If God forgave everyone, there wouldn't be any justice

[BSM1]

What misery and toil were unique to Cain, in relation to the rest of the population?

Exactly. Those people were ugly.

 

[sojourner]

If God forgave everyone, there wouldn't be any justice

If God forgave everyone, there wouldn't be any need for justice.

 

[Estro Felino]

Then how is Caiaphas' life considered sacred? How did Moses, Elisha, and David act against the sanctity of life, killing everyone from fellow Israelites, to the infants and women of Adam's sons scattered across that region? And how were they able to write in the Tanakh, and the prophets, that God had commanded these things? How did the only begotten son of God, called the word of God, speak in vain to forgive- if Isaiah says the word of God is not returned void?

Well...Jesus said: turn the other cheek. If a person kills another person, we are not supposed to kill the murderer in question. Because if we do so, we turn the perpetrator into a victim.
If we leave the perpetrator alive, they can repent and change life.

so...Jesus showed us that it is always better to be a victim than a perpetrator

 

[idav]

Well...Protestants often say that believing in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is what saves us. This is not true - I believe- because merits are personal. Jesus had his own merits and nobody can steal them from him.
If you want to save yourself, earn your salvation through your own merits.
That's the sense of live: to create our own merits which are emblem of our creativity and uniqueness.
So God can't and doesn't forgive anyone. The perpetrators will go to Hell, as well as the victims to Heaven. And there s nothing that God can do about it.
I guess that's what the crucifixion is for: to show us it is better to be a victim (like Jesus) than a perpetrator (like Caiaphas), because in the afterlife the victims will be the winners.

How does justice work without it being revenge and generally unloving, unaccepting?

 

[Estro Felino]

How does justice work without it being revenge and generally unloving, unaccepting?

You can call it revenge, if you like. Revenge in ancient Greek was translated Dikisis. The word Diki means justice, so as you see, there is no much difference.

well...just one question; who forces you to do Evil?
who forces you to hurt your neighbor? Nobody
if you want peace for eternity, don't hurt anyone. I don't think it's difficult. But it's very weird what you say. It's like you said that a perpetrator gives hate and intolerance, but wants love and comprehension in return.

 

[idav]

well...just one question; who forces you to do Evil?
who forces you to hurt your neighbor? Nobody
if you want peace for eternity, don't hurt anyone. I don't think it's difficult. But it's very weird what you say. It's like you said that a perpetrator gives hate and intolerance, but wants love and comprehension in return.

Of course but that doesn't mean I want someone or something inflicting revenge on mine or loved ones behalf? Are we not to love our neighbors and enemies?

 

[idav]

Here is another question. If I forgive my enemy who inflicted suffering on me, should god forgive too?

 

[Estro Felino]

Here is another question. If I forgive my enemy who inflicted suffering on me, should god forgive too?

If a person hates you, you can forgive them.
God is forgiveness, of course. But given that there is free will, each person is free to hate and to hurt their neighbor. In fact, even if you forgive this person, they will probably keep hating you. So this person is probably doomed to damnation, even if you want to save them.
And there's nothing God can do about it. I used a wrong expression when I said that God doesn't forgive. God is forgiveness. But God's forgiveness doesn't save us.
Because if you keep hating, you will be trapped in that hate in the afterlife.
That's what I mean by justice. You are imprisoned in your own soul, when you die.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

But I am happy because he's suffering spiritual pain and suffering for eternity. He's now trapped in the eternal prison of his own hatred and wickedness. For eternity. That's what makes me incredibly happy and satisfied.

Indeed, there seems to be a large contigent of Christians who hold such hypocritical views.

 

[Estro Felino]

Indeed, there seems to be a large contigent of Christians who hold such hypocritical views.

Who forced Videla to kill and torture lots of innocent people?
Who forces people to hurt the neighbor?

It's funny how the perpetrators give hatred but expect mercy

Juts one anecdote: a group of students were kidnapped, tortured and killed just because they went to ask for the bolletino estudiantil, a student card to get discounts.

 

[Sleeppy]

Well...Jesus said: turn the other cheek. If a person kills another person, we are not supposed to kill the murderer in question. Because if we do so, we turn the perpetrator into a victim.
If we leave the perpetrator alive, they can repent and change life.

so...Jesus showed us that it is always better to be a victim than a perpetrator

I agree. But then, I'm not understanding your position on justice. By saying turn the other cheek; "not to resist the evil", Jesus negates justice with forgiveness and humility, to the point of death. Jesus vindicated Judas, and those crucifying him (all flesh), according to the word of God. Satan is the personification of ignorance, or lack in ability.

Hosea 4

Cut off have been My people for lack of knowledge, Because thou knowledge hast rejected, I reject thee from being priest to Me, And thou forgettest the law of thy God, I forget thy sons, I also!

