If it could be proved no god exists

[JJ50]

Not to everyone.
What does your God have to say about that?

A god says whatever a human wishes it to say. My mother-in-law and the Bible god were best buddies, it agreed with everything she thought and did, including the clothes she wore and the TV programmes she enjoyed.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Not to everyone.
What does your God have to say about that?

Then he created them that way for a reason.

 

[ecco]

The message of Moses was imparted through the OT, but that does not mean that everything that was attributed to Moses was exactly what Moses said or that it literally happened. In some cases what is written in the Bible is metaphorical, so for example the worldwide flood story could have had a metaphorical meaning.

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.
(11 February 1944 to an individual believer)

Letters written on Behalf of the Guardian? Seriously. Now, in order to justify your beliefs, you have to turn to the writings of a mortal man to try to explain what your religion is all about.

You have to try to do what most Christians do, pick and choose what parts of scripture are actual and what parts are allegorical. It's called pick and choose.

Essentially you are admitting that the writings of Messenger Moses are not to be taken literally. However, when it comes to the writings of Balulah, you believe each and every word. How ridiculous and nonsensical. Do you really need to wait 2000 years for another Messenger to come along and say "Take all of Balulah's writings with a Big Grain of Salt"?

Supposedly Balulah said he would be the last Messenger for 2000 years. What if next month another Bahai Messenger comes along and says "Balulah's comments about 2000 years really meant 2000 days - I am a real God's Messenger.

Would you believe him also or would you reject him as a fraud? For similar reasons, most Christians, Muslims, Jews, and atheists see Balulah as a fraud.

 

[ecco]

Jesus did not impart any messages through the NT. The men who wrote the NT imparted God's Messages about Jesus to mankind. The same applies as I just said about Moses, with these additions that apply to the Gospels.

Then how did Messenger Jesus convey anything of value to mankind? If he didn't, then what is the purpose of him being a Messenger?

From the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh:

The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His utterances.
...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings,

APOLOGETICS
So God didn't care how much of Jesus' words and deeds were recorded accurately...

all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic.

...but now God wants to be sure that everything that Balulah said was recorded accurately.

Did God suddenly come to the realization that man asks questions?

 

[Trailblazer]

My mother-in-law and the Bible god were best buddies, it agreed with everything she thought and did, including the clothes she wore and the TV programmes she enjoyed.

Or so she imagined.

 

[ecco]

Clearly, the Baha'i Faith does not disregard the OT, the NT, or the Koran.
These are the sacred scriptures whereby these Messengers communicated God's teachings to man.

"Whereby the Messengers communicated God's teachings to man" except as modified by later Messengers and Guardian Writers who tell followers what to believe and what to take as allegory.

Did you already forget the apologetics you posted on Saturday?

 

[ecco]

That is very, very funny, because you have made some assumptions, facts not in evidence...

I became a Baha'i at age 17 and I was not searching for God or religion when I stumbled upon the Baha'i Faith.

It was shortly after I became a Baha'i that I started to run away from God for most of my life, since had no desire to believe in God.
That went on for about 42 years.

Then about seven years ago logic and reason finally caught up with me and I realized I had better get square with God since I am getting older and I do not have that much time left on this earth. That is when I proceeded to go on the Planet Baha'i forum and talk to other Baha'is about God and Baha'u'llah.

I recall telling people that I was about 80 or 90% sure that Baha'ullah was a Messenger of God during the first couple of years, but the more I uncovered in my research, mostly because of all the questions I was fielding on an atheist forum, the more certain I became, and now I am 100% sure.

Nevertheless, believing in God and being a Baha'i is anything but fun.
If my needs mattered, being a Baha'i would be the very last thing I need.
That is probably one reason why I tried to run away from it for most of my life.

OK I'll revise my comment:

ecco said: Because it makes very clear that you have been searching for a religion to believe in all your life. When you found Bahai AGAIN, you were finally at peace with your own needs.

 

[ecco]

You dont have to repent and even if I forgive you you'll never be as happy as you could have been.

Since you believe that belief in God brings happiness, please explain why the divorce rate is higher among Fundamentalist Christians than it is among atheists.

Belief in life brings happiness.

Duck and dodge and twist and turn. Now you say "Belief in life brings happiness". Earlier you implied that belief in God, such as you have, brings happiness. Why bother.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Duck and dodge and twist and turn. Now you say "Belief in life brings happiness". Earlier you implied that belief in God, such as you have, brings happiness. Why bother.

Either way.

 

[Trailblazer]

Letters written on Behalf of the Guardian? Seriously. Now, in order to justify your beliefs, you have to turn to the writings of a mortal man to try to explain what your religion is all about.

