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If homosexuality is a choice, why can't I choose to be attracted to men?

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
It is not easy and may not be work for your current relation but if you wished to work at it you could.

I personally believe homosexuality to be natural and a choice; however all my natural feelings I can overpower. The brain is very powerful and can even modify a beating heart so changing who you love is not outside its realm.

Overpowering natural emotions is a long tedious path so you would need to be sure because once going down the path you don't want to waste all that time and find you chose wrong.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
There really are only small differences between men and woman. Some woman are very much like men and some men are very much like women. Sexually they can do the same things to each other abeit different instruments.

Sexual attraction is to a specific type of woman or man. You don't typically like all women or all men. So all you need to do is find out why you are limiting yourself to a certain type and start to expand that type. Eventually the type can expand so far it blurs the line of woman/man and then you should be able to cross the gap.
 

enchanted_one1975

Resident Lycanthrope
For those that assert homosexuality is some sort of conscious decision.. why can't I consciously decide to be sexually attracted to men?
I actually feel better after seeing this thread. All this time I thought you wouldn't date me because of me. Now I know it's just that you haven't caught the gay bug yet. I see now that I must just wait. It takes some longer than it does others. At least we know you are trying. :flirt:
 
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Jeremiah

Well-Known Member
It is not easy and may not be work for your current relation but if you wished to work at it you could.

I personally believe homosexuality to be natural and a choice; however all my natural feelings I can overpower. The brain is very powerful and can even modify a beating heart so changing who you love is not outside its realm.

Overpowering natural emotions is a long tedious path so you would need to be sure because once going down the path you don't want to waste all that time and find you chose wrong.

"The brain is very powerful"

Yes, the brain is very powerful, and you should not assume you have full control over it, because you don't. It is not possible to change from a homosexual into a heterosexual, (it might be possible for a bisexual to focus on only one, you'd have to ask a bisexual). Sexuality may shift and change over time, but I would suggest that someone who appears to change is really just manifesting latent desires.

It is possible for a homosexual to pretend they are heterosexual, maybe even delude themselves into thinking they have changed. They may even suppress their natural sexual urges but that sexual attraction will always be there and the next time they see a hot guy (or girl) shirtless... boing!.

It can be extremely unhealthy to attempt to try and change your sexuality and can backfire with some serious consequences, take it from someone who knows.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
It is not easy and may not be work for your current relation but if you wished to work at it you could.

I personally believe homosexuality to be natural and a choice; however all my natural feelings I can overpower. The brain is very powerful and can even modify a beating heart so changing who you love is not outside its realm.

Overpowering natural emotions is a long tedious path so you would need to be sure because once going down the path you don't want to waste all that time and find you chose wrong.

I've tried. I have made out with guys. It doesn't physically disgust me; but it does nothing for me. I can't make myself become aroused without thinking of women.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I actually feel better after seeing this thread. All this time I thought you wouldn't date me because of me. Now I know it's just that you haven't caught the gay bug yet. I see now that I must just wait. It takes some longer than it does others. At least we know you are trying. :flirt:

First, I would have to fall in love with you; laughable indeed. Secondly, I still can't get attracted to men; though, I am trying.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
First, I would have to fall in love with you; laughable indeed. Secondly, I still can't get attracted to men; though, I am trying.
You have conditioned yourself since your sex drive first developed to be attracted to women, and I'm assuming those around you since childhood have engrained into your mind that it's wrong to be attracted to men. If you had experimented with the same sex at a younger age I believe you would not have a problem finding an attraction to men. It's tough for your brain to get rid of that conditioning right away, but it's not a stretch at all to say that you could. Personally, I think that if you have already experimented with other men and it hasn't done anything for you, then you've already established with yourself that you're not gay. I'm curious as to what led you to want to be attracted to men in the first place though, if that's not too personal to answer.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Obviously, you aren't trying hard enough, Dust1n. Try squinting your eyes and grunting more -- like as if you were making a real effort. It just might work.
 

