If it could be proved no god exists

[TagliatelliMonster]

That was not my point. My point is that even if we cannot prove a man committed a murder, if he committed the murder, he committed the murder.

So your point is just a useless tautology?
"If X then X". Great. Can't argue with that.

Can't see the point of it either.

Proof does not change the fact that he committed the murder.

But proof / evidence is required to know he committed the murder.

It works on any entity

Indeed. Both existing and non-existing.
It works on anything your imagination can produce, actually.

If leprechauns exist then leprechauns exist. I am not implying anything about belief. I am not saying you should believe that leprechauns exist absent evidence.

Then what ARE you saying?

The big difference here is that there is no evidence for leprechauns but there IS evidence for Messengers of God that manifest themselves in every age.

No, there isn't.
There is evidence that some people CLAIM to be such messengers or that other people BELIEVE some people to be such messengers.

But that doesn't make it correct. In fact, right out the gates we can deduce that most of these claims must be wrong as they are mutually exclusive and the can't all be correct.

In short: the existance of christians is not evidence for the existance of the christian god.

No, Baha’u’llah had evidence to back up His claims and as such I have evidence that backs up my beliefs.

So you believe. I have yet to see any valid evidence to support the religious claims of any religion.

Yes, I can prove it to myself, and that is all that matters. Why would it matter if I can prove it to others? Why would that be my responsibility?

When you say things like "i can only prove it to myself", you're essentially saying that you can't prove anything at all. That the only thing you can do is convince yourself. Making your claims and beliefs indistinguishable from self-delusion. And utterly disconnected from commonly observable reality.

Yes, they could all be wrong, but it is also possible that one of them might be right, logically speaking.

And "logically" speaking, it is far more likely that they are all wrong, seeing as NONE of them have any valid evidence in support of it and they all make the same kind of unjustified claims.

If one of them is right, why can't it be shown to be the case?

Your logic is sound, so what is the solution?

Pretty easy, actually... Withhold belief until sufficient valid evidence in support of the thing is demonstrated.

Just like in a court of law.
When you don't have sufficient evidence, you rule "non guilty".
Guilt needs to be established through evidence.

I rule gods "not guilty" of existing.

IF you care to know if God exists

I don't have any emotional investments in any gods. I don't care for them any more then I care for leprechauns etc.

, the logical solution is to do the research that is necessary to determine which religion is actually true.

Sorry, but no.
The "logical solution" is not to "do research" on just about any crazy idea any person can come up with. We'ld be busy doing nonsense pointless research for our entire lifetimes, investigating every crazy claim ever uttered by people.

There are about 30.000 denominations of christianity alone. Investigating them allready would take multiple lifetimes. I have better things to do then to investigate ideas that right out the gates are already flawed to begin with (involving unfalsifiable entities and claims of magic).

Also, this smells a lot like you asking me to do your homework.
You are the one who thinks god claims are interesting and worth doing the research. Well, go for it. If you achieve worthwhile results, I'm sure I'll read about it in the papers when you get your nobel prize for succeeding where every theists has failed for the past 8000 years.

I myself, don't see any valid reasons to even suggest gods to begin with. I have no need for such hypothesis. Why would I entertain such ideas and waste time on them?

That won’t mean the other religions are all false, because they share some common beliefs, but there is only one religion that has the latest truth from God. That is my belief but if you want to be illogical you can investigate an older religion like Christianity that is no longer pertinent to the new age we live in. Your choice.

So, you just rule that I am being "illogical" if I choose to investigate any other religion then the one YOU happen to adhere to?

If that is all you did was look at a rainbow and then you believed in leprechauns then you would be committing the fallacy of jumping to conclusions.

I'm just going by your own words. You ended your sentence with "...and believed it was proof". That's a dead give-away of your flawed methodology.

Looking at things and "believing them to be proof of X" to end up with believing it is proof of X is again such a meaningless thing. I can look at soccer and "believe it to be proof of leprechauns" and then be convinced that I have proof of leprechauns.

Surely you see the flaw in this "methodology"?

Words in posts can be misleading and misconstrued. I am not suggesting you just look at something and believe in it.