Yes I do because God does not write books.

Supposedly Balulah said he would be the last Messenger for 2000 years. What if next month another Bahai Messenger comes along and says "Balulah's comments about 2000 years really meant 2000 days - I am a real God's Messenger.

Baha'u'llah explained what God would do in that case:

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 346

Would you believe him also or would you reject him as a fraud? For similar reasons, most Christians, Muslims, Jews, and atheists see Balulah as a fraud.

Of course I would reject him as a fraud.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then how did Messenger Jesus convey anything of value to mankind? If he didn't, then what is the purpose of him being a Messenger?

It was conveyed in the New Testament.

APOLOGETICS
So God didn't care how much of Jesus' words and deeds were recorded accurately...

...but now God wants to be sure that everything that Balulah said was recorded accurately.

Did God suddenly come to the realization that man asks questions?

I have no idea what God was thinking or what He cared about. All I know is what happened and I can make some logical deductions from that.

Jesus came in a different age and back in that age people were different so God communicated differently. Thus we had the Bible, much of which was allegorical because that is how people could understand. But now we can understand straight talk so that is what we have from Baha'u'llah. There is some symbolism in His Writings but it is not confusing if we understand the context. And we also have the appointed interpreters Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi to clarify what we might not understand.

When the Bible was written people had not spiritually evolved to the point where they were ready for a direct revelation from God written in the Pen of the Messenger. Humanity collectively is ready now but most people have not left the past behind yet as we can see by all the people who still cling to the Bible and other older scriptures.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Whereby the Messengers communicated God's teachings to man" except as modified by later Messengers and Guardian Writers who tell followers what to believe and what to take as allegory.

Nothing was modified, the meaning was just explained.

In case you forgot I told you we are supposed to figure out what is an allegory by ourselves and that is pretty easy to do in most cases.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK I'll revise my comment:

ecco said: Because it makes very clear that you have been searching for a religion to believe in all your life. When you found Bahai AGAIN, you were finally at peace with your own needs.

Nope, that is not it.

It is very clear that I have been a Baha'i all of my adult life so I had a religion all of my adult life (49 years).
Because I had a religion I was not searching for a religion.

I ran away from religion for 42 years. I was engaged in various other activities and had other interests, and God was not even a consideration.

Then about seven years ago I realized I had better get right with God because I had run away all my life and I was pissed off at God, so I decided to go on Planet Baha'i forum. That rekindled the little bit of interest I had in God and the Baha'i Faith and it eventually turned into a forest fire...

Now here I am on RF, burning hot!

I do not think it was really a conscious choice I made to go to Planet Baha'i as I discovered it quite by accident. I think it was God guiding me back to Him. It has been up and down ever since, anything but easy, but I cannot even imagine how much worse it would have been if I had continued as I had been, hating God and living for the material world and not even caring about other people. My life has completely changed now that I have decided to follow God instead of my own selfish desires.

I am not at peace with my own needs because my own needs are not being met, but I am at peace that I am doing what God wants me to be doing even though I often fall flat on my face trying to do it. I still do not like God very much but that is a work in progress.

 

[Kenny]

So, you have gone from ducking and dodging to building strawmen to hide behind.

Where did I say "many of the "thousands of Christian Sects" believe there is more than one God"? I didn't.

then stay on context and quit creating a strawman.

Open a new threat about different sects if you want.

 

[ecco]

Letters written on Behalf of the Guardian? Seriously. Now, in order to justify your beliefs, you have to turn to the writings of a mortal man to try to explain what your religion is all about.

Yes I do because God does not write books.

So, the writings of God's Appointed Messenger, Balulah, are not sufficiently clear. Perhaps God needs to select Messengers who can accurately convey His Message. That way you wouldn't have to rely on the writings of mere mortals like Effendi and now anonymous people writing for "The Guardian".

 

[ecco]

Supposedly Balulah said he would be the last Messenger for 2000 years. What if next month another Bahai Messenger comes along and says "Balulah's comments about 2000 years really meant 2000 days - I am a real God's Messenger.

Baha'u'llah explained what God would do in that case:

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor.

But, as you have already pointed out, the writings of any Messenger can be abrogated by any new Messenger. A new Messenger coming along next year can just say: "You need to take what Balulah said with a grain of salt. I truly am the Messenger appointed by God to convey his words to a 21st Century world".

Of course I would reject him as a fraud.

Just as 99% of the world rejects Balulah as a fraud. And for the same reasons.

 

[ecco]

RE: Jesus' words

It was conveyed in the New Testament.