Jeremiah

Well-Known Member
You have conditioned yourself since your sex drive first developed to be attracted to women, and I'm assuming those around you since childhood have engrained into your mind that it's wrong to be attracted to men. If you had experimented with the same sex at a younger age I believe you would not have a problem finding an attraction to men. It's tough for your brain to get rid of that conditioning right away, but it's not a stretch at all to say that you could. Personally, I think that if you have already experimented with other men and it hasn't done anything for you, then you've already established with yourself that you're not gay. I'm curious as to what led you to want to be attracted to men in the first place though, if that's not too personal to answer.

Maybe if we had a full understanding of sexuality (which we don't) we might be able to influence a persons sexuality during puberty.

Here is good article on the nature of sexual orientation, it seems to me that it is allot more then just "conditioning".


The Brain and Sexual Orientation Researcher Simon LeVay (1991) studied sections
of the hypothalamus taken from deceased heterosexual and homosexual people.
As a gay scientist, LeVay wanted to do “something connected with my gay identity.”
To avoid biasing the results, he did a blind study, not knowing which donors were gay.
For nine months he peered through his microscope at a cell cluster he thought might
be important. Then, one morning, he broke the codes: One cell cluster was reliably
larger in heterosexual men than in women and homosexual men. “I was almost in a
state of shock,” LeVay said (1994). “I took a walk by myself on the cliffs over the
ocean. I sat for half an hour just thinking what this might mean.”
It should not surprise us that brains differ with sexual orientation, a finding confirmed
by a recent discovery that gay men and straight women have brain hemispheres
of similar size, whereas in lesbian women and straight men, the right
hemisphere is larger (Savic & Lindström, 2008). Remember our maxim: Everything
psychological is simultaneously biological. But when do such brain differences begin? At
conception? In the womb? During childhood or adolescence? Does experience produce
these differences? Or is it genes or prenatal hormones (or genes via prenatal
hormones)?
LeVay does not view the hypothalamic center as a sexual orientation center; rather,
he sees it as an important part of the neural pathway engaged in sexual behavior. He
acknowledges that sexual behavior patterns may influence the brain’s anatomy. In
fish, birds, rats, and humans, brain structures vary with experience—including sexual
experience, reports sex researcher Marc Breedlove (1997). But LeVay believes it more
likely that brain anatomy influences sexual orientation. His hunch seems confirmed
by the discovery of a similar hypothalamic difference between the 7 to 10 percent of
male sheep that display same-sex attraction and the 90+ percent attracted to females
(Larkin et al., 2002; Roselli et al., 2002, 2004). Moreover, report University of London
psychologists Qazi Rahman and Glenn Wilson (2003), “the neuroanatomical correlates
of male homosexuality differentiate very early postnatally, if not prenatally.”

Responses to hormone-derived sexual scents also point to a brain difference (Savic
et al., 2005). When straight women are given a whiff of a scent derived from men’s
sweat, their hypothalamus lights up in an area governing sexual arousal. Gay men’s
brains respond similarly to the men’s scent. But straight men’s brains show the
arousal response only to a female hormone derivative. Gays and lesbians similarly
differ from their straight counterparts in other studies of brain responses to sexrelated
sweat odors and to pictures of male and female faces (Kranz & Ishai, 2006;
Martins et al., 2005).

....