Cool. But that is exactly what you said though.

One should do a thorough investigation of any religion before they believe it. If after their thorough investigation they cannot believe based upon reason and rationality, then they should discard it.

Sorry, my time is far to valuable to do "thorough" investigations of all the things people merely believe. I have no reason at all to invest time in researching any particular religion. It's mission impossible also, as there are SO MANY religious belief systems out there that "thoroughly" investigating them all would take multiple lifetimes

 

[Desert Snake]

Romans 3:9
2 Thessalonians 2:12


•••

 

[Desert Snake]

John 3:16 requires believing that Jesus is God's "only begotten son." Jews are never going to accept that.

You were talking about atheism. I dont believe anything you say about religion, or theism.

 

[Trailblazer]

You say it is not what you meant and then in the very next breath you started preaching a religion.

The religion is not the evidence.
Baha'u'llah is the evidence -- His Person, His Revelation, and His Writings.

 

[JJ50]

The religion is not the evidence.
Baha'u'llah is the evidence -- His Person, His Revelation, and His Writings.

That isn't evidence.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I did not see where he used the word all.

All atheists are different, just as all believers are different.

I understand that, and I was being hyperbolic to prove a point, because... well... let's just go to the record, shall we? And then we'll turn it around and make it seem like I am making some of the same sorts of comments, with the same tone, about theists and we'll see how they strike you.

Here's what @dfnj said:

I think the atheists are pretending to know more about God than they actually know or understand.

So he starts out talking specifically about atheists, right?

People with a deep and profound appreciation for spirituality seem to be having real experiences as far as I can tell. It may be purely subjective but it is a lot more interesting and fun that nihilism.

And this is a sidenote about theists, which he juxtaposes NOT with atheists... but with nihilism. Isn't that a bit odd? So far, if he's not talking about atheists, then he's just going ALL OVER THE PLACE.

It is a lot more interesting and fun than philosophical materialism (aka realism) which seems to have been shown to be a belief system not supported by scientific evidence.

Another thing he's juxtaposing with theism - and yet another departure from the apparent topic of the paragraph (aka atheists). Again - if he isn't hinting at atheists being "philosophical materialists" then what the heck is he doing? And even then - why reference some subset of atheists who are philosophical materialists when talking to me, who he doesn't know my personal philosophy in-depth? Who is this in reference to? Does it apply to me? He certainly seems to think it was worth mentioning TO ME. Hmmmmm...

People who lack imagination claim all religion is delusional but I think there's more to it.

Again, he started off talking about atheists... and now we're on to "people who lack imagination." Do you see why I am confused? This paragraph is either pinning all these things on the general category "atheist" or it is just wandering ALL OVER THE DAMN PLACE for apparently no reason. Do you understand?

And now, as promised, the same sort of paragraph as @dfnj's, but about theists:

I think the theists are pretending to know things about God that they can't possibly know. People lacking any belief in God rightly question whether theists have any real experiences. It may be purely subjective but it is a lot more interesting and fun to question those sorts of things than to blindly believe that all of it is real. It is a lot more interesting and fun than speaking in tongues (aka glossolalia) which seems to have been shown to be a delusion within belief systems not supported by scientific evidence. People who lack imagination claim that God is responsible for everything, but I think they are not giving the fundamental processes of the universe enough credit..

Boom. Like turnabout much?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

To think in this age there are no on-line encyclopedia?

• Ancient Egyptian deities
• Mesopotamian deities
• Ancient Greek deities
• Ancient Roman deities
• Norse deities
• Hindu deities
  • Hindu gods
  • Devi
• Japanese deities

Let's not dodge the real question here @MJFlores - Did you know that Thor (specifically) was far more than a Marvel comics hero or not?

And to think I do not know my own country's ancient fables of gods and goddesses?

