If Jesus Christ is Almighty God then why are we to pray to God through Jesus Christ?

[Dogknox20]

" Christians have ALWAYS believed Jesus is God!. "

So, one acknowledges that it is the Hellenist-Pauline-Christians' claim and not the claim of Yeshua's ; and he was never a "Christian" but the Jewish Messiah, one gathers, please. Right?

Regards

paarsurrey It's good to hear from you... I hope all is well.
It's a fact.... Christians have ALWAYS believed Jesus is God!
To be Christian is to believe Jesus is God! Christians are "Christ Followers"! Got that? "Christ Followers!"

If you reject what Christians believe then logic says.. "You are NOT Christian!"

 

[Dogknox20]

(Clears throat.).." Um.. .I sometimes pray directly to Jesus, not just in his name."
"In fact I sometimes pray directly to the Holy Spirit too."
(Gets ready to duck.)

.
Wildswanderer good to meet you.. Christians have ALWAYS believed Jesus is God!

I must point out... To pray is the Name of Jesus; is to pray with the Authority of Jesus! Jesus never gave you any authority to represent him! He gave his authority to his Church; He made Peter his Shepherd, he gave his Keys to Peter: Keys are a symbol of Authority! Peter commanded men "In Jesus' Name"!

 

[Soapy]

You think that Jesus can be without sin and still be a man? If that's the case then you don't accept the scriptures as God's inspired word!

Listen carefully to the words of Paul in Romans 5:12. 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:'

Is Jesus not a man? In fact, to you Jesus is nothing more than a man!

No!

The scriptures tells us that Jesus was born ‘Holy’ by means of the spirit of God (in the same manner as the first man, Adam).

As such, Jesus was sinless. Sin comes through the procreation (Human-Human germination). Jesus was not procreated just as Adam was not procreated.

For this reason Jesus is called, ‘The Last Adam’, seeing that no other of humanity would ever be created in this manner.

 

[Soapy]

You also say that Jesus is not our Saviour, but scripture tells another story.

Hosea 13:4 'Yet l am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no other god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.'

This passage from Hosea clearly states that God is the only Saviour. Agree?

Then how do you explain John 4:42?
'And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.'

I did not say that Jesus was not a saviour.

Joshua (O.T.) was a saviour.

The name we read as ‘Jesus’ is actually ‘Joshua’, also. Translators (from Hebrew, through Aramaic, and Greek, to English) changed the name told to Mary the virgin.

Any liberal, shallow, superfluous, investigation will show you this.

Indeed, the names (Joshua and Jesus) have exactly the same meaning:

• ‘[For he shall] SAVE HIS PEOPLE [into the promised land]

I gave you the analogy of a president dispatching an emissary to an enemy country to save the lives of his countries prisoners of war.

You seem to have ignored the question I asked as to whom you would say is the saviour in that scenario.

Perhaps you did so when you realised that the ‘saviour’ is not a single entity but requires CONTEXT in order to answer the question.

In fact, I even gave you the context in that God telling the Israelites that he was their only saviour refers to the context of ‘OTHER GODS’: No other God is your saviour! God fulfilled his word by sending Jesus (after jesus showed for 30 years that he was willing and able and accepted the teaching and training from God required to do the task) to do the deed.

 

[Soapy]

.
Wildswanderer good to meet you.. Christians have ALWAYS believed Jesus is God!

I must point out... To pray is the Name of Jesus; is to pray with the Authority of Jesus! Jesus never gave you any authority to represent him! He gave his authority to his Church; He made Peter his Shepherd, he gave his Keys to Peter: Keys are a symbol of Authority! Peter commanded men "In Jesus' Name"!

This is quite right. It is not the WORD, the NAME, the letters of the name, that is the power.

Many people think that just saying, “…. In the name of Jesus [Christ].” at the end their prayer is enough for a valid prayer…., No!

In Jesus’ name means, all of and more:

• In integrity
• In reverence
• In honesty
• In truthfulness
• In unselfishness
• In glory to God
• In … (you get the picture!)

Just blabbing off a request to win the lotto or that your friend climbs safely to the top of Kilimanjaro, does not make a valid prayer.