Prenatal Hormones and Sexual Orientation Elevated rates of homosexual orientation
in identical and fraternal twins suggest that not just shared genetics but also
a shared prenatal environment may be a factor. In animals and some exceptional
human cases, abnormal prenatal hormone conditions have altered a fetus’ sexual orientation.
German researcher Gunter Dorner (1976, 1988) pioneered research on the
influence of prenatal hormones by manipulating a fetal rat’s exposure to male hormones,
thereby “inverting” its sexual orientation. In other studies, when pregnant
sheep were injected with testosterone during a critical period of fetal development,
their female offspring later showed homosexual behavior (Money, 1987).
A critical period for the human brain’s neural-hormonal control system may exist
between the middle of the second and fifth months after conception (Ellis & Ames,
1987; Gladue, 1990; Meyer-Bahlburg, 1995). Exposure to the hormone levels typically
experienced by female fetuses during this time appears to predispose the person
(whether female or male) to be attracted to males in later life.
http://www.davidmyers.org/davidmyers/assets/Sex-Orient-9e.pdf
 
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Jeremiah

Well-Known Member
Is It Possible To Change One’s Sexual Orientation (“Reparative Therapy”)?
There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of “reparative therapy” as a treatment to change one’s sexual orientation, nor is it included in the APA’s Task Force Report, Treatments of Psychiatric Disorders. More importantly, altering sexual orientation is not an appropriate goal of psychiatric treatment. Some may seek conversion to heterosexuality because of the difficulties that they encounter as a member of a stigmatized group. Clinical experience indicates that those who have integrated their sexual orientation into a positive sense of self-function at a healthier psychological level than those who have not. “Gay affirmative psychotherapy” may be helpful in the coming out process, fostering a positive psychological development and overcoming the effects of stigmatization. A position statement adopted by the Board in December 1998 said:

Sexual Orientation


Based on its review of the studies that met these standards, the Task Force concluded that "[E]nduring change to an individual's sexual orientation is uncommon. The participants in this body of research continued to experience same-sex attractions following SOCE [sexual orientation change efforts] and did not report significant change to other-sex attractions that could be empirically validated, though some showed lessened physiological arousal to all sexual stimuli. Compelling evidence of decreased same-sex sexual behavior and of engagement in sexual behavior with the other sex was rare. Few studies provided strong evidence that any changes produced in laboratory conditions translated to daily life. Thus, the results of scientifically valid research indicate that it is unlikely that individuals will be able to reduce same-sex attractions or increase other-sex sexual attractions through SOCE" (pp. 2-3).
In addition, the Task Force found evidence to indicate that some individuals experienced harm or believed they had been harmed by these interventions. The Task Force report provides a detailed discussion of this topic and an extensive review of relevant research.

Facts About Changing Sexual Orientation
 

dust1n

Zindīq
You have conditioned yourself since your sex drive first developed to be attracted to women, and I'm assuming those around you since childhood have engrained into your mind that it's wrong to be attracted to men.

I haven't denied this sense I was 17.

If you had experimented with the same sex at a younger age I believe you would not have a problem finding an attraction to men.

I did... I still have the same problem. Is there a certain threshold of intimacy I am supposed to have obtained?

It's tough for your brain to get rid of that conditioning right away, but it's not a stretch at all to say that you could.

Well, I made out with men when I was younger, the majority of my friends - and I can promise you that conditioning is basically gone. Explanation further.

Personally, I think that if you have already experimented with other men and it hasn't done anything for you, then you've already established with yourself that you're not gay.

Which is what I stated.

I'm curious as to what led you to want to be attracted to men in the first place though, if that's not too personal to answer.

Not at all.

I will let you guys know. I'm not actually in love with a man at this point in time. But if I was on this forum one year ago, this question would have came up; because I did love a man and he loved me and we were not sexually attracted (as if sex was necessary for a romantic relationship to take place between a man and a woman anyways). The reason I did make out with any guys.. which is probably about 10.. is because they were all my friends.. and I was in the process of liberating myself from the gender roles I endured all of my life.

I was genuinely in love with a man.. more so than anyone other than the girl I dated after him. But we were never sexually attracted. We talked about it. It wasn't a hidden subconscious thing.. we were both aware of what was happening.