• 1.1 Ancient Tagalog deities
• 1.1.1 Other Tagalog deities
• 1.2 Ancient Bikolano deities
• 1.3 Ancient Visayan Deities
• 1.3.1 Other Visayan deities
• 1.4 Tboli deities
• 1.5 Ilokano deities
• 1.6 Kapampangan deities
• 1.7 Sambal deities
• 1.8 B'laan deities
• 1.9 Batak deities
• 1.10 Palawan Deities
• 1.11 Higaonon Deities
• 1.12 Isneg Deities
• 1.13 Tiruray Deities
• 1.14 Mangyan Deities
• 1.15 Tinguian Deities
• 1.16 Talaandig Deities
• 1.17 Gaddang Deities
• 1.18 Ifugao Deities
• 1.19 Ilongot Deities
• 1.20 Agta Deities
• 1.21 Other Igorot Deities
• 1.22 Kalinga Deities
• 1.23 Tagbanwa Deities
• 2 List of famous diwatas

AWESOME! Now prove to me that these deities do not exist so that you can substantiate the reasons you do not believe in them. Again... I'll wait. Or you can do the alternative - which is to ADMIT THAT YOU UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHY I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The religion is not the evidence.
Baha'u'llah is the evidence -- His Person, His Revelation, and His Writings.

That's like saying that "the religion christianity is not evidence, jesus is the evidence" or "islam is not evidence, mohammed is the evidence".

It's inherently part of the religion.

So what you offer is not evidence. It is instead, indeed religion.

 

[ecco]

When I said: "The reason God cannot be proven the way atheists require is because God cannot be tracked down with a GPS tracker and *proven* to exist the way atheists want" I was not referring to you, I was refer to atheists in general, ones I have posted to for years and years. No, it was not a direct response you your concern about an ill-defined god

But it was directed to me. Therefore the atheist in your "atheists require" was me. If that was not your intention, you should not have put it in a response to me.

 

[ecco]

What was my requirement other than asking for a definition of the entity to be evaluated?

If you, or anyone, wants to see if something does or does not exist, then you need to describe it in detail.

Here is a description of the God *I believe in.*

God in the Bahá'í Faith

Well, let's see...

Bahá'í view of God is essentially monotheistic. God is the imperishable, uncreated being who is the source of all existence.

So, your god has always existed.

He is described as "a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty

How can an unknowable, inaccessible god be a personal god? That's self-contradictory.

Though transcendent and inaccessible directly, his image is reflected in his creation.

That's so vague as to be meaningless.

The purpose of creation is for the created to have the capacity to know and love its creator

Aren't you the person who has been arguing that it is impossible for man to know god's mind? Now, when it's convenient for you, you flip and pretend to know why god created.

God communicates his will and purpose to humanity through intermediaries, known as Manifestations of God, who are the prophets and messengers that have founded religions from prehistoric times up to the present day

The only "evidence" for that is the self-serving writings of an ex-Muslim. That's as unconvincing as the stories of Adam & Eve and Noah and Golden tablets and Moroni.

In point of fact, the only "evidence" for the god you are attempting to describe is the self-serving writings of an ex-Muslim combined with your interpretations and expansions.

David Koresh also believed he was a messenger of god. You accept the self-serving writings of ex-Muslim Ballulah but reject the writings of Koresh. You cannot present a rational argument for preferring one over the other.

In terms of disproving your god, well, there isn't very much there to disprove. One man wrote about him and for some reason, you want to believe he is more real than Atlas or Viracocha or Mixcoatl.

 

[ecco]

There will be then good demand for beef in India.

Great! More cow farts to pollute the atmosphere.

 

[ecco]

So if the "heavens" did not create the world we live in, what or who did?

Even Christians do not believe that The Heavens created the world we live in, they believe god created the heavens and the world we live in.

If you are asking what the source of the Big Bang was or what preceded it, then the honest answer is "we don't know".

 

[ecco]

And anyone who believed in this theory was driven out of academies, lost tenure or had their careers destroyed.

Where did you get your information that anyone who believed in this theory was driven out of academies, lost tenure or had their careers destroyed? Was it from an anti-science website like Plate Tectonics—The Reality Behind a Theory
who write...

When Alfred Wegener proposed a version of this theory in 1912, fellow scientists accused him of “pseudoscience,” “delirious ravings,” and suffering from “moving crust disease.”

