• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

If Jesus could heal blind men, why didn't he just heal blindness?

Do you believe the story of Jesus healing the blind?

  • Yes! Jesus performed this amongst many miracles

    Votes: 30 42.9%
  • There is some truth to it but it was not a miracle

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No! It's a made up story

    Votes: 31 44.3%

  • Total voters
    70

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
The existence of a person is no miracle.
I don't think you even read the quotes or my post completely.

The Miracle is this: Baha'u'llah never studied religions, sciences or history, and yet He revealed thousands of Tablets containing the knowledge of Religions, Sciences and History.
He did this, when most of His time He was in prison, and exile in difficult situations with no access to Books to study.
Not that having all the verses of the Quran or Bible in memory is important, but Baha'u'llah could quote all the verses from His mind perfectly correct, without a previous study or Memorization.
He revealed thousands of Tablets, many of which in Fluent Arabic, while He did not study the Arabic Language (He was Persian). He knew the History of the past, whether religious or other History without studying. He knew about scientific discoveries. When He revealed Tablets, He did not have to stop and think, or even go back and edit His own writings. Sometimes He revealed an entire Book in just 2 days, non-stop, just once. For the first time in History , He founded a religion that is not dividable, unlike previous religions that sometimes turned to hundreds or thousands of sects.....
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
How is he or what he wrote miraculous. Countless people have concocted theological sounding texts?

You don't have to name countless, You just name one person, that 'without' studying religions, and while in prison and no access to Books, have constructed theological concepts.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
That is silly. The most common and intuitive proof of God is the supernatural.

What is silly is to think, supernatural means contradiction with science. The Source of Laws in natural sciences is still God, the Supernatural being.
 
Last edited:

1robin

Christian/Baptist
You don't have to name countless, You just name one person, that 'without' studying religions, and while in prison and no access to Books, have constructed theological concepts.
Muhammad could not read nor write (supposedly) yet concocted theology believed in by far more people than Bahaullah. There is nothing miraculous about poetic or theological words though I will give Bahaullah credit for creating a whole lot of them. Of course there is not much else to do in prison. I was not being sarcastic, uneducated people by the thousands have written all types of works in prison. A few questions.

1. What was he imprisoned for?
2. Are you claiming he had no contact with books? Why, was in in solitary?
3. How did he get thousands of sheets of paper and gallons of ink?
4. I thought the texts were supposed to be on tablets, where did he get them?
5. How did Bahaullah miraculously know all this stuff when you argue against miracles, at least in the Bible?
6. How old was he when imprisoned?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
What is silly is to think, supernatural means contradiction with science. The Source of Laws in natural sciences is still God, the Supernatural being.

This is not accurate. The supernatural is defined as beyond, transcending, or above nature. When an eye is healed by God it is a suspension of natural law. Just because both have the same source does not mean they are equivalent. Both ice and steam are water but only one can be thrown through a window. The supernatural and the natural are by definition not equivalent. Men are subject to the natural and can only do natural things, God is not. That is why proof of God is primarily the non binding of natural law on the entity or individual. This is common sense and has been true or men throughout recorded history. Only those who are only human and bound by natural law would deny it. What is consistent with science with a guy in prison spitting out thousands of pages of stuff he does not know (as you claim)?
 
Last edited:

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I don't think you even read the quotes or my post completely.

