If God is evil...

[Greygon]

...would you still worship him/her/them to try to get to heaven/paradise?

Or would you reject them as an evil being(s)?

The reason I ask is because every now and then I talk to theists who -- upon being asked about genocides and wicked, terrible things in some holy text or another -- basically just shrug and basically say "Yeah, God is wrathful. So?"

It always throws me for a loop because I want to say, "And you worship this guy? Why?!"

So, if God is evil -- if God is a vindictive, petty tyrant crybaby of a god that murders people to show the world how awesome he/she is like apparently some people believe he is -- would you still worship him?

For those of you who DO think God is wrathful and vindictive (and what I would call petty), why do you worship such a wicked being? If you believe God is wrathful and all that and DON'T worship him, do you ever worry he's going to lay the smack down on you?

IF God was evil, unless I also was evil I would not worship him. However, unlike many atheists who rely on the argument from evil, the existence of God as evil would not cause me to disbelieve in his existence. In fact, it would seem that not believing in an evil omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being could have dire consequences.

Have you ever thought about the relationship of the word "importance" to its root, "import"? What is it that is imported in order to make a thing important? We do we have to "bring in"?

I think that is a good observation. What I find is that most atheists seem ti import significant elements of a Judeo-Christian worldview into their beliefs while denying the basis of the world view. It makes for a really disjointed philosophy.

 

[sandandfoam]

If you found that the creator-god of the universe were a petty tyrant such as that, would you still worship it?

No. Because as I understand God, it would not be God.

 

[sandandfoam]

Let's say that your god descended and demanded that a thousand babies be boiled alive to appease him.

But we can't say that because if we do we're not talking about my God. We'd be talking about your god that you don't believe in.

 

[ellenjanuary]

I think that is a good observation. What I find is that most atheists seem to import significant elements of a Judeo-Christian worldview into their beliefs while denying the basis of the world view. It makes for a really disjointed philosophy.

I hear that. Atheists accuse believers of picking and choosing scripture, even as they do their own picking and choosing.

 

[jmvizanko]

But we can't say that because if we do we're not talking about my God. We'd be talking about your god that you don't believe in.

No, he's saying what if your god hypothetically did that? And how can you know he wouldn't given that nobody can understand an infinite mind, or so I've been told. Because, personally, I wouldn't put it past YOUR god to do this.

 

[jmvizanko]

What I find is that most atheists seem ti import significant elements of a Judeo-Christian worldview into their beliefs while denying the basis of the world view. It makes for a really disjointed philosophy.

Can you give an example?

 

[sandandfoam]

I wouldn't put it past YOUR god to do this.

Really? Care to tell me more about my God?
I am convinced that when I speak of God I am talking about myself. I suspect the same is true of others.

 

[jmvizanko]

Really? Care to tell me more about my God?
I am convinced that when I speak of God I am talking about myself. I suspect the same is true of others.

God sent bears to tear apart forty-two children, who made fun of his prophet for being bald:

"While he [Elisha] was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying 'Go away, baldhead! Go away baldhead!' When he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys." (2 Kings 2:223-24 NRSV)

That's not very far off from the hypothetical at hand.

 

[sandandfoam]

God sent bears to tear apart forty-two children, who made fun of his prophet for being bald:

"While he [Elisha] was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying 'Go away, baldhead! Go away baldhead!' When he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys." (2 Kings 2:223-24 NRSV)

That's not very far off from the hypothetical at hand.

You might as well quote scooby-doo at me. I do not accept that God is trapped in a Bible. I think that the Bible is about as historical as the Odyssey.
As I said previously I believe that when I talk about God I am talking about myself. From my perspective what you posted speaks of you - if you want to create a bogeyman to not believe in I have no problem with that. But to claim that your non God bogeyman is in fact my God is a bit daft.

 

[Eliot Wild]

IF God was evil, unless I also was evil I would not worship him. However, unlike many atheists who rely on the argument from evil, the existence of God as evil would not cause me to disbelieve in his existence. In fact, it would seem that not believing in an evil omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being could have dire consequences.

You and I have had sharply different experiences with atheists, or so it appears. I have actually never met an atheist who finds it impossible to believe in God because of the existence of evil. Not a single one. However, I have met many atheists who find it impossible to believe in certain versions of God because of the inconsistency of character the existence of evil often creates.

I think that is a good observation. What I find is that most atheists seem ti import significant elements of a Judeo-Christian worldview into their beliefs while denying the basis of the world view. It makes for a really disjointed philosophy.

Could you give an example? Again, what I see from 'most atheists', at least those that speak the English Language which I've had the ability to understand, is a rejection of Judeo-Christian versions of God because those versions are the most prevalent and invasive in their everyday lives.

And so, while I obviously can't speak for the author of the OP, it seems to me that, mostly, when atheists challenge aspects of Judeo-Christian doctrine, especially ontological plausability, they are certainly not 'importing significant elements of that worldview into their beliefs'. They are, indeed and conversely, challenging those significant elements because of inconsistencies contained therein. Or so it seems to me.

But perhaps I merely misunderstand what you're saying. What 'significant elements' do you believe atheists 'import' into their worldviews while denying the basis of those beliefs?

 

[waitasec]

IF God was evil, unless I also was evil I would not worship him. However, unlike many atheists who rely on the argument from evil, the existence of God as evil would not cause me to disbelieve in his existence. In fact, it would seem that not believing in an evil omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being could have dire consequences.

and so would believing...denying your ability to think for your self.

