are no guarantees for anyone except Christians, or so they believe. ;).

But conversely, what if the atheists are wrong and there is a heaven, and a hell. I feel confident that you can do the math, you're a smart guy. :D I'm glad we had this talk.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
How do you reconcile this . . . .

To me, the whole idea of God cleansing the earth of the people who weren't loyal to him sounds like God condemning people that don't do what he tells them. You spent a lot of time saying they're different things, but I just don't see how.

If this is God's earth and his creation, then it is his property, much the same as a Landlord opens up his property for tenants to come in and enjoy living in his clean and well maintained residence. Instead of charging them rent though, he allows them to occupy his property on the condition that they act as the caretakers, maintaining things and keeping the property in good order. Those are the terms and conditions attached to the tenancy agreement.

Now suppose the Landlord on his return after a long absence, finds the property not only damaged and filthy, but the tenants have invited unsavory people to share that property knowing that they were not going to abide by the rules....? They allowed them to do damage and didn't evict them?

What options does the Landlord have? He can evict all the tenants there and then without giving them an opportunity to make things right, or he can allow the original occupants to clean up and repair the property and to tell their dodgy visitors to leave, whereupon he will come back after a reasonable time and make an inspection to see if his rules have been complied with. Which would demonstrate a more reasonable and fair approach to the problem? If you were the original tenants, would you appreciate an opportunity to make it right and retain your residence? Or would you cop the eviction even though you didn't personally do any of the damage?

Now if you did the necessary clean up and repairs, but you allowed the 'visitors' to come back and do the same things as before, then the Landlord, upon inspection, is not going to have a choice, is he?

By allowing us to make choices we are all facing the same inspection. Our relationship with God will ensure that we do not break the rules because we know it would incur his displeasure and result in our own eviction from God's property. We will not join in with what others are doing to this earth and to each other but will try to tell them the consequences of doing so. We will be doing all we can to keep the unsavory characters out of our own lives and not imitating or even condoning their behavior.

You could make the argument that God's condemnation is just, but if you believe he's going to come and mercilessly slaughter everyone that doesn't worship him then you can't say those people are condemning themselves. It's pretty clearly God that's doing all of the genocide, isn't it?

Its not like we have had no warning. Justice is served by warnings and when the warnings are ignored, then there will rightly be consequences.

We have known since the Bible was written that an accounting with our Landlord was coming. He gave control of the world over to the god that our first parents chose, in full knowledge of where it would take us....but we needed to see firsthand what happens when we throw God and his rules away. Do we need more evidence that this world's ruler and his rulership is a total failure?

We have had plenty of time to comply with God's requirements, but at the end of the day, only those who have complied, will be granted citizenship in the new world to come. That citizenship is not in heaven but right here on earth where God put us in the first place. Not a soul in that world will be an atheist, or a worshipper of false gods. So we have a choice as to whom we will worship and God knows the reasons for our choices. If we are missing from that world, it will be because of the choices we have made.

Loyalty to God comes out of love not fear or force, so if we love God, then his rules will never feel like they are unjust or unreasonable. We will be able to comply with the tenancy rules with no hesitation because we agree to them and we uphold them in spite of what others are doing.

That is how I see it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
They mean the same thing here, but if you're going to pretend that they don't, then you're going to be playing this game on your own.
Okay, I will meet you halfway, because I do not want to split hairs.
  • God is omnipotent (meaning that he could do anything not logically impossible),
  • God is omniscient (meaning he would know how to get everyone to believe in him)
  • God wants everyone to believe in him,
  • God did what would be within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that he exists,
So if God did everything within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that he exists, God tried to convince everyone that he exists, but that does not mean God would be successful.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
And aren't even every Guru like that?
No. Neither the Hindu nor the Sikh gurus ever claimed any mission given by God. Jains and Buddhists were atheistic. They were wise people and advised people on basis of their experience. Vedas and Gita are supposed to be words of God, but that is more an acceptance of wisdom contained in them. Gita was written by an unknown author around the beginning of the Christian era. Every verse of Vedas and the Upanishads is traditionally ascribed to different poets. The Vedas were re-written in every age as the language changed. That is the meaning of 'Samhita', as the recensions are known here. So, the Vedas are not the unchangeable words of any God. Krishna is but mythology.
The claim business exists only in Abrahamic/Monotheistic religions. Here if a person makes any such claim of authority from God, then he will be considered a charlatan.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I still maintain that it would take a god
to know a god.
That's true because only God knows God.