The Miracle is this: Baha'u'llah never studied religions, sciences or history, and yet He revealed thousands of Tablets containing the knowledge of Religions, Sciences and History.
He did this, when most of His time He was in prison, and exile in difficult situations with no access to Books to study.
Not that having all the verses of the Quran or Bible in memory is important, but Baha'u'llah could quote all the verses from His mind perfectly correct, without a previous study or Memorization.
He revealed thousands of Tablets, many of which in Fluent Arabic, while He did not study the Arabic Language (He was Persian). He knew the History of the past, whether religious or other History without studying. He knew about scientific discoveries. When He revealed Tablets, He did not have to stop and think, or even go back and edit His own writings. Sometimes He revealed an entire Book in just 2 days, non-stop, just once. For the first time in History , He founded a religion that is not dividable, unlike previous religions that sometimes turned to hundreds or thousands of sects.....
There is an entire body or classification of literature called "prison literature". Many of the authors were not educated and wrote masterful works. Many of these works preexist Bahaullah by thousands of years when books themselves were scarce. When you claim everything is true including mutually exclusive claims that is nonsense not miraculous. Knowing the past is a common as knowing the future is rare. Even if all this was true it would only show he was smart, attentive, and wrote fast. If you added he was raised from death then we might be getting somewhere. BTW my God got his apostles out of jails every time, until their work was done, he did not leave them in prison. Where are Bahaullah's originals?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Hi 1robin, it might help if an overall view of what Elohim is doing would be presented.
Hello Ken, I hope this is not going to be a semantic argument.

What Elohim wants is for us to BECOME like Him, knowing good and evil, and reject the evil and choose the good.
If the goal is for us to become like him then everyone has failed and will fail. If the line in the sand for heaven is identical moral character as Jesus then not only every single human but the standard its self is a failure. If not then this goal is not a heaven and hell issue and there for not within the context I was speaking in.

For that to transpire, Elohim had to FIRST create us FLESH, being CONSIGNED to sin, and THEN delivering us OUT from that consignment or slavery.
That sounds like for what the atheists object to. I do not believe in a God that would make the human race sick. I do believe that Adam was a perfect representative of me and all other men and had the capacity to sin but not a fallen nature until he did so. Freewill necessitates the ability to sin but does not mandate a fallen nature until sin takes place.
Most feel Adam and Eve were sinless with no propensity toward sin, and they with full knowledge did choose to sin. That belief is most certainly false because Adam and Eve were created with the same sinful nature as their offspring (see 1 Cor 15:43-49).
Their offspring were derivative so the connection is incidental. You seem to have the primary as secondary or derivative.

The Messiah IS the 2nd Adam or Last Adam, the Spiritual Man, and He did not come FIRST, but rather the sinful, corrupt, dishonoured, and WEAK natural or earthy/fleshly man (see v.46). So in Elohim's plan, man was created IN darkness (blindness) and sin, with a propensity to be AGAINST Him and not to obey Him, because of our naked flesh and it's desires.
Actually the Bible says everything that was made was made through Christ. That makes him prior to Adam unless you are only discussing his appearance on Earth. Being created fallen is unjust and any God that would doom a race from it's inception a hard one to figure. Do you have any verses that state Adam was born fallen. there are plenty that claim Adam fell when he sinned but not before.


Now, as a act of fair play, all according to Elohim's Grace, He is allowing us to use the disobedience that He created us under, to fulfill what the Law required us to do, which is "sinner, sacrifice for your sin." All have sinned and all have this righteousness (doing what the Law required for your sin--which is to sacrifice) as a free gift. In fact, where you increase sin, you increase this Grace for it is by each and everyone one of us sinning, that we did place Yeshua up on the cross as OUR sacrifice.
I have no meaningful objection to this so far.

It takes faith to believe and accept that Yeshua is your offering for sin, but once "seen" a redemption and atonement FROM sin occurs. This redemption should be viewed as being redeemed OUT from the slavery of sin, and the atonement is in how we come up INTO a NEW LIFE without sin. Only doing what is right atones for evil, and ONLY in Yeshua can that atonement occur. This is why the Law requires that on the day of Atonement everyone was to "afflict" themselves. What is that "affliction" or "fast" that Yahweh requires (see Isa 58)? Isn't it to "loose" the bands of wickedness, and undo sinful burdens, and break the yoke of every sin? Entering INTO this FAST causes suffering, for anyone who desires to do Elohim's WILL, undergoes persecution (see 2 Tim 3:12). So LEARNING how to SUFFER as He suffered (see 1 Pet 4:13-19, 1 Pet 2:21) is the atonement and redemption FROM sin, and He suffered and died for us to bring us to that knowledge of the Truth.

