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If God exists, then our reality is a simulation

839311

Well-Known Member
God is omnipotent. He possesses the ultimate intelligence. He has power over all of reality, shaping it into whatever form he chooses. But what form would he choose?

I'm going to argue that the form he would choose would be to create as much life as possible, while at the same time supplying that life with a rich experience. The best way to do this would be to use all of the available resources of reality in as efficient a way as possible. Creating simulated realities would be the optimal choice to accomplish this.

If this is true, then he would not leave any resources unused. But what does this mean for us?

1. There are numerous worlds within our solar system which are lifeless. But if God is omnipotent, why would he allow all of this matter and energy of which these worlds are composed of to go unused? They don't have life in it. They are useless, floating around doing nothing useful for life at all. But if God exists, then he would actually have used all matter and energy in as efficient a way as possible. Thus, if God exists, then these worlds, and all other matter and energy which appears unused, must be part of a simulation, because otherwise the resources of which these worlds are composed would be unused, and God would not allow this to happen.

2. Life is created in as efficient a way as possible. Legs, arms, and eyes are unnecessary. God would instead only create minds that have consciousness, in as efficient a way as possible. He would create these minds capable of sensing, and an efficient mechanism by which sensory input would be provided and that could be interpreted by these minds in such a way as to create a virtual reality, the simulation.

By using as few resources as possible to create life, and as few resources as possible to supply it with a virtual reality, and using all of the available matter and energy in reality to create as much life as possible, he would accomplish his goal of creating as much life as possible with a potentially endless number of virtual realities that could be created for all beings, for their eternal enjoyment and benefit.

Therefore, if God does exist, then that means that all living things are currently in a simulation, including the simulation of our current reality.

This has further implications for us.

We would be unable to tell what is real and unreal, unless it is made known to us. As far as we could tell, anyone we know could be a simulated person, unless multiple beings are 'plugged into' the same simulation.

:thud:
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Yep, that's pretty much what some Sages have been teaching; except they most often refer to it as the "Divine Play."
 

839311

Well-Known Member
Yep, that's pretty much what some Sages have been teaching; except they most often refer to it as the "Divine Play."

The idea of Maya comes to mind. When I first heard of ideas like 'this world is an illusion', I remember dismissing such claims as more or less crazy. Whereas now, for the reasons listed in the OP, I think it is almost certainly the case if God exists and possesses the qualities listed in the OP. But, the OP assumes those qualities. As far as I know, he may be a lunatic, or evil, or less intelligent than a cow if the divine mind isn't as advanced as most people think it would be. If one of those is true, then maybe this isnt a simulation and all that matter and energy that is not being used in the way outlined in the OP is being more or less wasted.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
The idea of Maya comes to mind. When I first heard of ideas like 'this world is an illusion', I remember dismissing such claims as more or less crazy.

That is understandable, except when they say "illusion", they mean that this world isn't the true reality, since it's impermanent and full of impermanent things; the Supreme is the only true Reality. They don't mean "illusion" in the sense that we use the word.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God is omnipotent. He possesses the ultimate intelligence. He has power over all of reality, shaping it into whatever form he chooses. But what form would he choose?

I'm going to argue that the form he would choose would be to create as much life as possible, while at the same time supplying that life with a rich experience. The best way to do this would be to use all of the available resources of reality in as efficient a way as possible. Creating simulated realities would be the optimal choice to accomplish this.

If this is true, then he would not leave any resources unused. But what does this mean for us?

1. There are numerous worlds within our solar system which are lifeless. But if God is omnipotent, why would he allow all of this matter and energy of which these worlds are composed of to go unused? They don't have life in it. They are useless, floating around doing nothing useful for life at all. But if God exists, then he would actually have used all matter and energy in as efficient a way as possible. Thus, if God exists, then these worlds, and all other matter and energy which appears unused, must be part of a simulation, because otherwise the resources of which these worlds are composed would be unused, and God would not allow this to happen.

