If God is Omniscient, Isn't Everything Determined?

[ManTimeForgot]

In either being able to have power over the choices you make in the future you would have to not know what the answer is. At best omnipotence would give someone the ability to actually experience every possible choice but at the same time omniscience should give what the final answer is even with all the interventions considered. In short you can't know your future and expect to have any control over it, one of the omnis needs to go.

You are still thinking like a linear, unipresent being. This restriction is voided for an omnipotent being. I am actually not convinced that omnipresence, omniscience, or any other "omni" is not in some was an ancillary characteristic of omnipotence.


If I am omnipresent both spatially and temporally, then I have not lost any faculty of decision making (not that I think decision making can be anything but conserved for a being which has perfect decision making capabilities; if it was a perfect decision then it will always be perfect no matter what changes since your omniscient self predicted everything that would happen in the interim) because I am equally present in past, present, and future simultaneously. The notion of "time" loses any and all meaning for this being.


This actually goes back to a thread I tried to start up a while back http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/theological-concepts/82272-immunity-contradiction.html I am not unconvinced that our misconceptions about omnipotence (and the other omnis) are largely anything other than a failure of imagination. We are being asked to properly conceive of something which is wholly infinite in some way (which includes whatever consequences this faculty has), and this just isn't possible for one infinity let alone several in conjunction.


Transposition, multiformity (I can adopt multiple forms simultaneously), multi-compositionality (I can possess multiple distinct compositions simultaneously) multi-location (I exist definitively in multiple places simultaneously), paralocation (I have no definite location), and the list just goes on and on. Some of the above might seem contradictory, but those are predicated on hidden assumptions of our own. Introduce retrocausality (future causing the past) and suddenly transposition doesn't seem contradictory. Introduce timelessness and multi-location and paralocation don't seem contradictory. Multi-location allows for multiple forms and multiple compositions without seeming contradictory.

And that is all just off the top of my head.

MTF

 

[Willamena]

If I am omnipresent both spatially and temporally, then I have not lost any faculty of decision making (not that I think decision making can be anything but conserved for a being which has perfect decision making capabilities; if it was a perfect decision then it will always be perfect no matter what changes since your omniscient self predicted everything that would happen in the interim) because I am equally present in past, present, and future simultaneously. The notion of "time" loses any and all meaning for this being.

If you are omnipotent, such that everything (matter, thoughts, events, stuff) you are present of is already a done deal, what decision is there left to make?

 

[idav]

Transposition, multiformity (I can adopt multiple forms simultaneously), multi-compositionality (I can possess multiple distinct compositions simultaneously) multi-location (I exist definitively in multiple places simultaneously), paralocation (I have no definite location), and the list just goes on and on. Some of the above might seem contradictory, but those are predicated on hidden assumptions of our own. Introduce retrocausality (future causing the past) and suddenly transposition doesn't seem contradictory. Introduce timelessness and multi-location and paralocation don't seem contradictory. Multi-location allows for multiple forms and multiple compositions without seeming contradictory.

And that is all just off the top of my head.

MTF

Those aren't contradictory. Omnipresence is not contradictory with Omnipotence or Omniscience. It is Omnipotence and Omniscience that are contradictory and one has to be downgraded for the other to have Omni use. I've argued that Omnipotence also means that he has the ability to hold back power but at that point he is no longer omnipotent like if an omnipotent being created a being more powerful than himself.

If you are omnipotent, such that everything (matter, thoughts, events, stuff) you are present of is already a done deal, what decision is there left to make?

At that point what would god have power over if he can't change an event? For an omnipotent being events should not be static cause then the being would know the event would happen without having the ability to change it even if he wanted to. Downgrade the all knowing part and it leaves wiggle room for the being to be fully omnipotent so that the events that transpire are due to will not forethought.

 

[Awoon]

God got bored by its' omniscience so it wished itself a suprise and there you are with all the senses of duality.

 

[crystalonyx]

Let's say I am all knowing of what would happen, and I have to throw away a pop bottle, although I know there is a wasp's nest in there, and the next person who will come will be strolling her 2 month old baby boy, giggling at the wind. She will need to throw a candy wrapper away, but once they open it the baby will get stung and die, being allergic to beestings, and the woman will be trying to escape the swarm.

Am I held responsible for the child's death? Or was it the freewill of the mother who had opened it up with her child there?


The same works for God and the nature of evil. If God knows everything that will happen if he makes the universe doing this and that, then he also knows that evil will happen, should he be held responsible for the evil of the world in that case?

An omniscient god is helpless, because it knows all future actions, including its own. This fact makes the existence of any omniscient being impossible.

 

[espo35]

Trying to use mere words to define that which we cannot begin to understand seems futile, to me.

It would be as ants in an antfarm, as they journeyed through your fingerprint in the sand, trying to extrapolate what human love feels like. What they are seeking is too great for their minds to comprehend.

 

[Willamena]

At that point what would god have power over if he can't change an event? For an omnipotent being events should not be static cause then the being would know the event would happen without having the ability to change it even if he wanted to. Downgrade the all knowing part and it leaves wiggle room for the being to be fully omnipotent so that the events that transpire are due to will not forethought.