Before Jesus gave us the model prayer (‘Our Father, Who art in Heaven….’) people prayed in all manner of styles many of which did not conform to the best model. Sincere prayers would contain a style akin to the model but may still have left out parts unintentionally (in ignorance!). Since we now have a model, the ‘Lord’s prayer’, there is no excuse for shortages or overblown or excessive prayers.

We should not use the model prayer daily… it is just the framework. We are to pray within the framework. We must not do repeats like they do in corporate worship (used so everyone speaks the same memorised words) but pray silently in secret (read: in private!!) in the manner that Jesus did: ‘Father, I know you always hear me …. But for the people standing here i pray openly so they know it is YOU doing the deed [of raising up Lazarus]’

 

[Colt]

How is it to be justified as a belief that in order for God to hear our prayers we need to pray through Jesus Christ, in which certain belief systems claim that Jesus Christ is God to whom we are to pray to?

Another way of asking the same question is, ‘How is Jesus Christ the same GOD that we are praying to when we pray through him?’

Also, how is Jesus Christ then different to God such that we pray through Jesus Christ in order to reach the ears of ‘another’ whom is God?

To me, the scriptures, and even Jesus Christ, says that he (Jesus Christ) is a man, a human Being, but a human without sin. And that is the crux that makes it work for me: That because, and only because, Jesus Christ is sinless, analogous to the high priest in the temple, our prayers can only reach THE ALMIGHTY GOD through him, that one considered holy and sinless. In other words, Jesus Christ, like the high priest (and Jesus Christ is himself also a high priest!!) acts as a filter for our prayers to the almighty king, the God of Heaven, Yahweh. This therefore answers my own question saying, ‘No, Jesus Christ is not almighty God’…

But what do you say and how do you justify your ideas on this using scriptures alone?

Jesus is a divine Son, a part of the "plural manifestation" of the Infinite God. He is God the Son.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I did not say that Jesus was not a saviour.

Joshua (O.T.) was a saviour.

The name we read as ‘Jesus’ is actually ‘Joshua’, also. Translators (from Hebrew, through Aramaic, and Greek, to English) changed the name told to Mary the virgin.

Any liberal, shallow, superfluous, investigation will show you this.

Indeed, the names (Joshua and Jesus) have exactly the same meaning:

• ‘[For he shall] SAVE HIS PEOPLE [into the promised land]

I gave you the analogy of a president dispatching an emissary to an enemy country to save the lives of his countries prisoners of war.

You seem to have ignored the question I asked as to whom you would say is the saviour in that scenario.

Perhaps you did so when you realised that the ‘saviour’ is not a single entity but requires CONTEXT in order to answer the question.

In fact, I even gave you the context in that God telling the Israelites that he was their only saviour refers to the context of ‘OTHER GODS’: No other God is your saviour! God fulfilled his word by sending Jesus (after jesus showed for 30 years that he was willing and able and accepted the teaching and training from God required to do the task) to do the deed.

Hosea clearly states that there is only one Saviour. There is no other.

Is Jesus Christ your Saviour, or not?

 

[Wildswanderer]

.
Wildswanderer good to meet you.. Christians have ALWAYS believed Jesus is God!

I must point out... To pray is the Name of Jesus; is to pray with the Authority of Jesus! Jesus never gave you any authority to represent him! He gave his authority to his Church; He made Peter his Shepherd, he gave his Keys to Peter: Keys are a symbol of Authority! Peter commanded men "In Jesus' Name"!

I am the church. So is everyone who believes in Jesus for salvation.
I believe in praying in Jesus name but he also said to ask, seek and knock... and I think he was talking about a direct conversation with him.

 

[Soapy]

Jesus is a divine Son, a part of the "plural manifestation" of the Infinite God. He is God the Son.

How is what you just said explaining anything to do with the question asked?

 

[Soapy]

I am the church. So is everyone who believes in Jesus for salvation.
I believe in praying in Jesus name but he also said to ask, seek and knock... and I think he was talking about a direct conversation with him.

No!

We are to PRAY TO THE FATHER… in the name of the Son.

Jesus said to pray in his name - TO the Father. That’s why he gave us the model prayer which does not mention Jesus at all. The prayer is in reverence to God, the Father. Reread - recite - recognise the elements of the prayer…. They express gratitude and reverence and desires of holiness towards the Father in the same way if someone was petitioning a great king. They would not petition directly to the king but through a middleman between himself and the king. If the petitioner were to say something out of sorts then the middleman would not pass that disrespectful request to the king.