Yeshua knew that what was going to happen to Him was THE Abomination which causes desolation, and that those who could SEE, would flee from their sin and no longer have anything to do with lifting Him up on the Cross. The Law and the Prophets specifically state that the shedding of Innocent blood is an abomination, and that putting the Righteous and Innocent to death is abominable. But Elohim knew that our killing of Yeshua would open our blind eyes to see the result of what our wickedness causes...the shedding of innocent blood, and bless us to TURN from our iniquity and have our blindness healed. Hopefully, 1robin you may start to see the difference between a substitutionary atonement and a true and living atonement. KB
I will not comment on the technicalities, only the main issue. You seem to have gone the long way round the barn to posit a works based salvation model or at least a works dependent salvation model. If you can confirm or clarify this then I will contend with that conclusion as it is probably the view I think most destructive and prohibitive within Christianity. No offense intended.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Sacrifice of Jesus was like how a seed is sacrificed and its form is destructed but instead a Tree comes to existence that would give good fruits. Jesus was that Good Seed. By Sacrificing Himself a good Tree came to existence. That good Tree, was no other than the Word of God that was established through Jesus as a new Faith in its own time, and the fruits appeared in the form of Betterment of the World of mankind, so those who are blind may see the Truth. However, after centuries the Tree became too old and no more fruit it gives.
There is so little established by the above it is hard to find anything to evaluate. Words do not save they only point the way to salvation. If words saved then how does the pigmy in the bush get saved who does no have a Bible. Did Jesus say or hint at any of what you have said when Nicodemus asked how to enter the kingdom? No offense intended but what you said sounds like what a hippy in central park would have said in the 60's. Jesus has the power to save but what you gave sounds to me like empty rhetoric. There is no claim with enough clarity or foundation to debate with. Jesus is not a faith he is a person, but the faith he inspired is simply a new covenant of the Biblical narrative. He was predicted hundreds of times in the OT and existed before the OT. Nothing new about that or him.

I also quote from the writings of Abdulbaha:

"the religion of God is one, and it is the educator of humankind, but still, it needs must be made new. When thou dost plant a tree, its height increaseth day by day. It putteth forth blossoms and leaves and luscious fruits. But after a long time, it doth grow old, yielding no fruitage any more. Then doth the Husbandman of Truth take up the seed from that same tree, and plant it in a pure soil; and lo, there standeth the first tree, even as it was before. "
The religion of God is not one to Bahaullah. It is a thousand mutually exclusive versions all jammed together into an inert single conglomerate. I have never seen the word fruitage used before, I guess that is something. Jesus is not the author or mere words he is alive and has the miraculous power to save and billions will testify being born again by that power. The word simply points the way. Or are you making some "Logos" point? I am having a hard time simply knowing what you are claiming is.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Baha'u'llah was the Title of the Promised One.
How many people in history do you think claimed to be a promised one of one kind or another. Only one defeated death.

The Prophecy is saying when the Promised One comes, His Words, the Word of God, is like Water of Life for the Spiritually Thirsty.
No, this is what it said:
and I saw the Glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory." Ezekiel 43:2
Bahaullah never radiated with the glory of God and his voice was not the voice of rushing waters. This prophecy also occurs while the Temple in Jerusalem is standing. Not the case in Bahaullah's time. We are potentially wagering our souls on these issues. I just can't get over that your are willing to do so on the gross misinterpreting of scriptures like this. Find me a single respected non-Baha'i biblical scholar (Christian or not) that agrees with your interpretation. It will not help but I will give the correct interpretation given by scholars paid for their ability to clarify the Biblical text by Universities and internationally respected publishers.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