I think that is a good observation. What I find is that most atheists seem ti import significant elements of a Judeo-Christian worldview into their beliefs while denying the basis of the world view. It makes for a really disjointed philosophy.

which are?

do you think the jews were killing themselves to the point god told them they had to stop? 'all right people, thou shall not kill your neighbor, but it's ok to commit genocide and rape little girls.'

 

[McBell]

No. Because as I understand God, it would not be God.

Does this mean that you would deny gods existence if god does not measure up to YOUR "understanding" of god?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

...would you still worship him/her/them to try to get to heaven/paradise?

Or would you reject them as an evil being(s)?

The reason I ask is because every now and then I talk to theists who -- upon being asked about genocides and wicked, terrible things in some holy text or another -- basically just shrug and basically say "Yeah, God is wrathful. So?"

It always throws me for a loop because I want to say, "And you worship this guy? Why?!"

So, if God is evil -- if God is a vindictive, petty tyrant crybaby of a god that murders people to show the world how awesome he/she is like apparently some people believe he is -- would you still worship him?

For those of you who DO think God is wrathful and vindictive (and what I would call petty), why do you worship such a wicked being? If you believe God is wrathful and all that and DON'T worship him, do you ever worry he's going to lay the smack down on you?

Well, I suppose some of us live in a world, and have a belief system, that involves more dire consequences than you like to believe.

 

[sandandfoam]

Does this mean that you would deny gods existence if god does not measure up to YOUR "understanding" of god?

To me, everything I perceive is the product of my mind - so for me there is only my understanding of God.

 

[McBell]

To me, everything I perceive is the product of my mind - so for me there is only my understanding of God.

That makes sense, but it does not really answer my question.

 

[sandandfoam]

That makes sense, but it does not really answer my question.

The straight answer is 'yes'.
But it needs to be qualified by the above to convey my position accurately.

 

[McBell]

The straight answer is 'yes'.
But it needs to be qualified by the above to convey my position accurately.

Fair enough

 

[Greygon]

Can you give an example?

You and I have had sharply different experiences with atheists, or so it appears. I have actually never met an atheist who finds it impossible to believe in God because of the existence of evil. Not a single one. However, I have met many atheists who find it impossible to believe in certain versions of God because of the inconsistency of character the existence of evil often creates.

So let me get this right, you are asserting that there are atheists who don't believe in certain versions of God based on the argument from the existence of evil? Well, as you say, we may have vastly different experiences with atheists, however, the formulation I most hear from many atheists is "I cannot believe in a God that would allow evil." Perhaps I just happen to experience the minority of them the majority of the time.

Could you give an example? Again, what I see from 'most atheists', at least those that speak the English Language which I've had the ability to understand, is a rejection of Judeo-Christian versions of God because those versions are the most prevalent and invasive in their everyday lives.

This obviously allows that you can ignore any difference in opinion since you would only have to assert, "I could not understand them." Kind of a comical "out" in the discussion, would you not agree?

And so, while I obviously can't speak for the author of the OP, it seems to me that, mostly, when atheists challenge aspects of Judeo-Christian doctrine, especially ontological plausability, they are certainly not 'importing significant elements of that worldview into their beliefs'. They are, indeed and conversely, challenging those significant elements because of inconsistencies contained therein. Or so it seems to me.

I am not aware of an over arching "Judeo-Christian doctrine". If there is such a thing, it would be interesting to read about it. There is a Judeo-Christian worldview, which is what I referenced in my previous post. This potential error in your understanding, so it seems to me, could introduce significant inconsistency in the analysis of your observations, would you agree?

But perhaps I merely misunderstand what you're saying. What 'significant elements' do you believe atheists 'import' into their worldviews while denying the basis of those beliefs?

Your response would pretty much confirm that you misunderstood, but lets see if I can help you along. By what would an atheist use to determine what is "evil" apart from at least a theistic basis? Also, any argument against the God of the bible presupposes a certain reading of the Judeo-Christian scriptures, would you not determine that would constitute an importing of at least some elements of the specific viewpoint? The Judeo-Christian worldview carries a commitment that the scriptures communicates a truth about God. What I most often find is that atheists must import the most fundamentalist viewpoints into their discussions about God to prop up their own straw man arguments.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

...would you still worship him/her/them to try to get to heaven/paradise?

Or would you reject them as an evil being(s)?

The reason I ask is because every now and then I talk to theists who -- upon being asked about genocides and wicked, terrible things in some holy text or another -- basically just shrug and basically say "Yeah, God is wrathful. So?"

It always throws me for a loop because I want to say, "And you worship this guy? Why?!"

So, if God is evil -- if God is a vindictive, petty tyrant crybaby of a god that murders people to show the world how awesome he/she is like apparently some people believe he is -- would you still worship him?

For those of you who DO think God is wrathful and vindictive (and what I would call petty), why do you worship such a wicked being? If you believe God is wrathful and all that and DON'T worship him, do you ever worry he's going to lay the smack down on you?

Seeing that god is nothing more than a reflection of the personality of the person perceiving god, those that have no problem with god being evil are those who have no problem with themselves being evil.

 

[truseeker]

When you go to school the teacher makes rules like no talking and raise your hand to ask a question. These rules are for the good of the whole class and anyone who does not obey gets punished. When you live in a city the city makes rules such as no parking on this street or speed limit 25 mph. These rules are for the good of everyone living in the city and anyone who does not obey gets punished. God also has rules. For some of those rules the penalty is death. The rules are for the good of everyone on earth and those who do not obey deserve to be punished.