If God existed, under these conditions, would there be any atheists?

[Trailblazer]

God would be a fact under this premise. Belief wouldn't be needed.

Your premise is

"and if God were to do what would be within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that he exists"

I would think that if there is an omnipotent God then he would prove that he exists in such a way that nobody can doubt his existence. Even those who might claim that God doesn't exist would be lying to themselves, but they would know.

Okay thanks, I understand what you are saying now.
They could still reject God, but they would know that God exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes. If they knew good existed, they can reject it. They wouldn't be an atheist for doing so cause they'd still know go exist regardless their opinions about it.

Ya dig?

Yes, I understand what you are saying.

 

[ChristineM]

The very concept of wearing tin foil hats implies that some sort of evidence was compelling enough though. If I could know exactly what and why that evidence was compelling enough I could use it in my favor to prove anything.

Or it can imply that the the wearer does not want to know the evidence. There will always be those who simply do not want to know because it pops their own bubble.

 

[Trailblazer]

There wouldn't be any atheists, but you couldn't prove it... I think it would simply fall in the category of "everyone knows", sort of like we all know we are going to die at some point or another.... but can we prove that someone haven't actually died and just live forever? (talking normal human here... looking at you Jesus )

Do you mean that we can't prove that there would not be any atheists under the set of conditions in my OP?

I do not think it could be proven that there would not be any atheists under that set of conditions, so it is just a personal opinion that there would not be any atheists. It seems as if there would not be very many atheists under those conditions, but there might still be some atheists. The caveat is free will, as people can choose to disbelieve something even if it has been proven to them by God Himself.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course not.

What does "free will" have to do with this?

(And what do you mean by "free will?")

As I just told Nimos, I do not think it could be proven that there would not be any atheists under that set of conditions, so it is just a personal opinion that there would not be any atheists. It seems as if there would not be very many atheists under those conditions, but there might still be some atheists. The caveat is free will, as people can choose to disbelieve something even if it has been proven to them by God Himself.

Here is the dictionary definition of free will:

free will

1 : voluntary choice or decision I do this of my own free will
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Definition of FREEWILL

Here is my own definition of free will:

Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am not sure how what anyone wants relates to this. At most we can say there could be people in denial (as in people that actually believe but say otherwise).

I kind of agree.
They would know, but they could deny what they know.
So they would still be atheists.

 

[Trailblazer]

As i said in your previous thread even with evidence, fact and proof there will still people who will not believe the evidence, fact and proof. It happens now with bible literalist, funnymentalists and creationists. Why do you think, even given all the "valid" evidence you suggest, that people are going to change?

I don't think they would change. As long as humans have free will they could choose to disbelieve even what had been proven to them by God. ONLY if God took over their will would they have no choice.

 

[robocop (actually)]

This is a follow up thread to my previous thread:

If God existed, would there be any atheists?

If God existed, and God is omnipotent (meaning that he could do anything not logically impossible), and if God is omniscient (meaning he would know how to get everyone to believe in him) and if God wants everyone to believe in him, and if God were to do what would be within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that he exists, would there be any atheists?

No there would not be any atheists, logically.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As I just told Nimos, I do not think it could be proven that there would not be any atheists under that set of conditions, so it is just a personal opinion that there would not be any atheists.

Yes, it can be proven. Any atheists remaining would would violate at least one of your premises.

It seems as if there would not be very many atheists under those conditions, but there might still be some atheists.

If there are any atheists at all, then either:

- God didn't have the power to convince them that he exists, or
- God didn't know how to convince them, or
- God doesn't want to convince them.

The caveat is free will, as people can choose to disbelieve something even if it has been proven to them by God Himself.

This violates your premises.

You said that God "would know how to get everyone to believe in him." The implication of what you're saying now is that he doesn't actually know how to do this.

Here is the dictionary definition of free will:

free will

1 : voluntary choice or decision I do this of my own free will
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Definition of FREEWILL

Here is my own definition of free will:

Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity.

Right... so how is any of this relevant?

You say that free will is "the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences." Well, if God decides what those "desires and preferences" are, then God can control what you do, regardless of you being free to choose between the desires that God has given you.

IOW, free will as you've described it wouldn't stop God from being able to choose any outcome he wants.

And if it did stop him, you'd be violating your own premises again: you said that "God wants everyone to believe in him." If God doesn't want everyone to believe in him because it would violate their free will, then the premise that God wants everyone to believe in him would be false.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I kind of agree.
They would know, but they could deny what they know.
So they would still be atheists.

That's not an atheist.

 

[ChristineM]

I don't think they would change. As long as humans have free will they could choose to disbelieve even what had been proven to them by God. ONLY if God took over their will would they have no choice.

We almost agree on something, wow ;-)

I think given falsifiable evidence most would have no choice but to believe the evidence. After all, to deny it is to deny your own belief in the validity of evidence. That is not to say they would bow down and worship this newly proven god but they would have to believe its its existence.

Where we almost agree is that i believe that no amount of evidence will change some minds just as now, no amount of evidence will educate a creationist

 

[Trailblazer]

If a fact is apparent, we know it without looking for it.

True.

In your experience, do people stop believing in things just because they don't want them to be true?