Why would god need power over himself?

 

[Random]

The real horror is that everything is determined when there is no omniscient god.

 

[Skwim]

The real horror is that everything is determined when there is no omniscient god.

Why is this a horror?

 

[Copernicus]

The concept of omniscience implies that knowledge itself is quantifiable and determinate. I do not believe that it is either. It is a relationship between an experience and a context.

 

[idav]

The real horror is that everything is determined when there is no omniscient god.

Predictability is what makes omniscience possible.

 

[idav]

The concept of omniscience implies that knowledge itself is quantifiable and determinate. I do not believe that it is either. It is a relationship between an experience and a context.

Knowing doesn't require context.

 

[idav]

Why would god need power over himself?

If I was a chemist I'd be careful and not try and blow myself up.

 

[Copernicus]

Knowing doesn't require context.

Yes it does. Knowledge is a belief that is presupposed to be true, and truth can only be established with respect to a situational context.

 

[idav]

Yes it does. Knowledge is a belief that is presupposed to be true, and truth can only be established with respect to a situational context.

It only requires context when your trying to convey the knowledge to someone else who isn't omniscient. Being all knowing shouldn't have much use for the trivialities.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

Those aren't contradictory. Omnipresence is not contradictory with Omnipotence or Omniscience. It is Omnipotence and Omniscience that are contradictory and one has to be downgraded for the other to have Omni use. I've argued that Omnipotence also means that he has the ability to hold back power but at that point he is no longer omnipotent like if an omnipotent being created a being more powerful than himself.

You actually haven't shown how Omnipotence and Omniscience are contradictory. If an omnipotent being is also omnipresent or timeless, then it is a useless notion to ask if it can "change its mind." There isn't any contradiction because you can't actually formulate a sensible question in the first place?

Asking if an omniscient being can change its mind even via omnipotence results in an answer of "Yes," but the answer doesn't mean anything to us because the output always remains the same; perfection decision making is perfect decision making period. In short: all questions and answers are absurdity.

MTF

 

[idav]

You actually haven't shown how Omnipotence and Omniscience are contradictory. If an omnipotent being is also omnipresent or timeless, then it is a useless notion to ask if it can "change its mind." There isn't any contradiction because you can't actually formulate a sensible question in the first place?

Asking if an omniscient being can change its mind even via omnipotence results in an answer of "Yes," but the answer doesn't mean anything to us because the output always remains the same; perfection decision making is perfect decision making period. In short: all questions and answers are absurdity.

MTF

I don't know what questions has to do with it. There are no questions for an omni being there is only it's will. All powerful would certainly mean doing whatever you want and there is nothing to ask. I'm asking question in an attempt to convey something that you feel is beyond our mortal minds. Can an all knowing being do(will) other than what it knows? If the answer is yes then it limits knowing and if the answer is no then it limits its free will.

 

[Copernicus]

It only requires context when your trying to convey the knowledge to someone else who isn't omniscient. Being all knowing shouldn't have much use for the trivialities.

I was speaking of the kind of relationship that words like "belief" and "knowledge" represent. Omniscience is defined in terms of knowledge as we conventionally understand it, and we understand it as a relationship between a proposition and a context that the proposition is applied to. To say that a being is omniscient is to say that that being knows the truth of all propositions that can be applied to the context of reality.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

I don't know what questions has to do with it. There are no questions for an omni being there is only it's will. All powerful would certainly mean doing whatever you want and there is nothing to ask. I'm asking question in an attempt to convey something that you feel is beyond our mortal minds. Can an all knowing being do(will) other than what it knows? If the answer is yes then it limits knowing and if the answer is no then it limits its free will.

The answer to both aspects of your question is Yes And No. It is absurdity; your question isn't even formulated in a way that makes sense.

Can an all knowing being will other than what it knows? What is that which other than what it knows? An omniscient being can't not know anything.

Can an omnipotent being do something other than what it is capable of? What is that which other than what it is capable of? It is capable of everything.


And that is the crux of the issue. Even if you thought there were a contradiction a Supremely Omnipotent being "merely" has to suspend logic and *poof* the contradiction doesn't mean anything in terms of whether or not something is "possible." Can we understand what this means? Nope; not even close.


MTF

 

[idav]

The answer to both aspects of your question is Yes And No. It is absurdity; your question isn't even formulated in a way that makes sense.

Can an all knowing being will other than what it knows? What is that which other than what it knows? An omniscient being can't not know anything.

Can an omnipotent being do something other than what it is capable of? What is that which other than what it is capable of? It is capable of everything.


And that is the crux of the issue. Even if you thought there were a contradiction a Supremely Omnipotent being "merely" has to suspend logic and *poof* the contradiction doesn't mean anything in terms of whether or not something is "possible." Can we understand what this means? Nope; not even close.


MTF

You don't have to suspend logic for it to work. An all powerful being has the power to use it or not. If he is allowing us freedom then he would be holding back his own power. I'd argue that isn't all powerful anymore but since it would be a choice it's debatable. Not like he couldn't just take it back just as easy.