“No one else besides Thee hath, at any time, been able to fathom Thy mystery, or befittingly to extol Thy greatness. Unsearchable and high above the praise of men wilt Thou remain for ever. There is none other God but Thee, the Inaccessible, the Omnipotent, the Omniscient, the Holy of Holies.” Gleanings, p. 4
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
God wants everyone to believe in him,
God did what would be within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that he exists. So if God did everything within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that he exists, God tried to convince everyone that he exists, but that does not mean God would be successful.
That differs from what you said earlier in the topic. I quote:
"Indeed, if God made everyone believe in Him that would be a horror. :eek:"

"That is one reason what God does not do what would be within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that He exists."
Earlier you said God does not do all to prove his existence. Now you say that he did everything that he could.

If God's omnipotence extends to only that, then he is hardly a God but a weakling. He tries but cannot prove his existence to all people. He fails and so also his prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis. I am sure, Cthulhu can do better than that.

Basically, Trailblazer, you do not know what you are writing. Go through your posts after removing your Bahai spectacles and see what a funny mess you are.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If this is God's earth and his creation, then it is his property, much the same as a Landlord opens up his property for tenants to come in and enjoy living in his clean and well maintained residence. Instead of charging them rent though, he allows them to occupy his property on the condition that they act as the caretakers, maintaining things and keeping the property in good order. Those are the terms and conditions attached to the tenancy agreement.

Now suppose the Landlord on his return after a long absence, finds the property not only damaged and filthy, but the tenants have invited unsavory people to share that property knowing that they were not going to abide by the rules....? They allowed them to do damage and didn't evict them?

What options does the Landlord have? He can evict all the tenants there and then without giving them an opportunity to make things right, or he can allow the original occupants to clean up and repair the property and to tell their dodgy visitors to leave, whereupon he will come back after a reasonable time and make an inspection to see if his rules have been complied with. Which would demonstrate a more reasonable and fair approach to the problem? If you were the original tenants, would you appreciate an opportunity to make it right and retain your residence? Or would you cop the eviction even though you didn't personally do any of the damage?

Now if you did the necessary clean up and repairs, but you allowed the 'visitors' to come back and do the same things as before, then the Landlord, upon inspection, is not going to have a choice, is he?

By allowing us to make choices we are all facing the same inspection. Our relationship with God will ensure that we do not break the rules because we know it would incur his displeasure and result in our own eviction from God's property. We will not join in with what others are doing to this earth and to each other but will try to tell them the consequences of doing so. We will be doing all we can to keep the unsavory characters out of our own lives and not imitating or even condoning their behavior.

Its not like we have had no warning. Justice is served by warnings and when the warnings are ignored, then there will rightly be consequences.

We have known since the Bible was written that an accounting with our Landlord was coming. He gave control of the world over to the god that our first parents chose, in full knowledge of where it would take us....but we needed to see firsthand what happens when we throw God and his rules away. Do we need more evidence that this world's ruler and his rulership is a total failure?

We have had plenty of time to comply with God's requirements, but at the end of the day, only those who have complied, will be granted citizenship in the new world to come. That citizenship is not in heaven but right here on earth where God put us in the first place. Not a soul in that world will be an atheist, or a worshipper of false gods. So we have a choice as to whom we will worship and God knows the reasons for our choices. If we are missing from that world, it will be because of the choices we have made.

Loyalty to God comes out of love not fear or force, so if we love God, then his rules will never feel like they are unjust or unreasonable. We will be able to comply with the tenancy rules with no hesitation because we agree to them and we uphold them in spite of what others are doing.

That is how I see it.
I like the Landlord analogy because I have been a Landlord for 10 years and it is not an easy job. :eek:
The rentals are stable now except for one tenant who owes me over 5,000 dollars.
What options does the Landlord have? I can evict him or I can wait till he pays. Once a few years ago he owed me 11,000 dollars but he paid most of that in a few months, but now he is behind again. But I do not like to threaten him, that's not my style.

