If it could be proved no god exists

[Trailblazer]

So, the writings of God's Appointed Messenger, Balulah, are not sufficiently clear. Perhaps God needs to select Messengers who can accurately convey His Message. That way you wouldn't have to rely on the writings of mere mortals like Effendi and now anonymous people writing for "The Guardian".

Perhaps God knows what He is doing because God is All-Knowing and All-Wise. Since you are neither, giving suggestions about “what God should do” is rather comical.

Baha’u’llah’s Writings are sufficiently clear to me but all people have different levels of understanding and they are at different stages of spiritual development, so some people might need some help understanding what Baha’u’llah wrote. Perhaps that is why Baha’u’llah set it up so there would be appointed interpreters of His Writings, knowing at the time that not all people would be able to grasp the meaning of His Words. It is a crying shame we never had such help understanding the Bible because it would have prevented a lot of confusion and strife.

 

[Trailblazer]

But, as you have already pointed out, the writings of any Messenger can be abrogated by any new Messenger. A new Messenger coming along next year can just say: "You need to take what Balulah said with a grain of salt. I truly am the Messenger appointed by God to convey his words to a 21st Century world".

Why would I believe a new Messenger, after what Baha’u’llah wrote?

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 346

Just as 99% of the world rejects Balulah as a fraud. And for the same reasons.

No, absolutely NOT for the same reasons. They reject Baha’u’llah because He is not the same man Jesus, but since the same man Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no longer in the world, there is no REASON for Christians to expect the same man Jesus to return, except that they want Him to.... But God does not go by wants, God ordains stuff, and there ain’t nothing Christians can do about that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Here you go again, wishy-washy, back and forth to try to make sense of your own beliefs. You have already stated that Jesus wrote nothing. You have already stated that the words attributed to Jesus may or may not have been accurately recorded. We know that the supposed authors of the Gospels were not eyewitnesses.

So what? I already told you the Baha’i position on that. Everything did not have to be recorded word-for-word because the essence, or essential elements, of what Jesus intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in the New Testament.

"logical deductions"? How is it logical to believe Jesus was a Messenger of God but never conveyed anything directly to mankind? How is it logical to believe Moses was a Messenger of God but never conveyed anything directly to mankind? Or did he? You have come down on both sides of this.

The Messengers of the older religions in the Adamic Cycle of religion did not write their own scriptures, other people wrote them. But as I said for Jesus the essence, or essential elements, of what the Messengers intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in the scriptures of those religions. The Bab and Baha’u’llah were the first Messengers of God to write their own scriptures.

APOLOGETICS! You have no basis for your comment that "people were different". If much of the bible is allegorical, how is anyone supposed to know what to believe and what to chalk up to fantasy morality tales? How do you know that the writings of Balulah and the events and actions attributed to him, are not also allegorical?

We cannot know about everything in the Bible, whether it is allegorical or literally happened, but if we use common sense we can know most of it. For one, if we crosscheck it with what religious scholars say about real history we can know if it really happened or not.

In just 2000 years mankind went from needing childish stories to "understanding straight talk".

That's funny from many different perspectives. For one thing, the minds of humans have changed very little in two thousand years. For another, the extensive belief in Gods and religions today shows that people still need to rely on childish stories. Finally, to call the writings of Balulah "straight talk" is hilarious. They are a load of barely coherent ramblings that constantly need interpretation and reinterpretation.

Even if people have not changed that much, the world has changed a lot and we now have science and many ways to know that stories are not possible to have happened. 2000 years ago it might not have been as much of a stretch to believe Jesus rose from the dead of the belly of a whale story or even the worldwide flood, but in modern times only Christians still believe these things because it was drummed into them.

As for Baha’u’llah’s Writings, I never used to understand them but once I learned more about the Baha’i Faith and got more motivated I started to understand them without any interpretation.

I guess I'm one of those who you would consider ready. I have left the past behind. I don't still cling to the Bible and other older scriptures.

I said collectively, and the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is for at least the next 1000 years. This is only the beginning. More people will be ready as time goes on.

