Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The jury is out on that.
Where did you get that idea? I never read any such thing.
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If God existed, under these conditions, would there be any atheists?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
But what about the atheists who are not looking to know if God exists?
What about atheists who would not want to believe in God even if God existed?
How can you say there would not be any atheists under my premise?
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
Here's the difference in my opinion. You and I both agree that there is MORE than enough evidence to accept that the Earth is a sphere. It's OBVIOUS to both us us and to most people. However, as reliable and verifiable and WE might find all of the evidence, there are people who genuine do NOT see the same evidence we see as reliable evidence. They've been convinced that it's 'made up' evidence, they've deluded themselves into believing that it's all a huge conspiracy to fool people into FALSELY believing that the Earth really isn't flat. No one has ever show them the evidence that THEY would require to accept the truth that the Earth really IS a sphere... what that 'evidence' may or may not be, I have no idea. And until someone does show them that elusive evidence, they'll continue to have a lack of belief that the Earth is round.
Now in your current OP you've stated that there is a god capable of knowing PRECISELY what evidence each and every atheist would require in order to MAKE them believe that god actually exists, that is to say this god has the power to make it IMPOSSIBLE for them to NOT believe, then of course there would be no one who lacked a belief in god, and thus no atheists.
People don't have free will to CHOOSE what they genuinely believe and what they genuinely lack belief in. People either have enough of what THEY consider to be sufficient evidence for something to be believed or they don't. For instance, you can't simply choose to believe that fire isn't hot if you've ever touched it and received convincing evidence that it IS hot.
What people do have free will to choose is whether or not they admit what they genuinely believe or don't believe. For instance I'm certain that there are people who have reviewed the mountains of evidence for evolution and in their hearts believe that it's a real process, but who will publicly deny that the theory is valid, because it conflicts with what their church teaches, but that wouldn't be a genuine lack of belief in evolution, that would just be them PRETENDING to lack a belief in evolution.
Likewise, it's certainly possible that you could have someone who 'didn't want to believe in any god' who was presented with evidence they couldn't deny in their hearts that a god exists who would then publicly claim that they lack such belief, but that wouldn't be a genuine lack of belief in god, it wouldn't be a genuine atheist, it would just be someone PRETENDING to be an atheist.
Samael_Khan
Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
God would be a fact under this premise. Belief wouldn't be needed.
Your premise is
"and if God were to do what would be within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that he exists"
I would think that if there is an omnipotent God then he would prove that he exists in such a way that nobody can doubt his existence. Even those who might claim that God doesn't exist would be lying to themselves, but they would know.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Reject and disbelief are two different things. For example, I don't believe God exists so I have no reason to reject it. I wouldn't be able to reject something that doesn't exist. I can select the idea and claim there is a good but not good itself. Atheists don't believe god exist.
If people believed the Earth is flat and someone else doesn't believe it, the latter would make him a disbeliever (lbw) to that claim. He can't reject a flat Earth. It's just not a fact.
Personally, I find it irrational to reject a good that one doesn't believe exists. If there is lack of evidence, one would reject the claim not the source of it itself.
Yes. If they knew good existed, they can reject it. They wouldn't be an atheist for doing so cause they'd still know go exist regardless their opinions about it.
Ya dig?
Nimos
Well-Known Member
Your welcomeOne logical answer down, and more to go.I knew I could count on you @ Nimos
There wouldn't be any atheists, but you couldn't prove it... I think it would simply fall in the category of "everyone knows", sort of like we all know we are going to die at some point or another.... but can we prove that someone haven't actually died and just live forever? (talking normal human here... looking at you Jesus
)rational experiences
Veteran Member
A question I have always asked as a spiritual human, if science in religious science or just science believed in God, then why change the states of natural for human invention for human purposes and a human lifestyle?
And then if we humans were from evil, then why does science do such evil experiments using machines that they could not perform at all unless they designed and used and operated those machines?
Where is the equal rights and human ability to be treated as that equal in equal living conditions rationally?
As a little child I was so scared of the discussions of God, I truly thought that as I did not believe in "a God" as it was too awful to reason, then I would be struck down by lightning.
Why would a child own such reasoning?
As an adult and nearly died from being gas burnt irradiated, I realized it is because humans knew that science in the past killed us all by acts of God...meaning changes that they forced the Earth stone body to own.
Hence when I was harmed....my Holy Father spoke to me. Now if you want to own a rational human review about where did we come from, and did we know.......most humans would say, yes. And then say, when I die I still own one higher spirit self that was always higher than bio life.
What we spiritual humans know and believe. So then science says I will not believe unless it is proven...then go about doing experiments, and even study NDE to see if they can find "spirit".
So everyone would ask, where is your rationality science, if you did not believe your own self, as humans, then you would not be searching and applying research into the conditions of "eternal", yet claim that power is infinite.
Yet infinite by word use means, cannot factor a number or methodology to measure in space.
Infinite in word usage says oblivion is its description...as creation, involves destruction and consuming of form also....so more and more space opens, as more and more bodies consume and be removed. Space then owns the condition for colder and colder to evolve.
Did I believe that I had a Holy Father? No...my human Father was an alcoholic and he never even showed any interest in my life or anything I did or believed in.
Was I surprised when I heard my Father speak to me, as I was forced to hear singing voices....a condition that I also never knew was real....yet other humans said they heard angels singing! Yes I was very surprised and he even knew my name...and said "I was his".
And that reasoning was not God. Father, always was a human life, as an adult male invented all reasons about God the O stone in science.
My Father however once owned life manifestation as multi males paired with our human Mother O all around the Earth.....who manifested out as living spirits.