43:1-27 After Ezekiel had surveyed the temple of God, he had a vision of the glory of God. When Christ crucified, and the things freely given to us of God, through Him, are shown to us by the Holy Ghost, they make us ashamed for our sins. This frame of mind prepares us for fuller discoveries of the mysteries of redeeming love; and the whole of the Scriptures should be opened and applied, that men may see their sins, and repent of them. We are not now to offer any atoning sacrifices, for by one offering Christ has perfected for ever those that are sanctified, Heb 10:14; but the sprinkling of his blood is needful in all our approaches to God the Father. Our best services can be accepted only as sprinkled with the blood which cleanses from all sin.Pulpit Commentary
Verse 2. - Scarcely had the prophet taken up his station at or near the gate when the glory of the God of Israel (see on Ezekiel 1:28; 3:23) came from the way of the east, as if intending to enter the temple by the very door through which it had previously departed from the temple (comp. Ezekiel 10:19; Ezekiel 11:22, 23). The voles which proceeded from the theophany and resembled the noise of many waters, is after the LXX. (καὶ φωνὴ τῆς παρεμβολῆς) by Keil and Smend understood to have been the sound produced by the motion of the wheels and the rustling of the wings of the cherubim (see on Ezekiel 1:2, 4; 10:5), but is better taken, with Kliefoth and Hengstenberg, to signify the voice of the Almighty himself, i.e. of the personal Jehovah (comp. Revelation 1:15). The statement that the earth shined with his glory (comp. Revelation 18:1) has by Havernick, Kliefoth, and others been supposed to indicate the absence of that "cloud" in which the glory of Jehovah appeared in both the Mosaic tabernacle (Exodus 40:34, 35) and the Solomonic temple (1 Kings 8:10, 11), and thereby to point to the clearer and more resplendent manifestations of the Godhead, which were to be given in connection with the new dispensation for which Ezekiel's "house" was being prepared. This, however, as Keil has shown, cannot be main-rained in face of the facts that in both Exodus and 1 Kings "the glory of the Lord" is used synonymously with "the cloud," and that in Ezekiel's vision "the glory" and "the cloud" were alike present (see Ezekiel 10:3, 4). Kliefoth and Schroder hold "the earth" which was illumined to have been "the whole globe," "the entire region of humanity," as in Isaiah 6:3; Isaiah 60:1, etc.; but there does not appear ground for departing from the ordinary sense of the words, that "the path" of the advancing God was irradiated by the brilliance of his material glory.

Baha'u'llah wrote:

"O peoples of the earth! God, the Eternal Truth, is My witness that streams of fresh and soft-flowing waters have gushed from the rocks, through the sweetness of the words uttered by your Lord, the Unconstrained; and still ye slumber." Baha'u'llah
Anyone could write that (even I could). The issue is the evidence it is true. That prophecy is sure not among that evidence.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Muhammad could not read nor write (supposedly) yet concocted theology believed in by far more people than Bahaullah. There is nothing miraculous about poetic or theological words though I will give Bahaullah credit for creating a whole lot of them. Of course there is not much else to do in prison. I was not being sarcastic, uneducated people by the thousands have written all types of works in prison. A few questions.

1. What was he imprisoned for?
2. Are you claiming he had no contact with books? Why, was in in solitary?
3. How did he get thousands of sheets of paper and gallons of ink?
4. I thought the texts were supposed to be on tablets, where did he get them?
5. How did Bahaullah miraculously know all this stuff when you argue against miracles, at least in the Bible?
6. How old was he when imprisoned?

You can get answer to your questions here:

The Life of Bahá'u'lláh
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
This is not accurate. The supernatural is defined as beyond, transcending, or above nature. When an eye is healed by God it is a suspension of natural law. Just because both have the same source does not mean they are equivalent. Both ice and steam are water but only one can be thrown through a window. The supernatural and the natural are by definition not equivalent. Men are subject to the natural and can only do natural things, God is not. That is why proof of God is primarily the non binding of natural law on the entity or individual. This is common sense and has been true or men throughout recorded history. Only those who are only human and bound by natural law would deny it. What is consistent with science with a guy in prison spitting out thousands of pages of stuff he does not know (as you claim)?