Sometimes. For example, a mother might deny that her child is going to die even though the doctor says the child has a terminal illness.

That's the way you set things up. In your OP, you said, effectively, that:

- God always gets what he wants, and
- God wants everyone to believe in him.

The logical conclusion of this is that everyone would believe in God. Anything else would violate your premises.

Here is what I said in the OP:

If God existed, and God is omnipotent (meaning that he could do anything not logically impossible), and if God is omniscient (meaning he would know how to get everyone to believe in him) and if God wants everyone to believe in him, and if God were to do what would be within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that he exists, would there be any atheists?

I said if God wants everyone to believe in him but I did not say that God always gets what he wants.

God can get whatever He wants since God is omnipotent, but God might not want to get everyone to believe in Him by using His omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that He exists. God might want people to choose to believe in Him by virtue of their own power, using their free will to make that choice.

 

[February-Saturday]

How do you reconcile this:

God is not causing this....God is permitting it however, because in this process only those loyal to God out of love will survive the catastrophe that is coming upon a world of ungodly people.....the "great tribulation" that is prophesied as part of the "time of the end" will strike without warning. It will herald the end of one age and the beginning of another...but it will not be by the hand of man.

What is the point? As demonstrated in the days of Noah, love and loyalty to God, no matter what the rest of the world thinks or believes; if we are not prepared to demonstrate our faith by our actions in the face of ridicule and ungodly behavior, then we will have no place when God again cleanses the earth of all wickedness. (Matthew 24:37-39; 2 Peter 2:5-6; 2 Peter 3:3-7)

With this:

By our own free will, we choose our own destiny.....that is its value....that is why it was given, and that is why it must be retained. God does not condemn us...it is we who condemn ourselves.

To me, the whole idea of God cleansing the earth of the people who weren't loyal to him sounds like God condemning people that don't do what he tells them. You spent a lot of time saying they're different things, but I just don't see how.

You could make the argument that God's condemnation is just, but if you believe he's going to come and mercilessly slaughter everyone that doesn't worship him then you can't say those people are condemning themselves. It's pretty clearly God that's doing all of the genocide, isn't it?

 

[Trailblazer]

If God did that, he'd eliminate atheism. So, there wouldn't be atheists by definition. (God enslaving everyone, the horror!).

God might eliminate those atheists who want to believe in Him, but there would still be atheists who would deny the evidence that God provided.

Indeed, if God made everyone believe in Him that would be a horror.
That is one reason what God does not do what would be within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that He exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

Even if a person were completely irrational, God would still know what it would take to convince that person and be capable carrying it out.

You are correct. An omniscient God would know what it would take to convince everyone that He exists, but my OP did not say that God wanted to convince everyone that He exists. It says: God wants everyone to believe in him.

If God existed, and God is omnipotent (meaning that he could do anything not logically impossible), and if God is omniscient (meaning he would know how to get everyone to believe in him) and if God wants everyone to believe in him, and if God were to do what would be within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that he exists, would there be any atheists?

 

[Willamena]

If God existed, and God is omnipotent (meaning that he could do anything not logically impossible), and if God is omniscient (meaning he would know how to get everyone to believe in him) and if God wants everyone to believe in him, and if God were to do what would be within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that he exists, would there be any atheists?

Of course, because "he" gave us free will.

Edit: for the record, neither omnipotent nor omniscience include things that are impossible. If they did, there would be no impossible, and hence a problem.

 

[Trailblazer]

To the question at the end: yes, for a while (even after the massive evidence is shown to everyone), until the end, when a direct and overwhelming personal alteration has happened.

So, some won't believe even with a lot of evidence easily visible, until the fact of the Thing has already happened directly to them in some overwhelming way, and happened, past tense.

And that personal alteration is something only we can experience; it cannot be proven to anyone else because it is personal.

God wants us to have faith in Him instead of merely seeing easy evidence.

An omnipotent God could provide easy evidence but the logical reason that God does not provide easy evidence is because in that case we would not have to have faith.

"Faith" isn't to "believe after observing the reality". That's not what "faith" is.

Instead, faith is to believe before seeing. It's basically a form of powerful trusting in the Good. (in the One Who saves)

There's a very good reason for this requirement God makes -- that we must believe (have faith) first, before proof.

I can always count on Christians to come up with the best posts.

Yes, there is a very good reason for this requirement God makes -- that we must believe (have faith) first, before proof, and it is summed up in this verse:

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

God wants us to have faith and God rewards those who earnestly seek Him with proof.

Regarding faith, this song says it all.

 

[Willamena]

And that personal alteration is something only we can experience; it cannot be proven to anyone else because it is personal.

Wait. Is that significant?

(It's kinda what "personal" means.)

 

[Koldo]

Or it can imply that the the wearer does not want to know the evidence. There will always be those who simply do not want to know because it pops their own bubble.

You might not want to know something to the point you do not want to check the evidence, but how does 'wanting to know' something matter when it gets on your face?

If the question was more like: "If God wanted and could prove that he exists but people had to choose whether they wanted to have this proof, would there be atheists?", I would say 'Yes.'.

 

[Koldo]

I kind of agree.
They would know, but they could deny what they know.
So they would still be atheists.

I disagree. They would be theists but pretend to be atheists.