"if God talks to you, you have schizophrenia"

[Heyo]

I realize that these other things go along with a pagan religious orientation. However, I would not call clairvoyance or "scrying" magic--they fall more into the category of using one's intuition. I would also throw dowsing into a category like divination, not magic.

When I studied magic in the university, it was presented to me as trying to effect reality either by representational imagery (this doll looks like the woman, so whatever I do to the doll is done to the woman) or by contagion (I have hair and fingernails of the person -- if I destroy them, it will destroy the person).

We should put this fight over definitions to rest and get to the real point. It wasn't even about the word "magic" (you brought that into the discussion) but about "superstition" (for which you also seem to use a different definition than @Aupmanyav and me). Can we agree that we are talking about "people who believe in mechanisms that are not backed by scientific explanation"?
(Find a word for them. I call them "irrational", "superstitious" and "believers in magic".)

 

[IndigoChild5559]

We should put this fight over definitions to rest and get to the real point. It wasn't even about the word "magic" (you brought that into the discussion) but about "superstition" (for which you also seem to use a different definition than @Aupmanyav and me). Can we agree that we are talking about "people who believe in mechanisms that are not backed by scientific explanation"?
(Find a word for them. I call them "irrational", "superstitious" and "believers in magic".)

While I might say in general that science is the opposite of superstion, there are many things people believe in that are not superstitions and are also not shown by science. For example, science has nothing to say on morality, but moral beliefs are not superstitions. So while I more or less agree with you, I just want it flagged has having possible exceptions.

su·per·sti·tion
/ˌso͞opərˈstiSH(ə)n/
noun

1. excessively credulous belief in and reverence for supernatural beings.
   "he dismissed the ghost stories as mere superstition"
2. a widely held but unjustified belief in supernatural causation leading to certain consequences of an action or event, or a practice based on such a belief.

 

[Heyo]

su·per·sti·tion
/ˌso͞opərˈstiSH(ə)n/

noun

1. excessively credulous belief in and reverence for supernatural beings.
   "he dismissed the ghost stories as mere superstition"
2. a widely held but unjustified belief in supernatural causation leading to certain consequences of an action or event, or a practice based on such a belief.

So we do actually agree on the use of superstitious for people who hear "the voice of god"?
They are excessively credulous and have an unjustified belief in supernatural causation.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So we do actually agree on the use of superstitious for people who hear "the voice of god"?
They are excessively credulous and have an unjustified belief in supernatural causation.

No, I would not call something that 28% of the population does "excessively credulous."

 

[Heyo]

No, I would not call something that 28% of the population does "excessively credulous."

But we do agree on "unjustified belief in supernatural causation"?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

No, I would not call something that 28% of the population does "excessively credulous."

Why should the proportion of the population make any difference at all.
At one time 100% of the population believed that the Sun and moon rotated around the earth and that the world was flat.
This was certainly the case for those at the time the Bible was written.

They believed in all sorts of irrational things. They certainly did not consider them selves to be credulous.
the supernatural had an equal place in their thoughts, as the rational. one was as real to them as the other.

Today, except for religion, we have largely consigned superstition and the magical to the irrational.
And Religion is now a pretty low%

 

[rational experiences]

Spiritual is a human ability of witnessing phenomena. And aware of various conditions we can think and theory.

To pose theories about any choice is stated as a science which is the philosophy of presence or spiritual.

The reason we named it spiritual as it is not science. Yet we can still pose theories just like philosophy does. Subjects.

Science says it's status is to know everything. Yet their topics related to studying presence. Then theorising was about non presence.

Spirit is seen as presence.

Science inferred it owned a theory.

Yet presence never owned a theory. It is just subjects of discussions.

To change presence is the practice of science inventive.

Invention exists nowhere else. Presence does.

Why we who see phenomena own a status who cares what you claim science. With that exact meaning.

In science invention science says my science functions. Congratulations inventor.

Still your ideas about spirit own no scientific quanta. It was science who tried to give it quanta. So now you ridicule everyone.

Pretty rude of you actually.

 

[Kenny]

I probably would.
But I first like to know how such a conversation goes. Can you please describe it to us? What were the circumstances? (E.g. are you sure you didn't just nod off and dream it?) Who initiated the conversation? Did you really have the sensation of hearing (opposed to imagining a conversation)? What was the topic and how did the conversation go (short transcript)?

And how do you know you weren't conversing with a "lying spirit"?

He uses various ways. Here is one way - this one was more Him to me (I had just one year of having given my life to Jesus)

I was working at a grocery chain (Winn Dixie) - all night stocking. I was in aisle 6 - canned goods. A good friend of mine, Alex, was in aisle 7 - Cereal aisle and a newbie was on ail 5 - pickles, mayo, ketchup et al. For the sake of using a name, because I don't remember his name, I will call him Joe.

While working I had these thought running through my mind... "Hey Joe, do you know if you are going to Heaven?" and his response was "no".

Then I would ask Alex, "Alex, do you know if you are going to Heaven?" He responded "Yes!"