No one wants to sound like Wegener’s original close-minded, shrill opponents.
​

Note the quotes without attribution. Which fellow scientists made those accusations? The article doesn't say and the folks at AIG hope you'll just unquestioningly believe it. That's a ploy often used in AIG.

However, scientists had good reason to reject Wegener's original proposals...
(my emphases)

Continental Drift: Theory & Definition
But geologists soundly denounced Wegener's theory of continental drift after he published the details in a 1915 book called "The Origin of Continents and Oceans." Part of the opposition was because Wegener didn't have a good model to explain how the continents moved apart.

Though most of Wegener's observations about fossils and rocks were correct, he was outlandishly wrong on a couple of key points. For instance, Wegener thought the continents might have plowed through the ocean crust like icebreakers smashing through ice. ​

The thing about science is that you can't just say stuff, you have to provide sound reasoning.

Nevertheless, please list some of the people who lost tenure or had their careers destroyed for supporting continental drift.

 

[ecco]

Want to talk about astronomical objects which orbit INSIDE the
earth's core? Want to discuss research on Pre-death experiences?
(that latter one came up as a spelling error BTW)

I sense someone is about to present a bunch of pseudo-science woo.

 

[MJFlores]

Let's not dodge the real question here @MJFlores - Did you know that Thor (specifically) was far more than a Marvel comics hero or not?

Thor is a god in the Norse mythology, you know the Vikings and their rituals like sacrificing a man by mutilating and cutting his rib cage so as to form an eagle. Well anyway, I watched that on Discovery Channel. Thor and the Norse myth gave you the celebration of Yule and Christmas.

So those Christian denominations which celebrate Christmas with their carols, Christmas trees and so forth are actually celebrating Thor or Odin, unwittingly.

AWESOME! Now prove to me that these deities do not exist so that you can substantiate the reasons you do not believe in them. Again... I'll wait. Or you can do the alternative - which is to ADMIT THAT YOU UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHY I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD.

Sure Jose - I know the different gods and goddesses of ancient times, well not like a professional but I am familiar. There are many tales and legends, but even though I am very Asian [Filipino] like Batista or Bruno Mars who are half Filipino

I still could distinguish which is fable, fiction and real - and without a doubt I chose rightly. The Bible is not an ordinary book, that is why I believe in it. It contains prophecies, lessons in living upright, history and teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is the power of God to bring salvation to man.

Today we call our Sacred Scriptures “the Bible.” The Bible-centered method is one of the defining characteristics that make this Church unique.However, the attitude of some more liberal groups concerning the Bible departs even further from the proper reverence that should be accorded the Scriptures, and some who even profess to be Christians, calling the Bible only one of many “sacred texts.”

These same people consider the religious books of other religions, such as those of Buddhism and Hinduism, to be equally valid “expressions of God’s voice” and worthy of equal consideration and respect as the Bible. They consider all the “sacred texts” to be God’s various ways of speaking His truth to man, no matter how much the “truths” these books teach differ from and contradict one another and the Bible.

Still others give the Bible no respect at all, as they try to deconstruct it and attempt to read into the motives of the different writers, assigning them various social and political agendas. For them, there is no such thing as a sacred text. They see the Bible only as a human text that can be analyzed and criticized like any other literary works.

There are those who classify the Bible as a mere collection of myths, that is, something beyond the realm of truth. Others believe that the Bible is a mere work of man and just a product of human imagination.

It is the ultimate authority and guide to the way the Church members think, feel, and act. Why do God’s words written in the Bible hold such power over their lives that they untiringly invite people to listen to and follow His words? The answer to this question rests on the distinctive attribute of the divine word that is also present in God Himself.

wHAT gOD WAS, THE WORD WAS

God is unique in that He is almighty (Gen. 17:1). He has unlimited power. His will always comes to pass since nothing could ever prevent its fulfillment. God’s words possess the same quality:


“For no word from God shall be void of power.” (Lk. 1:37, ASV)

Every word from the Almighty God has power. Like God Himself, His words are of unlimited power. How is God’s power manifested in His words?