Here you go again, wishy-washy, back and forth to try to make sense of your own beliefs. You have already stated that Jesus wrote nothing. You have already stated that the words attributed to Jesus may or may not have been accurately recorded. We know that the supposed authors of the Gospels were not eyewitnesses.

I have no idea what God was thinking or what He cared about. All I know is what happened and I can make some logical deductions from that.

"logical deductions"? How is it logical to believe Jesus was a Messenger of God but never conveyed anything directly to mankind? How is it logical to believe Moses was a Messenger of God but never conveyed anything directly to mankind? Or did he? You have come down on both sides of this.

Jesus came in a different age and back in that age people were different so God communicated differently. Thus we had the Bible, much of which was allegorical because that is how people could understand.

APOLOGETICS! You have no basis for your comment that "people were different". If much of the bible is allegorical, how is anyone supposed to know what to believe and what to chalk up to fantasy morality tales? How do you know that the writings of Balulah and the events and actions attributed to him, are not also allegorical?

But now we can understand straight talk so that is what we have from Baha'u'llah.

In just 2000 years mankind went from needing childish stories to "understanding straight talk".

That's funny from many different perspectives. For one thing, the minds of humans have changed very little in two thousand years. For another, the extensive belief in Gods and religions today shows that people still need to rely on childish stories. Finally, to call the writings of Balulah "straight talk" is hilarious. They are a load of barely coherent ramblings that constantly need interpretation and reinterpretation.

There is some symbolism in His Writings but it is not confusing if we understand the context. And we also have the appointed interpreters Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi to clarify what we might not understand.

I addressed this above.

When the Bible was written people had not spiritually evolved to the point where they were ready for a direct revelation from God written in the Pen of the Messenger.

Clear, concise, direct revelations from God such as...

Tablet of the Mist of the Unknown

Our charm bids waft the Mist of Unknown
Mystery of fidelity thus flows from Our tone
The east wind, musk-laden, from Cathay2 whirls
Its scent so sweet streams forth from Our curls
The ornamented sun from the True One hath risen
Mystery of reality from Our3 visage doth blazon
The sea of purity roars from waves of rapture4
This gift bestowed from His essence5 We capture
Love's treasures lie hid in the bosom of Fars6
Out this treasure-trove Pearls of Fidelity pours
Delight of wine evinced when All7 was manifested
To songs of providence8 this Sublime Token attested​

Uh huh. That's a very clear "direct revelation from God". That's much clearer than the 2000 year old "let him who is without sin cast the first stone". Uh huh. What kind of mental gymnastics do you have to go through to make such nonsensical comments?

Humanity collectively is ready now but most people have not left the past behind yet as we can see by all the people who still cling to the Bible and other older scriptures.

I guess I'm one of those who you would consider ready. I have left the past behind. I don't still cling to the Bible and other older scriptures.

That's because I see childish comic book nonsense for what it is. That's exactly why people like me who have left the past behind reject your Bahai as just more of the same childish comic book nonsense.

 

[ecco]

In case you forgot I told you we are supposed to figure out what is an allegory by ourselves and that is pretty easy to do in most cases.

NONSENSE! Pretty easy?
There are people on this forum who believe all of Genesis is allegorical.
There are people on this forum who believe all of Genesis is actual fact.

There are thousands of different sects of Christianity. One reason is that people cannot agree on what is and what is not allegorical. There's is nothing easy about it.

There are divisions in Islam for the same reason.

Violence in the Quran - Wikipedia
While numerous scholars explain Quranic phrases on violence to be only in the context of a defensive response to oppression;[2][3][4][5][6] violent groups have interpreted verses to endorse their violent actions[7] and made the Quran's teachings on violence and war a topic of vigorous debate.
​

What cloistered world are you living in that you don't know these things?

 

[ecco]

It is apparent you don't understand Christianity.

then stay on context and quit creating a strawman.

You're funny.
The thread is about proving no god exists. Given that, just within Christianity, there are thousands of versions of God, it should be a lot easier for one group/sect of Christians to prove their version is correct. That is and has been the context of our conversation since ~ Oct 10th. So, where have I gone off context and where have I created strawmen?

I understand you can't address comments about your convoluted religion, but don't try laying off the blame on me.

 

[Kenny]

You're funny.
The thread is about proving no god exists. Given that, just within Christianity, there are thousands of versions of God, it should be a lot easier for one group/sect of Christians to prove their version is correct. That is and has been the context of our conversation since ~ Oct 10th. So, where have I gone off context and where have I created strawmen?

I understand you can't address comments about your convoluted religion, but don't try laying off the blame on me.

Strawman... open another thread where we can deal with your issues.