Pray THROUGH Jesus’ NAME TO GOD.

Jesus’ name is the filter … ‘Name’ being all the things and more that I outlined before.

 

[Wildswanderer]

No!

We are to PRAY TO THE FATHER… in the name of the Son.

Jesus said to pray in his name - TO the Father. That’s why he gave us the model prayer which does not mention Jesus at all. The prayer is in reverence to God, the Father. Reread - recite - recognise the elements of the prayer…. They express gratitude and reverence and desires of holiness towards the Father in the same way if someone was petitioning a great king. They would not petition directly to the king but through a middleman between himself and the king. If the petitioner were to say something out of sorts then the middleman would not pass that disrespectful request to the king.

Pray THROUGH Jesus’ NAME TO GOD.

Jesus’ name is the filter … ‘Name’ being all the things and more that I outlined before.

Paul. . . to the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours (1 Corinthians 1:1–

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are you to take the …

Again direct worship and prayers to Jesus.

Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my Spirit” (Acts 7:59)

At Paul’s conversion, he prayed to Jesus: “Lord, what wilt thou have me do?” (Acts 9:6)

Ananias conversed with Jesus when Jesus spoke to him in a vision (Acts 9:10–14).

Apostle John: “Even so come, Lord Jesus!” (Revelation 22:20). If it were wrong to petition Christ, John would have said something like “Father, may the Son come."

 

[Soapy]

Hosea clearly states that there is only one Saviour. There is no other.

Is Jesus Christ your Saviour, or not?

Yes, GOD is the only GOD who can save! No other God can do this.

Not the Gods of the Egyptians, not the Gods of the Philistines, not the gods of the moabites, hittites, jacobites, mesoboites, crabites, genibites… none of them.

Only the God of the Israelites.

God sends Jesus to do the deed. God required a human sacrifice - a sacrifice of pure blood, a sinless, holy, and righteous man. One such blameless man’s life for the whole of sinful, unholy, unrighteous humanity:

• “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— ….
• But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! (Romans 15:12 & 15)

The ‘gift’ is ‘Everlasting life’ brought about by the death in sinlessness of Jesus Christ, the one and only man who was sinless, holy, and righteous in the eyes of God.

 

[Colt]

How is what you just said explaining anything to do with the question asked?

I thought you would understand it.

Try this, define God?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yes, GOD is the only GOD who can save! No other God can do this.

Not the Gods of the Egyptians, not the Gods of the Philistines, not the gods of the moabites, hittites, jacobites, mesoboites, crabites, genibites… none of them.

Only the God of the Israelites.

God sends Jesus to do the deed. God required a human sacrifice - a sacrifice of pure blood, a sinless, holy, and righteous man. One such blameless man’s life for the whole of sinful, unholy, unrighteous humanity:

• “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— ….
• But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! (Romans 15:12 & 15)

The ‘gift’ is ‘Everlasting life’ brought about by the death in sinlessness of Jesus Christ, the one and only man who was sinless, holy, and righteous in the eyes of God.

You're still not getting it! If God was with Jesus then salvation only occurs because God's Spirit dwells amongst men. Jesus does not save without the Father, he saves with the Father! The righteousness of Jesus is the righteousness of God!

2 Corinthians 5:19 'To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.'

Was the Spirit of the Father in Jesus in full measure (from the time of his baptism)?

 

[Soapy]

Paul. . . to the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours (1 Corinthians 1:1–

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are you to take the …

Again direct worship and prayers to Jesus.

Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my Spirit” (Acts 7:59)

At Paul’s conversion, he prayed to Jesus: “Lord, what wilt thou have me do?” (Acts 9:6)

Ananias conversed with Jesus when Jesus spoke to him in a vision (Acts 9:10–14).

Apostle John: “Even so come, Lord Jesus!” (Revelation 22:20). If it were wrong to petition Christ, John would have said something like “Father, may the Son come."

Which part of anything you listed is in respect of PRAYING TO JESUS?