I didn't deny Supernatural. I don't think you understood me.
What you say is just because God is All-Power full, He can do anything.

This is incorrect. God can only do logical things, and those that do not contradict with Science. Can God create a Heavy Stone He cannot lift?
Can God, physically Resurrect a person that is turned to dust?

Supernatural is beyond the natural, but that does not mean, it is supposed to do illogical things.
Baha'u'llah had an innate knowledge. God-given knowledge. He knew things without learning them. This is not what I claim. This is what Baha'u'llah claimed, and He said people should 'investigate' His claim. He does not ask anyone to believe blindly. Baha'u'llah lived just 150 years ago. His history is well-documented, well-known. with good accuracy, so, we know almost where He was, in a given day of a year. From childhood, to the time of ascension. It is not like, thousands of years ago, like Moses, or Jesus, or Muhammad, with unknown and unverifiable history.

To understand the Baha'i Teaching regarding Miracles read this:

"The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.
But in the Holy Books an especial terminology is employed, and for the Manifestations these miracles and wonderful signs have no importance. They do not even wish to mention them. For if we consider miracles a great proof, they are still only proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed, and not for those who are absent.
For example, if we relate to a seeker, a stranger to Moses and Christ, marvelous signs, he will deny them and will say: “Wonderful signs are also continually related of false gods by the testimony of many people, and they are affirmed in the Books. The Brahmans have written abook about wonderful prodigies from Brahma.” He will also say: “How can we know that the Jews and the Christians speak the truth, and that the Brahmans tell a lie? For both are generally admitted traditions, which are collected in books, and may be supposed to be true or false.” The same may be said of other religions: if one is true, all are true; if one is accepted, all must be accepted. Therefore, miracles are not a proof. For if they are proofs for those who are present, they fail as proofs to those who are absent.
But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ.
The outward miracles have no importance for the people of Reality. If a blind man receives sight, for example, he will finally again become sightless, for he will die and be deprived of all his senses and powers. Therefore, causing the blind man to see is comparatively of little importance, for this faculty of sight will at last disappear. If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal life—that is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: “Let the dead bury their dead;” for “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”*
Observe: those who in appearance were physically alive, Christ considered dead; for life is the eternal life, and existence is the real existence. Wherever in the Holy Books they speak of raising the dead, the meaning is that the dead were blessed by eternal life; where it is said that the blind received sight, the signification is that he obtained the true perception; where it is said a deaf man received hearing, the meaning is that he acquired spiritual and heavenly hearing. This is ascertained from the text of the Gospel where Christ said: “These are like those of whom Isaiah said, They have eyes and see not, they have ears and hear not; and I healed them.”†
The meaning is not that the Manifestations are unable to perform miracles, for They have all power. But for Them inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life are the valuable and important things. Consequently, whenever it is recorded in the Holy Books that such a one was blind and recovered his sight, the meaning is that he was inwardly blind, and that he obtained spiritual vision, or that he was ignorant and became wise, or that he was negligent and became heedful, or that he was worldly and became heavenly.
As this inner sight, hearing, life and healing are eternal, they are of importance. What, comparatively, is the importance, the value and the worth of this animal life with its powers? In a few days it will cease like fleeting thoughts. For example, if one relights an extinguished lamp, it will again become extinguished; but the light of the sun is always luminous. This is of importance.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 100-102
 
Last edited:

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
There is an entire body or classification of literature called "prison literature". Many of the authors were not educated and wrote masterful works. Many of these works preexist Bahaullah by thousands of years when books themselves were scarce. When you claim everything is true including mutually exclusive claims that is nonsense not miraculous. Knowing the past is a common as knowing the future is rare. Even if all this was true it would only show he was smart, attentive, and wrote fast. If you added he was raised from death then we might be getting somewhere. BTW my God got his apostles out of jails every time, until their work was done, he did not leave them in prison. Where are Bahaullah's originals?