2. Life is created in as efficient a way as possible. Legs, arms, and eyes are unnecessary. God would instead only create minds that have consciousness, in as efficient a way as possible. He would create these minds capable of sensing, and an efficient mechanism by which sensory input would be provided and that could be interpreted by these minds in such a way as to create a virtual reality, the simulation.

By using as few resources as possible to create life, and as few resources as possible to supply it with a virtual reality, and using all of the available matter and energy in reality to create as much life as possible, he would accomplish his goal of creating as much life as possible with a potentially endless number of virtual realities that could be created for all beings, for their eternal enjoyment and benefit.

Therefore, if God does exist, then that means that all living things are currently in a simulation, including the simulation of our current reality.

This has further implications for us.

We would be unable to tell what is real and unreal, unless it is made known to us. As far as we could tell, anyone we know could be a simulated person, unless multiple beings are 'plugged into' the same simulation.

:thud:
All of this seems to be based on the assumed condition that the hypothetical creation is finite. If there existed an omnipotent god, she could create infinite quantities of anything and everything, and the concept of efficiency loses its meaning when addressing the scale of the whole infinite system. It also has a decidedly deist or monotheist assumption.
 

839311

Well-Known Member
All of this seems to be based on the assumed condition that the hypothetical creation is finite.

Its not assumed in the OP that the creation is finite. Its not stated, but lets say that reality is infinite in this scenario, and God is omnipotent as was part of the argument. It would be within his power to shape all of infinite reality into whatever form he chose.

If there existed an omnipotent god, she could create infinite quantities of anything and everything,

I disagree with this, since I think it is impossible to create anything from nothing. Im not sure if this is what you meant, but I think he can only 'shape' reality into whatever form he wants.

and the concept of efficiency loses its meaning when addressing the scale of the whole infinite system.

Im not sure why you think efficiency would lose its meaning. The concept is just as meaningful, I think. And, if reality is infinite, as I believe it is, then it would be that much more awesome because the optimal system outlined in the OP would be infinite, created for the benefit of an infinite number of beings.

It also has a decidedly deist or monotheist assumption.

Sure, the assumptions are part of the argument. I think it could work in a polytheist system as well. So, in that case the gods could all agree with the plan outlined in the OP, if it is indeed the optimal system.
 

wmjbyatt

Lunatic from birth
I'm going to argue that the form he would choose would be to create as much life as possible

This is where you lose me. First: how the hell do you claim to know the mind of God? Second: who says non-life is in some fashion greater than life?

As to the rest of your silly post: God is supratemporal, how the hell do you know what the usage of that raw matter is or shall be in the future? Our Universe is a baby, and it's just getting sweeter with age, dude.
 

St Giordano Bruno

Well-Known Member
1. There are numerous worlds within our solar system which are lifeless. But if God is omnipotent, why would he allow all of this matter and energy of which these worlds are composed of to go unused? They don't have life in it. They are useless, floating around doing nothing useful for life at all. But if God exists, then he would actually have used all matter and energy in as efficient a way as possible. Thus, if God exists, then these worlds, and all other matter and energy which appears unused, must be part of a simulation, because otherwise the resources of which these worlds are composed would be unused, and God would not allow this to happen.


:thud:

There could also be a plethora of dead universes far outnumbering this universe than dead planets in this universe outnumber the living ones.
 

839311

Well-Known Member
First: how do you claim to know the mind of God?

I don't. Even in this thread i made that clear when I said "As far as I know, he may be a lunatic, or evil, or less intelligent than a cow if the divine mind isn't as advanced as most people think it would be."

Second: who says non-life is in some fashion greater than life?

I think what you meant to say was "who says non-life isn't in some fashion greater than life?"

I see absolutely zero reasons to think that non-life is greater than life. Far from it, in my opinion, comparing the two would be like comparing something of no value (non-life) with something of infinite value (life).

As to the rest of your silly post: God is supratemporal, how do you know what the usage of that raw matter is or shall be in the future?