 

[Trailblazer]

NONSENSE! Pretty easy?
There are people on this forum who believe all of Genesis is allegorical.
There are people on this forum who believe all of Genesis is actual fact.

There are thousands of different sects of Christianity. One reason is that people cannot agree on what is and what is not allegorical. There's is nothing easy about it.

There are divisions in Islam for the same reason.

If we turn to the Revelation of Baha’u’llah the Bible can be better understood since Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha explained much of the Bible, the parts we need to know.

There will always be divisions and sects in the older religions because they had no written Covenant passing along succession of authority or authority to interpret the scriptures as we have in the Baha’i Faith. That is one reason we needed a new religion. There can never be unity of mankind with all those different religious sects.

 

[ecco]

Strawman... open another thread where we can deal with your issues.

As I said.

I understand you can't address comments about your convoluted religion, but don't try laying off the blame on me.

Feel free to make a final banal comment.

 

[ecco]

So what? I already told you the Baha’i position on that. Everything did not have to be recorded word-for-word because the essence, or essential elements, of what Jesus intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in the New Testament.

And, as I already told you, you have the same problems with the conversations B supposedly had with Governmental leaders.

And, where we do have the actual writings of B, they are rambling and mostly incoherent.

And, before you go sputtering about the clarity of B's writings, remember how many times you and other Bahai's have had to go back to the Bahai website to get clarification on issues I raised.

Bottom line, as I have repeatedly stated, your religion is no different than other religions in terms of - well, anything. Just the same old "believe me because I say or the writings say believe me", nonsense repackaged.

We cannot know about everything in the Bible, whether it is allegorical or literally happened, but if we use common sense we can know most of it. For one, if we crosscheck it with what religious scholars say about real history we can know if it really happened or not.

NONSENSE. There are people on these forums whose "common sense" leads them to different conclusions than other people. Need I point out, again, that there are thousands of sects of Christianity - all based on their own "common sense" interpretations.

Religious scholars are not all in agreement about many scriptural things. People, as we see on these forums, choose to disregard in accordance with their "common sense".

But, if you really want to apply common sense to these questions then it should be obvious that there is no magic man in the sky who, from time to time, chooses Messengers to tell His minions about Himself.

Even if people have not changed that much, the world has changed a lot and we now have science and many ways to know that stories are not possible to have happened. 2000 years ago it might not have been as much of a stretch to believe Jesus rose from the dead of the belly of a whale story or even the worldwide flood, but in modern times only Christians still believe these things because it was drummed into them.

"but in modern times only Christians still believe these things because it was drummed into them" that's funny coming from any believer.

As for Baha’u’llah’s Writings, I never used to understand them but once I learned more about the Baha’i Faith and got more motivated I started to understand them without any interpretation.

You understand them until you have to convey your understanding to others.

I said collectively, and the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is for at least the next 1000 years. This is only the beginning. More people will be ready as time goes on.

Riiight. In with religion, out with common sense.

 

[ecco]

If we turn to the Revelation of Baha’u’llah the Bible can be better understood since Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha explained much of the Bible, the parts we need to know.

So, God failed with the Messenger Jesus. That's not a big surprise.

That is one reason we needed a new religion. There can never be unity of mankind with all those different religious sects.

And, since we will always have different religious sects we will never have unity of mankind. That's a good thing. Ants and bees have unity of mind.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, God failed with the Messenger Jesus. That's not a big surprise.

No, God did not fail with Jesus. Jesus succeeded in accomplishing what He set out to do.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

And, since we will always have different religious sects we will never have unity of mankind. That's a good thing. Ants and bees have unity of mind.

No, we won’t always have religious sects. In the future there will be only one religion because that is what God has ordained.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91

 

[littleme]

I would be surprised if it could be proved no god exists, but it would be great, I don't like the idea of gods.

 

[Trailblazer]

I would be surprised if it could be proved no god exists, but it would be great, I don't like the idea of gods.

It would sure be a lot easier in many ways if God did not exist, He makes some of us believers work so hard.

