If God forgave everyone, there wouldn't be any justice

[Estro Felino]

Well...Protestants often say that believing in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is what saves us. This is not true - I believe- because merits are personal. Jesus had his own merits and nobody can steal them from him.
If you want to save yourself, earn your salvation through your own merits.
That's the sense of live: to create our own merits which are emblem of our creativity and uniqueness.
So God can't and doesn't forgive anyone. The perpetrators will go to Hell, as well as the victims to Heaven. And there s nothing that God can do about it.
I guess that's what the crucifixion is for: to show us it is better to be a victim (like Jesus) than a perpetrator (like Caiaphas), because in the afterlife the victims will be the winners.

 

[Estro Felino]

I can give you an example. One year ago, Argentinian dictator J R Videla died of old age in jail. He was a murderer, responsible for the death of thousands of desaparecidos and he never repented.
He said that he would do again what he did, if it was necessary.
Well...as a Christian I hope he didn't suffer when he died, because nobody, not even the worst of the murderers, deserve physical pain.
But I am happy because he's suffering spiritual pain and suffering for eternity. He's now trapped in the eternal prison of his own hatred and wickedness. For eternity. That's what makes me incredibly happy and satisfied.
Blessed those who thirst for justice, for they will be filled

 

[Glaurung]

Well...Protestants often say that believing in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is what saves us.

I really don't know why you continue with this. Salvation through faith in Christ by his crucifixion is the basic premise of Christianity. We are not saying that there is no merit in good works (in fact, faith in Christ demands it) No one is saying that one can just merely declare their belief in Jesus and voilà; a free, effortless, unconditional ticket to heaven!

Now, there are different ideas about how exactly our salvation functions in relation to faith, but our total and utter dependence on God is clear. if you don't like that, that's fine, but realise that you are more or less inventing your own theology that is incompatible with orthodox Christian belief. So don't be all too surprised that the Christians here aren't all flocking to Haynism.

 

[Estro Felino]

Now, there are different ideas about how exactly our salvation functions in relation to faith, but our total and utter dependence on God is clear. if you don't like that, that's fine, but realise that you are more or less inventing your own theology that is incompatible with orthodox Christian belief..

Well..I certainly respect your belief, which is also most Christians' belief.
I believe in the absolute autonomy from God, so even Atheists will save themselves, if they are loving and sinless person.
well...in a certain way I am "inventing" my own theology. Even if it's Pelagius' theology, which was labeled as heresy many centuries ago.

I dare say that Augustine's theology was universally accepted because it makes people feel comfortable and not guilty.
People don't want to consider themselves guilty: and as long as they will repress their sense of guilt, they will keep sinning, by hoping to be saved by an external God, divided from them

 

[Glaurung]

I believe in the absolute autonomy from God, so even Atheists will save themselves, if they are loving and sinless person.

Then beyond your baptism, I simply cannot in good conscience consider you Christian. You reject the very belief on which Christianity rests.

I dare say that Augustine's theology was universally accepted because it makes people feel comfortable and not guilty.
People don't want to consider themselves guilty: and until they will repress their sense of guilt, they will keep sinning, by hoping to be saved by an external God.

If you think that is even close to what Augustine taught then you have seriously misconstrued him. People dislike Augustine because of the profound sense of sin he had. I've only just begun to read Augustine's confessions myself, and it's so far proving to be a beautiful text, although I'm only a few chapters in at this point. It's clear even at my current level of exposure to him, that you don't actually know what he taught. Just assertions of what he taught based on what you've heard.

 

[Estro Felino]

If you think that is even close to what Augustine taught then you have seriously misconstrued him. People dislike Augustine because of the profound sense of sin he had. I've only just begun to read Augustine's confessions myself and it's so far proving to be a beautiful text, although I'm only a few chapters in at this point.

You should read the passages when Augustine criticizes Pelagius' vision.
Pelagius says that we are supposed to be sinless, if we want to earn salvation.
Augustine says that man can't do but sin, so they have to accept they are limited and hope to be saved by Christ's cross

It is clear that people, by reading this, will stop feeling themselves guilty. They will think: "I can't do but sin, so I shouldn't be ashamed of my actions, if I sin"

 

[sandandfoam]

It seems clear to me that sin and justice are human concepts. As such I see no need to attribute them to God.

 

[Sunstone]

It seems clear to me that sin and justice are human concepts. As such I see no need to attribute them to God.

Exactly!