Our first and original human parents. When he spoke to me, he owned a very large male life recording. So tell me brother, how could he have known me, or known that I was being harmed unless he is real...and you always quote "he" in God quotes...as if he is a very large spiritual being.
Yet all of the science quotes about God in power is stone converting and UFO radiation mass causes....as scientific quotes about the release of energy and powers in mass?
Seems like you are all wrong.
And then if we humans were from evil, then why does science do such evil experiments using machines that they could not perform at all unless they designed and used and operated those machines?
Where is the equal rights and human ability to be treated as that equal in equal living conditions rationally?
As a little child I was so scared of the discussions of God, I truly thought that as I did not believe in "a God" as it was too awful to reason, then I would be struck down by lightning.
Why would a child own such reasoning?
As an adult and nearly died from being gas burnt irradiated, I realized it is because humans knew that science in the past killed us all by acts of God...meaning changes that they forced the Earth stone body to own.
Hence when I was harmed....my Holy Father spoke to me. Now if you want to own a rational human review about where did we come from, and did we know.......most humans would say, yes. And then say, when I die I still own one higher spirit self that was always higher than bio life.
What we spiritual humans know and believe. So then science says I will not believe unless it is proven...then go about doing experiments, and even study NDE to see if they can find "spirit".
So everyone would ask, where is your rationality science, if you did not believe your own self, as humans, then you would not be searching and applying research into the conditions of "eternal", yet claim that power is infinite.
Yet infinite by word use means, cannot factor a number or methodology to measure in space.
Infinite in word usage says oblivion is its description...as creation, involves destruction and consuming of form also....so more and more space opens, as more and more bodies consume and be removed. Space then owns the condition for colder and colder to evolve.
Did I believe that I had a Holy Father? No...my human Father was an alcoholic and he never even showed any interest in my life or anything I did or believed in.
Was I surprised when I heard my Father speak to me, as I was forced to hear singing voices....a condition that I also never knew was real....yet other humans said they heard angels singing! Yes I was very surprised and he even knew my name...and said "I was his".
And that reasoning was not God. Father, always was a human life, as an adult male invented all reasons about God the O stone in science.
My Father however once owned life manifestation as multi males paired with our human Mother O all around the Earth.....who manifested out as living spirits.
Our first and original human parents. When he spoke to me, he owned a very large male life recording. So tell me brother, how could he have known me, or known that I was being harmed unless he is real...and you always quote "he" in God quotes...as if he is a very large spiritual being.
Yet all of the science quotes about God in power is stone converting and UFO radiation mass causes....as scientific quotes about the release of energy and powers in mass?
Seems like you are all wrong.
Of course not.
What does "free will" have to do with this?
(And what do you mean by "free will?")
Koldo
Outstanding Member
No. I don't see how it could be any other way.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
I am not sure how what anyone wants relates to this. At most we can say there could be people in denial (as in people that actually believe but say otherwise).
As i said in your previous thread even with evidence, fact and proof there will still people who will not believe the evidence, fact and proof. It happens now with bible literalist, funnymentalists and creationists. Why do you think, even given all the "valid" evidence you suggest, that people are going to change?
If a fact is apparent, we know it without looking for it.
In your experience, do people stop believing in things just because they don't want them to be true?
That's the way you set things up. In your OP, you said, effectively, that:
- God always gets what he wants, and
- God wants everyone to believe in him.
The logical conclusion of this is that everyone would believe in God. Anything else would violate your premises.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Bible fundamentalists are not complete skepticals though. Some sort of evidence was sufficient to convince them to believe what they do. God would know what sort of evidence would convince them and how to produce it.
syo
Well-Known Member
If God did that, he'd eliminate atheism. So, there wouldn't be atheists by definition. (God enslaving everyone, the horror!).
I think there will always be those who ignore evidence. That's what aluminium foil hats are for
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
If God made himself so apparent that one could not plausibly/rationally deny his existence, then no, I don't think there could be any atheists.
It would be like asking if one, when birthed by their mother, raised by their mother and then at the moment you ask even presented with their mother, could tell you that they didn't believe that they had a mother. It would be complete foolishness.
It would be like asking if one, when birthed by their mother, raised by their mother and then at the moment you ask even presented with their mother, could tell you that they didn't believe that they had a mother. It would be complete foolishness.
I don't think that premises that @Trailblazer gave even require people to be rational.
Even if a person were completely irrational, God would still know what it would take to convince that person and be capable carrying it out.
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
To the question at the end: yes, for a while (even after the massive evidence is shown to everyone), until the end, when a direct and overwhelming personal alteration has happened.
I saw an interesting example of this after some massive California fire a few years back, where a camera was recording people arriving back at their houses, to get their first impressions. A family got out of their car and was visibly very surprised, easily visible on their faces, to see that their house had burned down.
Even though hundreds of houses had burned, and all the surrounding houses in that very subdivision had burned down....but still they were totally surprised their own house had burned, and said as much to the camera, as I recall. -- "I just didn't think it would happen to us."
So, some won't believe even with a lot of evidence easily visible, until the fact of the Thing has already happened directly to them in some overwhelming way, and happened, past tense.
There is a 2nd premise to look at tho, an implied one.
God wants us to have faith in Him instead of merely seeing easy evidence.
"Faith" isn't to "believe after observing the reality". That's not what "faith" is.
Instead, faith is to believe before seeing. It's basically a form of powerful trusting in the Good. (in the One Who saves)
There's a very good reason for this requirement God makes -- that we must believe (have faith) first, before proof.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
God exists, is omnipotent, omniscient. He wants everyone to trust Him but gives people free will--which is why there are atheists.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
The very concept of wearing tin foil hats implies that some sort of evidence was compelling enough though. If I could know exactly what and why that evidence was compelling enough I could use it in my favor to prove anything.