Its not like we have had no warning from God. Justice is served by warnings and when the warnings are ignored, then there will rightly be consequences.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
“No one else besides Thee hath, at any time, been able to fathom Thy mystery, or befittingly to extol Thy greatness. Unsearchable and high above the praise of men wilt Thou remain for ever. There is none other God but Thee, the Inaccessible, the Omnipotent, the Omniscient, the Holy of Holies.” Gleanings, p. 4
How does Bahaollah knows that there is a mystery? How does he know that Allah is great? Allah is inscrutable, unsearchable. That means that Bahaollah is making up all that he writes by himself without knowing anything about Allah. How does Bahaollah know that Allah is one and there are no other Gods or Goddesses?
Its not like we have had no warning from God. Justice is served by warnings and when the warnings are ignored, then there will rightly be consequences.
What warnings, Trailblazer? Earthquakes, tsunami, volcanic explosions, tornadoes, forest fires, floods, asteroid hits, Corona Virus? Is that how Allah works?
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That differs from what you said earlier in the topic. I quote:
"Indeed, if God made everyone believe in Him that would be a horror. :eek:"

"That is one reason what God does not do what would be within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that He exists."
Earlier you said God does not do all to prove his existence. Now you say that he did everything that he could.
Context is everything.

According to the hypothetical scenario in the OP:
God wants everyone to believe in him,
God did everything within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that he exists.

According to reality:
if God made everyone believe in Him that would be a horror. :eek:
That is one reason what God does not do what would be within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that He exists.
If God's omnipotence extends to only that, then he is hardly a God but a weakling. He tries but cannot prove his existence to all people. He fails and so also his prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis. I am sure, Cthulhu can do better than that.
But the real God did not try to prove He exists, a hypothetical god tried to prove he exists in the hypothetical scenario.
All the real God did was send His Messengers, the real God did not try to get anyone to believe in them.

The only failures were the people who Failed to believe in God when God sent His Messengers.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How does Bahaollah knows that there is a mystery? How does he know that Allah is great? Allah is inscrutable, unsearchable.
He knows that because God revealed that to Him, but the Essence of God still remains a mystery, since God did not reveal His Essence to Baha'u'llah.
That means that Bahaollah is making up all that he writes by himself without knowing anything about Allah. How does Bahaollah know that Allah is one and there are no other Gods or Goddesses?
No, it does not mean that. God revealed some things about Himself but not all things. One thing God revealed is that God is one and that there is only one true God.
What warnings, Trailblazer? Earthquakes, tsunami, volcanic explosions, tornadoes, forest fires, floods, asteroid hits, Corona Virus? Is that how Allah works?
No, those are not the warnings. The warnings are in the Scriptures of the Abrahamic religions.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
According to reality:
if God made everyone believe in Him that would be a horror. :eek:
That is one reason what God does not do what would be within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that He exists.

But the real God did not try to prove He exists, a hypothetical god tried to prove he exists in the hypothetical scenario.
All the real God did was send His Messengers, the real God did not try to get anyone to believe in them.
The only failures were the people who Failed to believe in God when God sent His Messengers.
Why would it be a "horror" if all people believed in your Allah? How is that a reality? Why did Allah send messengers who said believe in Allah? If the messengers did not provide any evidence of the existence of their God or their own mission, then why blame people? Did Bahaollah bring any evidence other than catch phrases?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
He knows that because God revealed that to Him, ..
No, it does not mean that. God revealed some things about Himself but not all things. One thing God revealed is that God is one and that there is only one true God.
No, those are not the warnings. The warnings are in the Scriptures of the Abrahamic religions.
Without any evidence, why should one believe in existence of Allah and what Bahaollah said?
What proof did Allah provide to show that he is one and there is no other God or Goddesses?
What is the authenticity of scriptures of Abrahamic religions? You yourself do not believe in their authencity and say that they have been corrupted.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That is a very strange kind of God. Unless he convinces people of his existence and the need to believe in him, why would people do so?
Because they choose to believe in Him of their own free will.
That is a silly statement. If there was clear evidence, then there would not be the need for faith or belief. It would be a fact. No one will differ on that.
But obviously God does not want His existence to be a fact that everyone agrees upon and that is why there is no clear evidence.
I do not agree with what you mention as a 'good reason'. Go to a court and say that you have evidence, but you would not provide it to judges for a 'good reason' known only to you. Why would the judges or the jury care for what you say?
Religious belief is not criminal law since there is no conviction for not believing.
The last sentence, 'God rewards those who earnestly seek Him with proof'. What proof when Allah (since I am replying to a Bahai) does not provide any? What does your sentence mean?
I have proven it to myself so I have proof.
One silly statement after another. What you mention as evidence may not be any evidence.
It is evidence to me.
For example if I say that I am sent by an Allah, would it be an evidence for Allah or for my 'devine' mission?
No, a claim to be a Messenger is not evidence, as anyone can make a claim.
Then, leave Bahaollah and follow me. He did not provide any better evidence than what I provide.
Indeed He did.
As for the vision of the 'Maid of Heaven', I can also say that she came to me.
That vision is not evidence, I told you that several times before.
And why would it be a horror if everyone believed in Allah? Is that not what you want?
It would be a horror if Allah forced everyone to believe in Him. Universal belief is not what I want.
How will it be a one world under the Bahai banner if all people do not believe in Allah?
Trailblazer, for a change, say something sensible.
I never said that there would be one world under the Baha’i banner; I do not know what banner it will be under, as that is a long way off. By then, another Messenger of God might appear. But everyone will believe in Allah by that time.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why would it be a "horror" if all people believed in your Allah? How is that a reality?
That is not what I said. I said that if God forced everyone to believe in Him it would be a horror.
Why did Allah send messengers who said believe in Allah? If the messengers did not provide any evidence of the existence of their God or their own mission, then why blame people? Did Bahaollah bring any evidence other than catch phrases?
Allah sent Messengers so people would get messages and believe in Allah.
Baha'u'llah provided evidence that showed He was a Messenger but not everyone considered that evidence sufficient.[/QUOTE]
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Without any evidence, why should one believe in existence of Allah and what Bahaollah said?
They shouldn't believe without evidence.
What proof did Allah provide to show that he is one and there is no other God or Goddesses?
There is no proof, only evidence. That evidence is what Baha'u'llah revealed.
What is the authenticity of scriptures of Abrahamic religions? You yourself do not believe in their authencity and say that they have been corrupted.
The Bible is not authentic because Moses and Jesus did not write them and we cannot know if they uttered the words that are attributed to them. The Qur'an is more authentic than the Bible in the sense that it is what Muhammad revealed to scribes, but only the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are wholly authentic since they wrote them in their own pens.
 