 

[ScuzManiac]

Well...Protestants often say that believing in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is what saves us. This is not true - I believe- because merits are personal. Jesus had his own merits and nobody can steal them from him.
If you want to save yourself, earn your salvation through your own merits.
That's the sense of live: to create our own merits which are emblem of our creativity and uniqueness.
So God can't and doesn't forgive anyone. The perpetrators will go to Hell, as well as the victims to Heaven. And there s nothing that God can do about it.
I guess that's what the crucifixion is for: to show us it is better to be a victim (like Jesus) than a perpetrator (like Caiaphas), because in the afterlife the victims will be the winners.

How do you know none of the victims were just as bad?

Drug dealers, murderers, rapists, etc are victims sometimes as well.

Why do they deserve a free ticket to "heaven" or some eternal paradise?

Just curious.

 

[Estro Felino]

How do you know none of the victims were just as bad?

Drug dealers, murderers, rapists, etc are victims sometimes as well.

Why do they deserve a free ticket to "heaven" or some eternal paradise?

Just curious.

Does a murderer deserve to die?

 

[Sleeppy]

Does a murderer deserve to die?

Do you know what God did with Cain?

 

[Estro Felino]

Do you know what God did with Cain?

precisely. he said : Hands off Cain

 

[Sleeppy]

precisely. he said : Hands off Cain

Why did He do that?

 

[Estro Felino]

Why did He do that?

because nobody has the right to take someone's life. Free will (and life) are sacred

 

[Sleeppy]

because nobody has the right to take someone's life. Free will (and life) are sacred

But then you have no problem confining Caiaphas to hell? Is his life sacred, in hell? What about Moses? Or Elisha? Or David? Or Jesus?

And he said unto the disciples, 'It is impossible for the stumbling blocks not to come, but wo [to him] through whom they come; it is more profitable to him if a weighty millstone is put round about his neck, and he hath been cast into the sea, than that he may cause one of these little ones to stumble.

'

The first three have killed, and endorsed killings in their laws.. The last speaks of killing, for profit- but then forgives his own murderers while being crucified. Are all of them, including God, justified?

 

[Estro Felino]

But then you have no problem confining Caiaphas to hell? Is his life sacred, in hell? What about Moses? Or Elisha? Or David? Or Jesus?

Is it me who decided to confine Caiaphas to Hell? Who am I ?
Hell is a metaphor: when you die, you are confined to your soul. Do you think that Caiaphas' soul was full of love, compassion and altruism? I don't think so.
If I had to compare his soul to a place, I would imagine a waste arid land
'

The first three have killed, and endorsed killings in their laws.. The last speaks of killing, for profit- but then forgives his own murderers while being crucified. Are all of them, including God, justified?

If I forgive a murderer, it doesn't mean anything. My forgiveness doesn't save this murderer, if he\she keeps killing.
So their salvation depends on them. And it doesn't certainly depend on Jesus either.

 

[BSM1]

Why did He do that?

He wanted Cain to suffer a life of toil and misery rather than a quick merciful death.
BTW do not confuse justice with revenge.

 

[Estro Felino]

He wanted Cain to suffer a life of toil and misery rather than a quick merciful death.
BTW do not confuse justice with revenge.

Well...Jesus' resurrection means that we all can resurrect from misery and evil. And God certainly forgave Cain. God always loves and forgives. But what I meant in the title of the thread, is that his forgiveness is useless, given that justice doesn't depend on him, but on us.
Our salvation depends on us. Cain was given the chance to change life and to become an altruistic loving person, by stopping hating.

I want the salvation of all the people of the world. Salvation which doesn't depend on me, nor on God. It depends on them. So if they don't want to change life, I can't help it.

 

[Sleeppy]

He wanted Cain to suffer a life of toil and misery rather than a quick merciful death.
BTW do not confuse justice with revenge.

What misery and toil were unique to Cain, in relation to the rest of the population?

 

[Sleeppy]

Is it me who decided to confine Caiaphas to Hell? Who am I ?
Hell is a metaphor: when you die, you are confined to your soul. Do you think that Caiaphas' soul was full of love, compassion and altruism? I don't think so.
If I had to compare his soul to a place, I would imagine a waste arid land
'


If I forgive a murderer, it doesn't mean anything. My forgiveness doesn't save this murderer, if he\she keeps killing.
So their salvation depends on them. And it doesn't certainly depend on Jesus either.

Then how is Caiaphas' life considered sacred? How did Moses, Elisha, and David act against the sanctity of life, killing everyone from fellow Israelites, to the infants and women of Adam's sons scattered across that region? And how were they able to write in the Tanakh, and the prophets, that God had commanded these things? How did the only begotten son of God, called the word of God, speak in vain to forgive- if Isaiah says the word of God is not returned void?