Here is a Book to answer your question:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 1-2



I cannot do the work for you. What I can do, is give you the info.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
How many people in history do you think claimed to be a promised one of one kind or another. Only one defeated death.

You should read what Abdulbaha says about Resurrection of Jesus:


When they asked Abdulbaha:

Question.—What is the meaning of Christ’s resurrection after three days?

Abdulbaha replied:

Answer.—The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All Their states, Their conditions, Their acts, the things They have established, Their teachings, Their expressions, Their parables and Their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things. For example, there is the subject of Christ’s coming from heaven: it is clearly stated in many places in the Gospel that the Son of man came from heaven, He is in heaven, and He will go to heaven. So in chapter 6, verse 38, of the Gospel of John it is written: “For I came down from heaven”; and also in verse 42 we find: “And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” Also in John, chapter 3, verse 13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
Observe that it is said, “The Son of man is in heaven,” while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact. The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom. And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact. In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical; it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.
Beside these explanations, it has been established and proved by science that the visible heaven is a limitless area, void and empty, where innumerable stars and planets revolve.
Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.
Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the
truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 103-105
 
Last edited:

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
There is so little established by the above it is hard to find anything to evaluate. Words do not save they only point the way to salvation. If words saved then how does the pigmy in the bush get saved who does no have a Bible. Did Jesus say or hint at any of what you have said when Nicodemus asked how to enter the kingdom? No offense intended but what you said sounds like what a hippy in central park would have said in the 60's. Jesus has the power to save but what you gave sounds to me like empty rhetoric. There is no claim with enough clarity or foundation to debate with. Jesus is not a faith he is a person, but the faith he inspired is simply a new covenant of the Biblical narrative. He was predicted hundreds of times in the OT and existed before the OT. Nothing new about that or him.

You are ignoring the very fundamental teachings of the Religion you claim you believe:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

The Word of God has the power to do anything, including saving Mankind.



The religion of God is not one to Bahaullah. It is a thousand mutually exclusive versions all jammed together into an inert single conglomerate. I have never seen the word fruitage used before, I guess that is something. Jesus is not the author or mere words he is alive and has the miraculous power to save and billions will testify being born again by that power. The word simply points the way. Or are you making some "Logos" point? I am having a hard time simply knowing what you are claiming is.

Read it again, which part of it you don't understand:

"the religion of God is one, and it is the educator of humankind, but still, it needs must be made new. When thou dost plant a tree, its height increaseth day by day. It putteth forth blossoms and leaves and luscious fruits. But after a long time, it doth grow old, yielding no fruitage any more. Then doth the Husbandman of Truth take up the seed from that same tree, and plant it in a pure soil; and lo, there standeth the first tree, even as it was before. "

It means, The faith that Christ brought, although it was a Good Tree, and gave its Fruits in its own time, but as it got old, it cannot give fruits anymore. Therefore God sent Baha'u'llah to renew His Tree again. I hope its now clear...(read the paragraph again, you will understand)
 
Last edited:

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
No, this is what it said: Bahaullah never radiated with the glory of God and his voice was not the voice of rushing waters. This prophecy also occurs while the Temple in Jerusalem is standing. Not the case in Bahaullah's time.

Simply wrong. You are ignoring the calculation of the year for the Promised One:
This how Abdulbaha explains it

"In the eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel, verse thirteen, it is said: “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?” Then he answered (v. 14): “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”; (v. 17) “But he said unto me ... at the time of the end shall be the vision.” That is to say, how long will this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation last? meaning, when will be the dawn of the Manifestation? Then he answered, “Two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Briefly, the purport of this passage is that he appoints two thousand three hundred years, for in the text of the Bible each day is a year. Then from the date of the issuing of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the manifestation of the Báb there are 1844 years. When you add 456 years to this number it makes 2300 years. That is to say, the fulfillment of the vision of Daniel took place in the year A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the Báb’s manifestation according to the actual text of the Book of Daniel.