I can not choose to be gay.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
I haven't denied this sense I was 17.
Well, I made out with men when I was younger, the majority of my friends - and I can promise you that conditioning is basically gone. Explanation further.
If the conditioning was completely gone you'd have no problem having an attraction to men. You may have outwardly thrown it off, but I can see that you have a lot of inner conflict going on. Think of it as someone who has been an atheist for years, but once in a while catches themselves praying. They know they don't want to follow religion anymore, but have been conditioned to since childhood. I would suggest that you go for a drastic change of environment for a while, get out of your local area and go wild for a week or two in a different environment. It'll take away the nervous/insecure edge around you, since you never have to go back there or see anyone there again if you don't choose to, and give you the opportunity to explore freely without judgement from those around you. It's the best way to figure out if you really want this.
 

Jeremiah

Well-Known Member
If the conditioning was completely gone you'd have no problem having an attraction to men. You may have outwardly thrown it off, but I can see that you have a lot of inner conflict going on. Think of it as someone who has been an atheist for years, but once in a while catches themselves praying. They know they don't want to follow religion anymore, but have been conditioned to since childhood. I would suggest that you go for a drastic change of environment for a while, get out of your local area and go wild for a week or two in a different environment. It'll take away the nervous/insecure edge around you, since you never have to go back there or see anyone there again if you don't choose to, and give you the opportunity to explore freely without judgement from those around you. It's the best way to figure out if you really want this.

"If the conditioning was completely gone you'd have no problem having an attraction to men. You may have outwardly thrown it off, but I can see that you have a lot of inner conflict going on.'

Conditioning? There are anatomical difference that begin to manifest in the womb. Anatomical differences between the brains, evidence that homosexuality is hereditary, it is not mere conditioning.

What evidence do you have to support you claim that is "conditioning"?

"Think of it as someone who has been an atheist for years, but once in a while catches themselves praying. They know they don't want to follow religion anymore, but have been conditioned to since childhood."

Sexuality is not like religion, sexuality has biological factors to consider.


"I would suggest that you go for a drastic change of environment for a while, get out of your local area and go wild for a week or two in a different environment. It'll take away the nervous/insecure edge around you, since you never have to go back there or see anyone there again if you don't choose to, and give you the opportunity to explore freely without judgement from those around you. It's the best way to figure out if you really want this."

Is this how you deal with your own repressed sexual attraction to men?
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
"If the conditioning was completely gone you'd have no problem having an attraction to men. You may have outwardly thrown it off, but I can see that you have a lot of inner conflict going on.'

Conditioning? There are anatomical difference that begin to manifest in the womb. Anatomical differences between the brains, evidence that homosexuality is hereditary, it is not mere conditioning.

What evidence do you have to support you claim that is "conditioning"?

"Think of it as someone who has been an atheist for years, but once in a while catches themselves praying. They know they don't want to follow religion anymore, but have been conditioned to since childhood."

Sexuality is not like religion, sexuality has biological factors to consider.


"I would suggest that you go for a drastic change of environment for a while, get out of your local area and go wild for a week or two in a different environment. It'll take away the nervous/insecure edge around you, since you never have to go back there or see anyone there again if you don't choose to, and give you the opportunity to explore freely without judgement from those around you. It's the best way to figure out if you really want this."

Is this how you deal with your own repressed sexual attraction to men?
1)I'm not attracted to men at all, I just don't judge people based on their sexuality, whatever it is that they like as long as it's consentual.
2)If you ask me, the only real "biological" aspect of sexuality is the sex drive itself, I am still not convinced that one can genetically develop a sexual preference. I'm genuinely interested in the study that you say gives evidence to hereditary homosexuality if you can tell me where to find it though.
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
For those that assert homosexuality is some sort of conscious decision.. why can't I consciously decide to be sexually attracted to men?
Part of the reason is genetics and brain chemistry.

Though it is just a theory right now and I am not in the field, it is possible genetics alone will not determine what we ultimately desire, but a combination of genetics and brain chemistry.

The brain chemistry unlike genetics is not hard wired. It can be changed if wanted to induce change. Either way it is a choice. It would require education on your part to understand how to make those changes, but my current understanding leads me to believe it is possible.