Next question, "Joe, do you know why Alex knows and you don'? Joe would answer, "No"... and I would go to aisle 5 explain why Jesus died for his sins and wants to receive him into God family and he would accept Jesus".

Being a newly adopt son in the faith, I asked myself, "Was that God?" and figured out the only way I would find out is if I played it out. I also knew it wasn't a "lying spirit", because it followed the mandate of Jesus to share the Gospel of the Kingdom. My heart was pounding, to be honest, with fear. Finally I mustered enough courage and asked...

Hey Joe, do you know if you are going to Heaven? He responded "No".

I froze, and my heart pounding even harder until I hear a voice from Alex, "KEN, ASK ME". I that point I knew it was God and finished the scenario with Joe accepting Jesus.


On a more direct way and later in years, I had counseled couple on their marriage while the youth were watching a movie. I had left them a mandate, "Now, I just want you to talk to each other and share with each other the good things you have done together in your marriage instead of arguing about the things that are wrong. For a while, just look at the half full glass of water of your union instead of concentrating on the empty part.

I left to tend to the youth and while at the door frame of the youth hall, enjoying the movie, a LOUD voice reverberated in my brain (Not an audible voice from the ear" saying "GO BACK, THEY ARE AT IT AGAIN". The loudness so startled me it cause me to jump and run to the room where the were at and with a raised voice said "I thought I told no NOT to look at the half empty glass".

They fixed that marriage that night and are still married.

 

[PureX]

"if God talks to you, you have schizophrenia"

Yes, but that doesn't mean that God is not talking to you.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Synonyms suggested by dictionary.com:
Superstitious: Credulous, gullible, fearful, apprehensive
Irrational: aberrant, absurd, crazy, foolish, incoherent, insane, preposterous, ridiculous, stupid, unreasonable, unsound, unwise, wrong (leaving out some others)

Morality and ethics relate to society. They belong neither to religion nor to science.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that God is not talking to you.

Yeah, God will still keep talking to these people.

 

[rational experiences]

Science evolved its status its symbolic language. Symbols maths.

Science infers it is creating. Invention is what a man created. He says dimensions and world's. A new world science technology of inventions I create.

Richer than ever even richer than king's or Queens.

Builder of new worlds he says from old ideas about the cosmos and without the cosmos even existing itself. In thesis. I will build it he says by my man knowledge.

To build he says is new thesis new science.

Humans use words to observe all things natural. Gods words human language the spirit self natural.

Are not sciences words.

Science said God must have created with words. As science couldn't find God.

We can commune with God in silence also.

God the eternal is not God the seal of Satan earths hell. That is a different God.

That God is described as an angel only.

So now science says once again I am the victor now I'll force you all to submit to my new world order. Science he says is all there is.

Whilst his machines and UFO status technology burns our brains.

What the new world is. What he means by forcing a new world order when God owner of everything was never new.

So he writes what he says is the only logical answer. Science.

Yet science caused fall out brain irradiation and removed our conscious life and body from living whole and pure. Removed equality and removed our ability to be spiritually rational.

Why a non scientist just an everyday human spoke the truth.

Why science who says God science is irrational is first just a natural human thinker and not a scientist.

As God was never science.

 

[rational experiences]

I never believed in God. I said the light owned a living presence only because meditation enabled a vision of a spiritual being not my image or a human to be seen.

I thought like humans do if spiritual existed how about saving us.

I then gained some advice which I noticed I had never studied nor knew.

As it is advice that motivates change of choice. Humans will.

I researched history books sciences and herbal medical. When given the advice.

When I got brain irradiated I thought I would die. I got comforted and heard father in a native American Indian voice say my name. Speaking to me stating I was his.

I lived.

I have seen spirit and been bodily changed physically by its condition in its owned presence. Can't fake that advice.

You say science knows....but you still study what you believe it was.

Everyday scientists are not studying the occult branch of science is.

Medical science is studying present bodies in their owned forms. So nor are you.

If I say eternal is on the other side of space you scientist can't prove it isn't.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I never believed in God. I said the light owned a living presence only because meditation enabled a vision of a spiritual being not my image or a human to be seen.

I thought like humans do if spiritual existed how about saving us.

I then gained some advice which I noticed I had never studied nor knew.

As it is advice that motivates change of choice. Humans will.

I researched history books sciences and herbal medical. When given the advice.

When I got brain irradiated I thought I would die. I got comforted and heard father in a native American Indian voice say my name. Speaking to me stating I was his.

I lived.

I have seen spirit and been bodily changed physically by its condition in its owned presence. Can't fake that advice.

You say science knows....but you still study what you believe it was.

Everyday scientists are not studying the occult branch of science is.

Medical science is studying present bodies in their owned forms. So nor are you.

If I say eternal is on the other side of space you scientist can't prove it isn't.

The space between the Universes is where we dump all the unknowns. Whether the are true or not, make believe or real. Like a waste bin it has its uses.

 

[rational experiences]

The space between the Universes is where we dump all the unknowns. Whether the are true or not, make believe or real. Like a waste bin it has its uses.