Consider how clearly he determines the year of manifestation; there could be no clearer prophecy for a manifestation than this.
In Matthew, chapter 24, verse 3, Christ clearly says that what Daniel meant by this prophecy was the date of the manifestation, and this is the verse: “As He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?” One of the explanations He gave them in reply was this (v. 15): “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).” In this answer He referred them to the eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel, saying that everyone who reads it will understand that it is this time that is spoken of. Consider how clearly the manifestation of the Báb is spoken of in the Old Testament and in the Gospel.
To conclude, let us now explain the date of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh from the Bible. The date of Bahá’u’lláh is calculated according to lunar years from the mission and the Hejira of Muḥammad; for in the religion of Muḥammad the lunar year is in use, as also it is the lunar year which is employed concerning all commands of worship.
In Daniel, chapter 12, verse 6, it is said: “And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by Him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and that when He shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.”*
As I have already explained the signification of one day, it is not necessary to explain it further; but we will say briefly that each day of the Father counts as a year, and in each year there are twelve months. Thus three years and a half make forty-two months, and forty-two months are twelve hundred and sixty days. The Báb, the precursor of Bahá’u’lláh, appeared in the year 1260 from the Hejira of Muḥammad, by the reckoning of Islám.
Afterward, in verse 11, it is said: “And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolation be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”†
The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muḥammad in the country of Ḥijáz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muḥammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadíjah and Ibn Nawfal.‡ After three years it was announced. And Bahá’u’lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muḥammad, caused His manifestation to be known.§

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 36-44



Anyone could write that (even: I could). The issue is the evidence it is true. That prophecy is sure not among that evidence.

Again, you are just claiming. Instead of Claiming show another Person who wrote such a thing, and at the same time fulfilled ALL Prophecies.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
You should read what Abdulbaha says about Resurrection of Jesus:


When they asked Abdulbaha:

Question.—What is the meaning of Christ’s resurrection after three days?

Abdulbaha replied:

Answer.—The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All Their states, Their conditions, Their acts, the things They have established, Their teachings, Their expressions, Their parables and Their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things. For example, there is the subject of Christ’s coming from heaven: it is clearly stated in many places in the Gospel that the Son of man came from heaven, He is in heaven, and He will go to heaven. So in chapter 6, verse 38, of the Gospel of John it is written: “For I came down from heaven”; and also in verse 42 we find: “And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” Also in John, chapter 3, verse 13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
Observe that it is said, “The Son of man is in heaven,” while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact. The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom. And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact. In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical; it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.
Beside these explanations, it has been established and proved by science that the visible heaven is a limitless area, void and empty, where innumerable stars and planets revolve.
Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.
Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the
truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 103-105
So you have here an account of a man that existed approx. 1900 years after the events. I have the accounts of four men who existed at the time of the events. They include words of men who were there, words of the man in question, not to mention the tying together of OT predictions and narratives. I also have the words of the early Church fathers. Men who existed long long before the son of Bahaullah, who were debating these issues in councils of thousands. Theologians by the thousands and scholars from schools by the hundreds the large majority of which would refute what Abdulbaha has said. Plus another few billions laymen Christians as well. Forget for the second who is right. On what basis could the ignorant inquirer resolve who is more likely to be right? Why are these words any more meaningful than David Careshe's or Buddha's or any of the others who have come along?

1. Contemporary sources are on the side of what I claim including what appears to be statements that look like they were crafted for the sole purpose of refuting what you have claimed here.
2. Earliest sources are on my side of the issue.
3. Weight of scholarship is on my side of the issue.
4. Earliest non eyewitness testimony is on my side.
5. Early church tradition is on my side.