Of course many have said, why change the natural state of things, if you like women just leave it that way. I feel the same way actually, it is entirely up to the individual to choose to explore the power of changing their own chemistry.
 

Jeremiah

Well-Known Member
1)I'm not attracted to men at all, I just don't judge people based on their sexuality, whatever it is that they like as long as it's consentual.
2)If you ask me, the only real "biological" aspect of sexuality is the sex drive itself, I am still not convinced that one can genetically develop a sexual preference. I'm genuinely interested in the study that you say gives evidence to hereditary homosexuality if you can tell me where to find it though.

"If you ask me, the only real "biological" aspect of sexuality is the sex drive itself,"

I don't care about your opinions, I want to hear real science.

"I'm genuinely interested in the study that you say gives evidence to hereditary homosexuality if you can tell me where to find it though."

You should have just looked at that the link I gave you.

About your theory of conditioning.

Origins of Sexual Orientation

If our sexual orientation is indeed something we do not choose and seemingly cannot
change (most clearly so for males), then where do these preferences—heterosexual or
homosexual—come from? See if you can anticipate the consensus that has emerged
from hundreds of research studies by responding yes or no to the following questions:

1. Is homosexuality linked with problems in a child’s relationships with parents,
such as with a domineering mother and an ineffectual father, or a possessive
mother and a hostile father?

2. Does homosexuality involve a fear or hatred of people of the other gender, leading
individuals to direct their sexual desires toward members of their own sex?

3. Is sexual orientation linked with levels of sex hormones currently in the blood?

4. As children, were many homosexuals molested, seduced, or otherwise sexually
victimized by an adult homosexual?

The answer to all these questions appears to be no (Storms, 1983). In interviews
with nearly 1000 homosexuals and 500 heterosexuals, Kinsey Institute investigators
assessed nearly every imaginable psychological cause of homosexuality—parental relationships,
childhood sexual experiences, peer relationships, dating experiences (Bell
et al., 1981; Hammersmith, 1982). Their findings: Homosexuals are no more likely
than heterosexuals to have been smothered by maternal love, neglected by their father,
or sexually abused. And consider this: If “distant fathers” were more likely to
produce homosexual sons, then shouldn’t boys growing up in father-absent homes
more often be gay? (They are not.) And shouldn’t the rising number of such homes
have led to a noticeable increase in the gay population? (It has not.)
Homosexual people do, however, appear more often in certain populations. One
study (Ludwig, 1995) of the biographies of 1004 eminent people found homosexual
and bisexual people overrepresented, especially among poets (24 percent), fiction
writers (21 percent), and artists and musicians (15 percent). Gay more than straight
men also express interest in occupations that attract many women, such as decorator,
florist, and flight attendant (Lippa, 2002). (Given that some 96 percent of men are
not gay, most men in such occupations may nevertheless be straight.)

Men who have older brothers are also somewhat more likely to be gay, report Ray
Blanchard (1997, 2008) and Anthony Bogaert (2003)—about one-third more likely for
each additional older brother. If the odds of homosexuality are roughly 2 percent among
first sons, they would rise to nearly 3 percent among second sons, 4 percent for third
sons, and so on for each additional older brother (see FIGURE 11.15). The reason for this
curious phenomenon—the fraternal birth-order effect—is unclear. Blanchard
suspects a defensive maternal immune response to foreign substances
produced by male fetuses. With each pregnancy with a male
fetus, the maternal antibodies may become stronger and may prevent
the fetus’ brain from developing in a male-typical pattern. Consistent
with this biological explanation, the fraternal birth-order effect occurs
only in men with older brothers from the same mother (whether
reared together or not). Sexual orientation is unaffected by adoptive
brothers (Bogaert, 2006). The birth-order effect on sexual orientation
is not found among women with older sisters, women who were
womb-mates of twin brothers, and men who are not right-handed