You are just a human born from human sex living on a planet human men named as earth.

You don't own controls in a universe you do however think and control a machine. Maybe now you might realise how possessed a natural human mind status is. As if you are machine conditions.

 

[Muffled]

Consider this quote:

View attachment 54241

To what extent is this statement true???

I say to a very great extent

If I were to come onto RF and tell everyone that God talks to me I would be considered schizophrenic, and my role on RF would be that of a person who is schizophrenic - I would become Schizophrenic as that is how this community would understand me, including those who routinely talk to God...

I like this quote, there is a lot going on with it

This is what this quote has made me think:

There are socially acceptable ways of experiencing God and that there are other ways, which result in you being considered mentally unwell

It's a matter of normality

And normality is a matter of safety in numbers!

Billions talk to God

Yet only a relatively tiny number of people experience God talking to them

By "talk" I mean "directly communicate" - not literally speaking words at someone

Those who get to decide what is healthy or unhealthy - what is spiritual experience or a psychotic episode - always try to make their way of experiencing reality the only healthy one, and medicalise other ways of experiencing the same reality

The religious establishment and the medical establishment stand united in this, in a bizarre alliance of science and faith that is very telling of the true social function of both these institutions!

Of course, the experience of God communicating with you can be a symptom of a severe mental illness

However, if you believe that God exists and listens to you then I don't think you should write off all such reported experiences so very quickly. I don't think that is a huge leap to make!

I think there is a wealth of anecdotal evidence that God communicates directly with some people in such a way that others would consider them unwell, although I concede that the majority of such cases are likely to be some kind of mental illness

And I mean direct experience - not an awesome sense of seeing God at work in the natural world or having an amazing euphoric spiritual experience whilst attending church, and so on

By "direct experience" I mean "communication"!

And by "talks to you" I mean "communicates with you" in a more general sense

Just because some such experiences can be put down to mental ill health doesn't mean all of them can!

I'll say this to any person who routinely talks to God: Just because he doesn't directly communicate back to you in particular doesn't mean he doesn't communicate with anyone!

I don't think you should be so quick to dismiss

Or should at least keep an open mind...

And for the record, I no longer believe that God personally communicates with me, as I once did. But that's another story...

According to Society:​

1. A one-way direct line to God = prayer = normal and healthy​
2. A two-way direct line to God = schizophrenia = abnormal and bad​

That is what I think this quote can be boiled down to!

I think that psychiatry and the religious establishment want humankind to dismiss those to whom God speaks

I think they want to silence God, as they cannot control what God has to say in the same way that they can control what people believe and what God may or may not have said in the past - they don't want their monopoly challenging!

They wish to preserve the Status Quo and keep God's new word from human ears:

They are basically putting fingers into the ears of humankind so it cannot hear, and are drowning out the voice of God with hymns and mindless popular music so that any new revelation is rejected, or dismissed, or ignored, or ridiculed...

That's my take on this quote, anyway

Edit: and no, I do not claim to have any new revelation for humankind

I believe the only ones who believe that are the materialistic quasi science people who don't have a clue about spiritual things.

 

[Muffled]

The second season of Joan of Arcadia is about this.
Joan of Arcadia is the show that changed my life. It was a eye-opener.
It is incredibly deep. And they made it because these people do exist. And they are not schizophrenic, but they have the gift.
It is very difficult to explain it how. In Italian I would be able to explain it perfectly.
But what I can say is that it is not schizophrenia.

I believe anyone who doesn't question whether they are really hearing from God or not is not being honest with himself.

 

[Muffled]

I do not think that if you think you hear God speaking to you, there are only two available explanations: A) God is speaking to you or B) You have a mental illness like Schizophrenia.

I'm convinced that for the most part, most people who claim "god is speaking to me" are simply referring to their own internal voice. They haven't figured out yet that your inner voice is coming directly from your own brain and its not supernatural. It is you imagining what you think God would tell you at a given time, not God actually speaking to you inside your brain.

There is a really interesting book called "Why we believe in God(s)" that discusses this and the brain's ability to have these internal imaginary conversations. Pretty fascinating stuff.

Who hasn't been to a job interview, where you are either verbally or internally rehearsing how you are going to respond to the interviewers questions while you are driving to your appointment? Not only can you invent the interviewers voice in your own mind, but you can imagine the question the interviewer is asking, your response, this persons response to your response and your response to this persons response to your response! Pretty sure the interviewer you are imagining is not god, but the concept is the same.

The only difference is the setting. If you are reading the bible, the inner voice immediately becomes god. If you are driving to an interview, the inner voice immediately becomes the interviewer. If you are thinking of your mother, the inner voice immediately becomes your mothers voice in your head.

I'm curious how people are able to tell the difference between an actual god speaking to them, or their own internal voice imaging what god would say?

I wouldn't go that far. There are many people on RF who are delusional about one thing or another and yet rational enough on most things. I would not call these people mentally ill. However believing the wrong thing can cost a person. It would be better for the person to have better beliefs.