I don't see how thats relevant. If God has thought about what to do with reality and decided that the ultimate system would be the one that is described in the OP, then why revert back to something less optimal in the future? It would be like if you were a billionaire and bought a Lamborghini Murcielago, and then decided to switch to a Ford Focus.

Our Universe is a baby, and it's just getting sweeter with age, dude.

Sure. But that doesn't mean that this universe, as we perceive it to be, isn't actually a simulation.

There could also be a plethora of dead universes far outnumbering this universe than dead planets in this universe outnumber the living ones.

Yes, but that doesn't really address the OP at all.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
I see absolutely zero reasons to think that non-life is greater than life. Far from it, in my opinion, comparing the two would be like comparing something of no value (non-life) with something of infinite value (life).
Life is only infinitely valuable because it can't be built on demand. ;)
 

839311

Well-Known Member
Life is only infinitely valuable because it can't be built on demand. ;)

I don't see how that makes it infinitely valuable.

Regarding the OP, if God had already created the system as outlined in the OP, the there would be no more matter/energy left to use, and so no more life would be created because we would already be at the optimal level of life. So, the 'demand' to build more life would cease to exist.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Its not assumed in the OP that the creation is finite. Its not stated, but lets say that reality is infinite in this scenario, and God is omnipotent as was part of the argument. It would be within his power to shape all of infinite reality into whatever form he chose.

I disagree with this, since I think it is impossible to create anything from nothing. Im not sure if this is what you meant, but I think he can only 'shape' reality into whatever form he wants.

Im not sure why you think efficiency would lose its meaning. The concept is just as meaningful, I think. And, if reality is infinite, as I believe it is, then it would be that much more awesome because the optimal system outlined in the OP would be infinite, created for the benefit of an infinite number of beings.

Sure, the assumptions are part of the argument. I think it could work in a polytheist system as well. So, in that case the gods could all agree with the plan outlined in the OP, if it is indeed the optimal system.
I don't see why, if a god is assumed for the sake of discussion, the concept of creating something from nothing would be taken off the table.

Besides, if you think reality is infinite, it doesn't matter how many dead worlds or universes there are. Even if 0.000000000000000000000001% of the infinite cosmos is livable space and filled with life forms, a fraction of infinity is still infinity. You can have an infinite system, created for the benefit of an infinite number of beings, and yet still allow the system to be grossly inefficient. Efficiency on the broad scale becomes a non-issue in an infinite system.
 

839311

Well-Known Member
I don't see why, if a god is assumed for the sake of discussion, the concept of creating something from nothing would be taken off the table.

Because its impossible.

Besides, if you think reality is infinite, it doesn't matter how many dead worlds or universes there are. Even if 0.000000000000000000000001% of the infinite cosmos is livable space and filled with life forms, a fraction of infinity is still infinity.

Sure.

You can have an infinite system, created for the benefit of an infinite number of beings, and yet still allow the system to be grossly inefficient.

Sure, you could allow the system to be grossly inefficient.

Efficiency on the broad scale becomes a non-issue in an infinite system.

Quality and quantity are both important. The system outlined in the OP is more or less making reality into a perfect system, whereas the option you've mentioned is far from perfect. I would expect your option to be the case if God had some serious flaws, such as maybe laziness. Which he might have. But, I'd like to think that a being of that kind of power would be far more virtuous. It would all depend on what kind of a god God would be lol.
 

methylatedghosts

Can't brain. Has dumb.
Define "real."

I have always liked the matrix definition:

"What is real? How do you define real? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain" - Morpheus.
 

839311

Well-Known Member
impossible for an omnipotent god...?

how do you figure...?

Simple. You can't create something from nothing. The proposition itself doesn't even make sense. When there is nothing, there is nothing from which to create something. God being omnipotent still limits his power over that which is real. That which isn't real, doesn't exist.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Simple. You can't create something from nothing. The proposition itself doesn't even make sense. When there is nothing, there is nothing from which to create something. God being omnipotent still limits his power over that which is real. That which isn't real, doesn't exist.
"If you wish to create an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe."
 
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