Matthew 5

'Ye heard that it was said: Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and shalt hate thine enemy; but I -- I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those cursing you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those accusing you falsely, and persecuting you, that ye may be sons of your Father in the heavens, because His sun He doth cause to rise on evil and good, and He doth send rain on righteous and unrighteous. 'For, if ye may love those loving you, what reward have ye? do not also the tax-gatherers the same? and if ye may salute your brethren only, what do ye abundant? do not also the tax-gatherers so? ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who [is] in the heavens is perfect.'

The entire point of Jesus' message is not that we should have any self-righteousness, condemning people to hell for eternity, but that it is our direct obligation to reform our neighbors by blessing, and by prayer, and by examples of humility. Hell is not something reserved for the dead; it is apparent on Earth. Neither do we say the kingdom of heaven is located anywhere, or achieved after death, because it is located everywhere, and resulting from "I Am", being existence and life itself.

Matthew 19

And lo, one having come near, said to him, 'Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have life age-during? 'And he said to him, 'Why me dost thou call good? no one [is] good except One -- God; but if thou dost will to enter into the life, keep the commands.'

It is not good to do as you are doing, by calling yourself the source of your goodness. This is idolatry.

 

[idav]

Who forced Videla to kill and torture lots of innocent people?
Who forces people to hurt the neighbor?

What forces you to hate as much as said perpetrator?

It's funny how the perpetrators give hatred but expect mercy

Dont we all.

 

[Sleeppy]

Exactly. Those people were ugly.

Ok. What misery and toil did Cain experience that you have not?

 

[idav]

If a person hates you, you can forgive them.
God is forgiveness, of course. But given that there is free will, each person is free to hate and to hurt their neighbor. In fact, even if you forgive this person, they will probably keep hating you. So this person is probably doomed to damnation, even if you want to save them.
And there's nothing God can do about it. I used a wrong expression when I said that God doesn't forgive. God is forgiveness. But God's forgiveness doesn't save us.
Because if you keep hating, you will be trapped in that hate in the afterlife.
That's what I mean by justice. You are imprisoned in your own soul, when you die.

God can forgive as I have forgiven or as his son forgave those who persecuted him.

Your not saying the same thing here. A killer will forgive themselves and not be in a personal hell that he created for others. Justice is an infliction from another agent. What you describe is karma which I can kinda jive with, everyone gets theirs, I do believe that for the most part.

 

[Estro Felino]

What forces you to hate as much as said perpetrator?
.

I don't hate him. It's him who hates me.
Because a person who is capable of torturing and killing people, doesn't love anyone. They hate the entire mankind.

If I hated him, I would want him to suffer what his victims suffered.
And yet I hope he had a painless death.
But I am happy that the eternal remorse is eating him alive in the afterlife, because it's just spiritual suffering. This is justice. Who forced him to do evil?
He had freewill
he didn't repent. he kept saying that the end justifies the means

 

[Estro Felino]

What you describe is karma which I can kinda jive with, everyone gets theirs, I do believe that for the most part.

Precisely. In fact hell, heaven and purgatory don't explain well what the afterlife is. They are just metaphors. Karma can explain it better, because the afterlife is neither a punishment, nor an award.
It all depends on what you are and what you have done. It doesn't depend on an external agent, as you rightly said

 

[Estro Felino]

It is not good to do as you are doing, by calling yourself the source of your goodness. This is idolatry.

Well...I respect your belief. But given that we were given free will by God, we actually are the source of our own goodness.
And we have the right to be self-righteous. Because goodness can be expressed in infinite multiple forms, given that humans are all unrepeatable and unique.
So you are free whatever you like, and whatever you like will be good.
Evil is when you hurt someone. So you are free to do whatever you like, as long as you don't hurt anyone.

actually we are autonomous from God. We can forgive anyone and love anyone...but each person decides their afterlife.

 

[averageJOE]

I can give you an example. One year ago, Argentinian dictator J R Videla died of old age in jail. He was a murderer, responsible for the death of thousands of desaparecidos and he never repented.

That's the problem with the christian belief system right there.

If this guy DID repent he would have been forgiven and allowed into heaven. Never mind the thousands of people he killed, as long as he repents and accepts jesus he will be saved.

According to the bible, the ONLY sin that is unforgivable is not believing. One can live a great, full filling life being loved, loving people, but if he just happens to not believe...doomed.

But hey...at least the serial killers and rapists who repent will get saved right?

 

[sojourner]

It's funny how the perpetrators give hatred but expect mercy

It's funny how the victims expect vengeance but get forgiveness.

 

[Estro Felino]

According to the bible, the ONLY sin that is unforgivable is not believing. One can live a great, full filling life being loved, loving people, but if he just happens to not believe...doomed.

well...that's what Protestants say. I am a Catholic and, even a radical one, believing in Pelagian theology.
I believe that faith is absolutely irrelevant and useless for salvation. So even Atheists can save themselves, if they are loving altruistic people.

This Videla was a Catholic. He went to mass and once he officially met the Pope. Do you think that these things saved him? I don't
If you are a person filled with hatred, you can never reach the place where all the loving people are (heaven).