February-Saturday

Devil Worshiper
If this is God's earth and his creation, then it is his property, much the same as a Landlord opens up his property for tenants to come in and enjoy living in his clean and well maintained residence. Instead of charging them rent though, he allows them to occupy his property on the condition that they act as the caretakers, maintaining things and keeping the property in good order. Those are the terms and conditions attached to the tenancy agreement.

Now suppose the Landlord on his return after a long absence, finds the property not only damaged and filthy, but the tenants have invited unsavory people to share that property knowing that they were not going to abide by the rules....? They allowed them to do damage and didn't evict them?

What options does the Landlord have? He can evict all the tenants there and then without giving them an opportunity to make things right, or he can allow the original occupants to clean up and repair the property and to tell their dodgy visitors to leave, whereupon he will come back after a reasonable time and make an inspection to see if his rules have been complied with. Which would demonstrate a more reasonable and fair approach to the problem? If you were the original tenants, would you appreciate an opportunity to make it right and retain your residence? Or would you cop the eviction even though you didn't personally do any of the damage?

Now if you did the necessary clean up and repairs, but you allowed the 'visitors' to come back and do the same things as before, then the Landlord, upon inspection, is not going to have a choice, is he?

By allowing us to make choices we are all facing the same inspection. Our relationship with God will ensure that we do not break the rules because we know it would incur his displeasure and result in our own eviction from God's property. We will not join in with what others are doing to this earth and to each other but will try to tell them the consequences of doing so. We will be doing all we can to keep the unsavory characters out of our own lives and not imitating or even condoning their behavior.



Its not like we have had no warning. Justice is served by warnings and when the warnings are ignored, then there will rightly be consequences.

We have known since the Bible was written that an accounting with our Landlord was coming. He gave control of the world over to the god that our first parents chose, in full knowledge of where it would take us....but we needed to see firsthand what happens when we throw God and his rules away. Do we need more evidence that this world's ruler and his rulership is a total failure?

We have had plenty of time to comply with God's requirements, but at the end of the day, only those who have complied, will be granted citizenship in the new world to come. That citizenship is not in heaven but right here on earth where God put us in the first place. Not a soul in that world will be an atheist, or a worshipper of false gods. So we have a choice as to whom we will worship and God knows the reasons for our choices. If we are missing from that world, it will be because of the choices we have made.

Loyalty to God comes out of love not fear or force, so if we love God, then his rules will never feel like they are unjust or unreasonable. We will be able to comply with the tenancy rules with no hesitation because we agree to them and we uphold them in spite of what others are doing.

That is how I see it.

So are you admitting that it is God who's condemning them, then?
 
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