“Bring in your idols to tell us what is going to happen. Tell us what the former things were, so that we may consider them and know their final outcome. Or declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods. Do something, whether good or bad, so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear.” (Is. 41:22-23, NIV)

God is able to declare what the future holds. He can tell us the things to come long before they happen. False gods, such as idols and graven images, cannot do or say anything, let alone declare the future. And it is this power of God, which can be seen when what He says come to pass, that proves that He alone is the true God. God is able to “make known the end from the beginning” – or declare what will ultimately and certainly come to pass – because He himself, with His infinite power, brings His words to fulfillment (Is. 46:9-10). This characteristic of God and of His words distinguishes Him from man. Man by Himself cannot “declare the things to come” since he cannot foretell even the day of his own death (Js. 4:14).

Therefore, God’s power and the power of His words are found in no other. In view of this fact:

• There is indeed a sacred scripture, the word of God that “what God was, the word was.”
• This power of the divine word, “declaring the things to come,” cannot be found in any “human text.”
• Only the scripture that have the power of the divine word or the attributes of the word of God can rightfully claim to be the Sacred Scripture where the words of God are indeed written.

DECLARING WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS


The Bible contains several examples of God’s words that were declared long ago but were appointed to take place in the time when the end is near.

You know that all things have its beginnings, and all things do end. The things we now see will end, either on the day we close our eyes, six feet in the ground or we witness the end of the world. The choice is to believe or not to believe - I chose to believe because I know what is at the end of the road if I do not believe.

 

[ecco]

Now prove to me that these deities do not exist so that you can substantiate the reasons you do not believe in them. Again... I'll wait. Or you can do the alternative - which is to ADMIT THAT YOU UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHY I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD.

So, you are asserting that Thor is a real hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, strength, the protection of mankind and also hallowing and fertility. He has two servants, Þjálfi and Röskva, rides in a cart or chariot pulled by two goats. He is the father of Þrúðr and Magni. He crushes mountains with his hammer, Mjölnir. He wears the belt Megingjörð and the iron gloves Járngreipr, and owns the staff Gríðarvölr. He died fighting the monstrous serpent Jörmungandr.

Since he died, what is continuing to cause thunder, lightning, and storms? Since we still have thunder, lightning, and storms, Thor could not have been the cause of them. That is very solid evidence that your Thor is just another in a long line of gods created by man's imaginings.

 

[JJ50]

Thor is a god in the Norse mythology, you know the Vikings and their rituals like sacrificing a man by mutilating and cutting his rib cage so as to form an eagle. Well anyway, I watched that on Discovery Channel. Thor and the Norse myth gave you the celebration of Yule and Christmas.

View attachment 33584

So those Christian denominations which celebrate Christmas with their carols, Christmas trees and so forth are actually celebrating Thor or Odin, unwittingly.



Sure Jose - I know the different gods and goddesses of ancient times, well not like a professional but I am familiar. There are many tales and legends, but even though I am very Asian [Filipino] like Batista or Bruno Mars who are half Filipino

View attachment 33585View attachment 33586

I still could distinguish which is fable, fiction and real - and without a doubt I chose rightly. The Bible is not an ordinary book, that is why I believe in it. It contains prophecies, lessons in living upright, history and teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is the power of God to bring salvation to man.

Today we call our Sacred Scriptures “the Bible.” The Bible-centered method is one of the defining characteristics that make this Church unique.However, the attitude of some more liberal groups concerning the Bible departs even further from the proper reverence that should be accorded the Scriptures, and some who even profess to be Christians, calling the Bible only one of many “sacred texts.”

These same people consider the religious books of other religions, such as those of Buddhism and Hinduism, to be equally valid “expressions of God’s voice” and worthy of equal consideration and respect as the Bible. They consider all the “sacred texts” to be God’s various ways of speaking His truth to man, no matter how much the “truths” these books teach differ from and contradict one another and the Bible.

Still others give the Bible no respect at all, as they try to deconstruct it and attempt to read into the motives of the different writers, assigning them various social and political agendas. For them, there is no such thing as a sacred text. They see the Bible only as a human text that can be analyzed and criticized like any other literary works.