So, what else might influence sexual orientation? One theory has proposed that
people develop same-sex erotic attachments if segregated by gender at the time their sex
drive matures (Storms, 1981). Indeed, gay men tend to recall going through puberty
somewhat earlier, when peers are more likely to be all males (Bogaert et al., 2002). But
even in tribal cultures in which homosexual behavior is expected of all boys before
marriage, heterosexuality prevails (Hammack, 2005; Money, 1987). (As this illustrates,
homosexual behavior does not always indicate a homosexual orientation.)
The bottom line from a half-century’s theory and research: If there are environmental
factors that influence sexual orientation, we do not yet know what they are.
This reality has motivated researchers to consider more carefully the possible biological
influences on orientation, including evidence of homosexuality in the animal
world, and the influences of differing brain centers, genetics, and prenatal hormone
exposure.
About the genes.

Genes and Sexual Orientation Are these sexuality-related brain differences genetically
influenced? Evidence does indicate a genetic influence on sexual orientation.
“First, homosexuality does appear to run in families,” note Brian Mustanski and
Michael Bailey (2003). “Second, twin studies have established that genes play a substantial
role in explaining individual differences in sexual orientation.” Identical twins
are somewhat more likely than fraternal twins to share a homosexual orientation
(Lángström et al., 2008). (Because sexual orientations differ in many identical twin
pairs, especially female twins, we know that other factors besides genes are at work.)
Experimenters have also, by genetic manipulations, created female fruit flies that
during courtship act like males (pursuing other females) and males that act like females
(Demir & Dickson, 2005). “We have shown that a single gene in the fruit fly is
sufficient to determine all aspects of the flies’ sexual orientation and behavior,” explained
Barry Dickson (2005). With humans, it’s likely that multiple genes, possibly
in interaction with other influences, shape sexual orientation. One study financed by
the U.S. National Institutes of Health is analyzing the genes of more than 1000 gay
brothers in search of such genetic markers.
Researchers have speculated about possible reasons why “gay genes” might exist.
Given that same-sex couples cannot naturally reproduce, how could such genes
have survived in the human gene pool? One possible answer is kin selection. Recall
from Chapter 4 the evolutionary psychology reminder that many of our genes also
reside in our biological relatives. Perhaps, then, gay people’s genes live on through
their supporting the survival and reproductive success of their nieces, nephews,
and other relatives (who also carry many of the same genes). Or perhaps, as now
seems more likely, maternal genetics is at work (Bocklandt et al., 2006). Recent
Italian studies (Camperio-Ciani et al., 2004, 2008) confirm what others have
found—that homosexual men have more homosexual relatives on their mother’s
side than on their father’s. And, compared with the maternal relatives of heterosexual
men, the maternal relatives of homosexual men produce more offspring.
Perhaps, surmise the researchers, the genes that make women more likely to have
children (such as by strongly attracting them to men) also produce sons and
nephews who are attracted to men.

http://www.davidmyers.org/davidmyers/assets/Sex-Orient-9e.pdf
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
"If you ask me, the only real "biological" aspect of sexuality is the sex drive itself,"

I don't care about your opinions, I want to hear real science.

"I'm genuinely interested in the study that you say gives evidence to hereditary homosexuality if you can tell me where to find it though."

You should have just looked at that the link I gave you.

About your theory of conditioning.

About the genes.



http://www.davidmyers.org/davidmyers/assets/Sex-Orient-9e.pdf

Both articles specifically say they are theories, in other words, they are opinions just like mine. Homosexuality in animals can't be used as an argument for genetics, seeing as we don't know what animals are actually thinking. We only know that humans and animals have a sex drive in common. We don't know whether or not those animals are making a concious choice to engage in homosexual activity. You can't criticize me for not giving you facts if you're going to turn around and give me opinions at the same time. I'll look for a study that supports my stance and post it shortly though.
 
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