 

[littleme]

It would sure be a lot easier in many ways if God did not exist, He makes some of us believers work so hard.

I would give up if I were you, unbelievers like me are unconvinced by any preaching.

 

[ecco]

No, God did not fail with Jesus. Jesus succeeded in accomplishing what He set out to do.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

You, yourself have stated that Jesus wrote nothing.
You, yourself have stated that the quoted speech of Jesus may or may not be accurate.
You, yourself have stated that the actions attributed to Jesus may or may not be accurate.

If all we have from God's Messenger Jesus is a bunch of "maybe" stuff, then we would have to conclude that Jesus failed as a Messenger of God.

 

[ecco]

No, we won’t always have religious sects. In the future there will be only one religion because that is what God has ordained.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91

Realistically, all you have here is a series of long-winded pleas and admonishments to then-current rulers.

O Tongue of this Temple! We, verily, have created thee through Our name, the All-Merciful, have taught thee whatsoever had remained concealed in the Bayán, and have bestowed upon thee the power of utterance, that thou mayest make mention of Mine exalted Self amidst My creatures. Proclaim, then, this wondrous and mighty Remembrance, and fear not the manifestations of the Evil One. Thou wert called into being for this very purpose by virtue of My transcendent and all-compelling command. Through thee have We unloosed the Tongue of Utterance to expound all that hath been, and We shall again, by My sovereign power, unloose it to speak of that which is yet to come. Erelong shall We bring into being through thee eloquent tongues that will praise and extol Me amongst the Concourse on high and amidst the peoples of the world.
​

Interestingly enough, all the leaders and rulers ignored this ex-muslim's incoherent ramblings. They saw Balulah was nothing more than another religious wannabe.

Similarly, today most folk, if they have ever even heard of him, feel the same way.

 

[Trailblazer]

I would give up if I were you, unbelievers like me are unconvinced by any preaching.

Who said anything about preaching?

 

[Trailblazer]

You, yourself have stated that Jesus wrote nothing.
You, yourself have stated that the quoted speech of Jesus may or may not be accurate.
You, yourself have stated that the actions attributed to Jesus may or may not be accurate.

If all we have from God's Messenger Jesus is a bunch of "maybe" stuff, then we would have to conclude that Jesus failed as a Messenger of God.

Nope, because Baha’u’llah validated Jesus and so we know Jesus succeeded with flying colors. Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah wrote:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

 

[Trailblazer]

Realistically, all you have here is a series of long-winded pleas and admonishments to then-current rulers.

No, those are just a very small part of all the tablets Baha’u’llah wrote.

Interestingly enough, all the leaders and rulers ignored this ex-muslim's incoherent ramblings. They saw Balulah was nothing more than another religious wannabe.

Why would it matter what the leaders and rulers ignored? Of course they ignored Baha’u’llah because they were Christians and Muslims and Baha’u’llah came claiming to be a Messenger of God teaching a new faith. Obviously they did not like the fact that a new religion might replace their religions.

Similarly, today most folk, if they have ever even heard of him, feel the same way.

Why would it matter what “most people” think?

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, voxpopuli,[2] and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), fickle crowd syndrome, and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans"). It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect. The Chinese proverb "three men make a tiger" concerns the same idea.
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

 

[ecco]

Why would it matter what the leaders and rulers ignored? Of course they ignored Baha’u’llah because they were Christians and Muslims and Baha’u’llah came claiming to be a Messenger of God teaching a new faith. Obviously they did not like the fact that a new religion might replace their religions.

It matters because your whole shtick is that Baha’u’llah is ushering a new worldwide religion that is going to unify mankind. Do you somehow believe that as the memory of Baha’u’llah fades into to distant past, more people are going to change and begin to believe in Bahai? The opposite is true.

And remember, no one can come along 500 years from now and remind everyone how wonderful Bahai is. It's just another wannabe in a long list f wannabes

Why would it matter what “most people” think?

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

You really need to stop pretending that you understand what argumentum ad populum refers to. When it comes to religions it does matter how many people are followers. Especially a religion whose claim to fame is that it can unite all the worlds people.