In regard to Jesus returning to the physical world, there is nothing wrong or spectacular about someone referring directly to the one who is to come in the manner shown. If someone was waiting for the great salmon run but it appeared to to be late that year, they can easily and expectantly say, ‘May you great salmon come!’. It simply refers to the act to be performed. It certainly need not be to be speaking to the entity involved - speaking ABOUT the entity… not necessarily TO the entity. Certainly the salmon entity in the illustration would not be cogniscent of the ‘order’ to come!! In truth, the speaker in the case of Jesus is simply stating what jesus said would happen - that Jesus would return - but notice that Jesus’ return is not at the command of the scripture writer but “At a time that is in the Father’s hands!!” The petition is, in effect, to GOD, then, who is the one who decides when it is time to send back Jesus. Jesus has no say when he returns!!!

Conversing with someone in vision is not praying!!!!!!

 

[Soapy]

You're still not getting it! If God was with Jesus then salvation only occurs because God's Spirit dwells amongst men. Jesus does not save without the Father, he saves with the Father! The righteousness of Jesus is the righteousness of God!

2 Corinthians 5:19 'To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.'

Was the Spirit of the Father in Jesus in full measure (from the time of his baptism)?

You say, ‘If God was with Jesus…’. There is no ‘if’ in what I ever said about Jesus. I say God was with Jesus (teaching and directing him: and jesus was fully compliant with this) and in Jesus after his baptism in through the spirit of God. Tick tick tick tick!!

So I have no idea what you are arguing about. You are going off the topic and into a sullied soil territory.

I have never said that God was not in Christ… Where are you getting this nonsense objection from?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Which part of anything you listed is in respect of PRAYING TO JESUS?

In regard to Jesus returning to the physical world, there is nothing wrong or spectacular about someone referring directly to the one who is to come in the manner shown. If someone was waiting for the great salmon run but it appeared to to be late that year, they can easily and expectantly say, ‘May you great salmon come!’. It simply refers to the act to be performed. It certainly need not be to be speaking to the entity involved - speaking ABOUT the entity… not necessarily TO the entity. Certainly the salmon entity in the illustration would not be cogniscent of the ‘order’ to come!! In truth, the speaker in the case of Jesus is simply stating what jesus said would happen - that Jesus would return - but notice that Jesus’ return is not at the command of the scripture writer but “At a time that is in the Father’s hands!!” The petition is, in effect, to GOD, then, who is the one who decides when it is time to send back Jesus. Jesus has no say when he returns!!!

Conversing with someone in vision is not praying!!!!!!

If it's God you are conversing with, then it's prayer.

They are all examples of praying.

Here's another:
Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.”12


If you ask me .. not if you ask the Father through my name.

How about prayers to the Holy Spirit?

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.”

How about hymns to Jesus? Those are prayers also.

Proof of early hymns to Jesus is found in a letter from the Roman Governor Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan (about A.D. 110). Pliny accused the Christians of “singing hymns to Christ as to a god.”

If it were wrong to pray to Jesus (and the Spirit), it would be wrong to sing many of the hymns in our songbooks.

". Jesus, Thou art all compassion; Pure, unbounded love Thou art.
Visit us with Thy salvation; Enter every trembling heart."

This is a prayer.

Augustine of Hippo, perhaps the best-known church father (c. AD 400), prayed to Jesus:

You are Christ, my Holy Father, my Tender God, my Great King, my Good Shepherd, my Only Master, my Best Helper, my Most Beautiful and my Beloved, my Living Bread . . . my Entire Protection, my Good Portion, my Everlasting Salvation.
Christ Jesus, Sweet Lord, why have I ever loved, why in my whole life have I ever desired anything except You, Jesus my God? Where was I when I was not in spirit with You? Now, from this time forth, do you, all my desires, grow hot, and flow out upon the Lord Jesus. . .

I could go on.

 

[Soapy]

I thought you would understand it.

Try this, define God?

First, tell me what you mean by ‘God’?

I’ll give you some pointers:

• ‘God’ is a TITLE of an entity that is ultimate, supermen, the highest, greatest, most magnificent, most glorious, the judge, the ruler, the almighty … in a context
• ‘God’ is the superlative to describe the above

Thus, ‘The word of God(1) is God(2)’

1. The supreme being
2. The superlative

The utterance of (1) the greatest worshipped deity is (2) Almighty.