There are those who classify the Bible as a mere collection of myths, that is, something beyond the realm of truth. Others believe that the Bible is a mere work of man and just a product of human imagination.

It is the ultimate authority and guide to the way the Church members think, feel, and act. Why do God’s words written in the Bible hold such power over their lives that they untiringly invite people to listen to and follow His words? The answer to this question rests on the distinctive attribute of the divine word that is also present in God Himself.

wHAT gOD WAS, THE WORD WAS

God is unique in that He is almighty (Gen. 17:1). He has unlimited power. His will always comes to pass since nothing could ever prevent its fulfillment. God’s words possess the same quality:


“For no word from God shall be void of power.” (Lk. 1:37, ASV)

Every word from the Almighty God has power. Like God Himself, His words are of unlimited power. How is God’s power manifested in His words?

“Bring in your idols to tell us what is going to happen. Tell us what the former things were, so that we may consider them and know their final outcome. Or declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods. Do something, whether good or bad, so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear.” (Is. 41:22-23, NIV)

God is able to declare what the future holds. He can tell us the things to come long before they happen. False gods, such as idols and graven images, cannot do or say anything, let alone declare the future. And it is this power of God, which can be seen when what He says come to pass, that proves that He alone is the true God. God is able to “make known the end from the beginning” – or declare what will ultimately and certainly come to pass – because He himself, with His infinite power, brings His words to fulfillment (Is. 46:9-10). This characteristic of God and of His words distinguishes Him from man. Man by Himself cannot “declare the things to come” since he cannot foretell even the day of his own death (Js. 4:14).

Therefore, God’s power and the power of His words are found in no other. In view of this fact:

• There is indeed a sacred scripture, the word of God that “what God was, the word was.”
• This power of the divine word, “declaring the things to come,” cannot be found in any “human text.”
• Only the scripture that have the power of the divine word or the attributes of the word of God can rightfully claim to be the Sacred Scripture where the words of God are indeed written.

DECLARING WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS


The Bible contains several examples of God’s words that were declared long ago but were appointed to take place in the time when the end is near.

You know that all things have its beginnings, and all things do end. The things we now see will end, either on the day we close our eyes, six feet in the ground or we witness the end of the world. The choice is to believe or not to believe - I chose to believe because I know what is at the end of the road if I do not believe.

Oh dear!

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

...because I know what is at the end of the road if I do not believe.

Nah... you don't.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

So, you are asserting that Thor is a real hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, strength, the protection of mankind and also hallowing and fertility. He has two servants, Þjálfi and Röskva, rides in a cart or chariot pulled by two goats. He is the father of Þrúðr and Magni. He crushes mountains with his hammer, Mjölnir. He wears the belt Megingjörð and the iron gloves Járngreipr, and owns the staff Gríðarvölr. He died fighting the monstrous serpent Jörmungandr.

Since he died, what is continuing to cause thunder, lightning, and storms? Since we still have thunder, lightning, and storms, Thor could not have been the cause of them. That is very solid evidence that your Thor is just another in a long line of gods created by man's imaginings.

You misunderstood me, friend. I am an atheist... I don't believe in ANY of this crap.

I was merely asking our theistic-minded friend, @MJFlores, to prove to me that Thor doesn't exist because I wanted this person to realize that that task CANNOT be done. Not by anyone. And yet this person does not believe in Thor. And then I wanted this person to realize that they simply dismiss Thor (as do I) because there is not good evidence for Thor. And then I wanted this person to put two-and-two together (I know, a tall ask) and realize that I do not believe in their God, nor Thor, nor Vishnu, nor any other god for that same reason. Basically - that these gods all had their "Day in the sun" - they all had their texts and worshippers, and that Christianity (or any of the Abrahamic religions) is NOT some special case. It has the same forms and caliber of evidence as any of those others. So where is the justification to believe one set of hearsay and not another? There is no good justification.

 

[Katzpur]

I wonder what would be the reaction of theists if evidence was discovered which proved beyond any shadow of doubt that no god has ever existed, and all faiths are created by humans?

If you can prove "beyond any shadow of doubt that no god has ever existed," I will happily become an atheist. Good luck with that.