To Jews (Hebrews / Israelites / Jews / Christians / Muslims) there is only one Supreme Being (1). And that supreme being is entitled ‘God’.

‘God’, the word, is only in the scriptures by translation. It is actually a word taken from GERMANIC ORIGIN which speaks of the Middle Ages. I don’t know what the original word was but nowadays it is a globally used word for the deity that the above list of belief systems call their ultimate judge.

To us, since we have only one deity that we worship, we simply refer to that deity by the title of ‘God’. By rights, and in full, it is ‘THE GOD OF US’ (‘Our God’) but, again, since we are speaking in unison (see the belief list above) there is no need for extraneous definitions: ‘God’ will suffice. For sure, if we were conversing with people of very different belief systems WE WOULD HAVE TO DEFINE each time WHICH GOD we were referring to: Hence the conversation between [the God of the israelites] and Moses. The Israelites thought the message Moses brought my them might have come from any one of the many Egyptians Deities. Each Egyptian deity (God) had a defining personal name… but since the Israelites had only one Deity there had been no need to have a personal name for Him. This God gave them a personal name: “YHWH”, “and that is to be my name for eternity”, ‘The God of the Israelites told them….!

So, this Israelite God is the creator; the Father of all things; a Spirit being who creates other subordinate spirit beings… and created man in his image - to rule over the created world just as He rules over the spirit world.

So, what else do you want to know over and above what I’ve tipped you off with?

 

[Dogknox20]

I am the church. So is everyone who believes in Jesus for salvation.
I believe in praying in Jesus name but he also said to ask, seek and knock... and I think he was talking about a direct conversation with him.

Wildswanderer I hope all is well...

I must point out.. "Jesus is The Church!" NOT you!

To be "IN" the Church you MUST be "Immersed" into Jesus' holy Body! You must be "Baptized" into Jesus to be IN the Church!

The CHURCH is holy!
Jesus died for His Church!
The Church is the Body of Jesus'
Jesus cares for His Church!
Jesus is ALWAYS with his CHURCH... To the very end of the world!

18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Wildswanderer note Jesus built on ROCK... Not on sand! Jesus is NOT a fool! ............... Jesus' Church will never fall!

25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Wildswanderer Jesus is ALWAYS with his CHURCH this means he did not make you his Church because he built on ROCK; 2000 years ago!

Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.”

 

[Colt]

First, tell me what you mean by ‘God’?

I’ll give you some pointers:

• ‘God’ is a TITLE of an entity that is ultimate, supermen, the highest, greatest, most magnificent, most glorious, the judge, the ruler, the almighty … in a context
• ‘God’ is the superlative to describe the above

Thus, ‘The word of God(1) is God(2)’

1. The supreme being
2. The superlative

The utterance of (1) the greatest worshipped deity is (2) Almighty.

To Jews (Hebrews / Israelites / Jews / Christians / Muslims) there is only one Supreme Being (1). And that supreme being is entitled ‘God’.

‘God’, the word, is only in the scriptures by translation. It is actually a word taken from GERMANIC ORIGIN which speaks of the Middle Ages. I don’t know what the original word was but nowadays it is a globally used word for the deity that the above list of belief systems call their ultimate judge.

To us, since we have only one deity that we worship, we simply refer to that deity by the title of ‘God’. By rights, and in full, it is ‘THE GOD OF US’ (‘Our God’) but, again, since we are speaking in unison (see the belief list above) there is no need for extraneous definitions: ‘God’ will suffice. For sure, if we were conversing with people of very different belief systems WE WOULD HAVE TO DEFINE each time WHICH GOD we were referring to: Hence the conversation between [the God of the israelites] and Moses. The Israelites thought the message Moses brought my them might have come from any one of the many Egyptians Deities. Each Egyptian deity (God) had a defining personal name… but since the Israelites had only one Deity there had been no need to have a personal name for Him. This God gave them a personal name: “YHWH”, “and that is to be my name for eternity”, ‘The God of the Israelites told them….!

So, this Israelite God is the creator; the Father of all things; a Spirit being who creates other subordinate spirit beings… and created man in his image - to rule over the created world just as He rules over the spirit world.

So, what else do you want to know over and above what I’ve tipped you off with?

...."a Spirit being who creates other subordinate spirit beings" yes, that. Those spirit beings can also be considered God.