Basically in every category by which claims like what is in the Gospels are determined are all on my side. Being that is perfectly true or at the very least true in general in what way can the words you posted be considered persuasive. If Christ did not rise bodily as I have shown many times in some of the most specific verses and as Paul went out of his way to say the entire religion falls apart. I want to point out something else. This statement is not accurate:
Beside these explanations, it has been established and proved by science that the visible heaven is a limitless area, void and empty, where innumerable stars and planets revolve.
The visible heavens even to a telescope are finite. It is called an event horizon in cosmology. The visible heavens in Biblical times consisted of about 3000 known visible bodies yet the Bible says that stars (not visible stars) are extremely numerous even though they could not be seen nor ever would be. So the Bible 3000 years knew what you state and stated it more accurately for several reasons.

1. Cosmology suggests that space is not infinite.
2. At no time will even most stars be visible to even telescopes. There is a boundary where things can't be viewed because of the speed of light and the age of the universe.
3. What you claimed was claimed more accurately long before your guy claimed it.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Here is a Book to answer your question:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 1-2



I cannot do the work for you. What I can do, is give you the info.
Then give info, not links. It would have required less letters to answer the question than the link contains. I am not going to wade through pages of data to find very brief facts.
The page at the link you gave did not say where those originals were. It just said they do exist and that what they said can be accessed in several ways.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Simply wrong. You are ignoring the calculation of the year for the Promised One:
This how Abdulbaha explains it

"In the eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel, verse thirteen, it is said: “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?” Then he answered (v. 14): “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”; (v. 17) “But he said unto me ... at the time of the end shall be the vision.” That is to say, how long will this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation last? meaning, when will be the dawn of the Manifestation? Then he answered, “Two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Briefly, the purport of this passage is that he appoints two thousand three hundred years, for in the text of the Bible each day is a year. Then from the date of the issuing of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the manifestation of the Báb there are 1844 years. When you add 456 years to this number it makes 2300 years. That is to say, the fulfillment of the vision of Daniel took place in the year A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the Báb’s manifestation according to the actual text of the Book of Daniel.

Consider how clearly he determines the year of manifestation; there could be no clearer prophecy for a manifestation than this.
In Matthew, chapter 24, verse 3, Christ clearly says that what Daniel meant by this prophecy was the date of the manifestation, and this is the verse: “As He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?” One of the explanations He gave them in reply was this (v. 15): “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).” In this answer He referred them to the eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel, saying that everyone who reads it will understand that it is this time that is spoken of. Consider how clearly the manifestation of the Báb is spoken of in the Old Testament and in the Gospel.
To conclude, let us now explain the date of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh from the Bible. The date of Bahá’u’lláh is calculated according to lunar years from the mission and the Hejira of Muḥammad; for in the religion of Muḥammad the lunar year is in use, as also it is the lunar year which is employed concerning all commands of worship.
In Daniel, chapter 12, verse 6, it is said: “And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by Him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and that when He shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.”*
As I have already explained the signification of one day, it is not necessary to explain it further; but we will say briefly that each day of the Father counts as a year, and in each year there are twelve months. Thus three years and a half make forty-two months, and forty-two months are twelve hundred and sixty days. The Báb, the precursor of Bahá’u’lláh, appeared in the year 1260 from the Hejira of Muḥammad, by the reckoning of Islám.
Afterward, in verse 11, it is said: “And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolation be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”†
The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muḥammad in the country of Ḥijáz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muḥammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadíjah and Ibn Nawfal.‡ After three years it was announced. And Bahá’u’lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muḥammad, caused His manifestation to be known.§

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 36-44
You will not give the few letters needed to indicate where the original writings were but gave this much to make an argument that can't be made? This is the entire prophecy you gave:
<H3>Ezekiel 43:2

King James Version (KJV)
</H3>2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.
There are no date calculations of any kind given in the verse you suggested. The only dates associated with this are in the previous verse:

New International Version (©2011)
Then the man brought me to the gate facing east,


http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3397102
That gate ceased to exist thousands of years before Bahaullah ever existed.




Again, you are just claiming. Instead of Claiming show another Person who wrote such a thing, and at the same time fulfilled ALL Prophecies.
I do not know what this means. I do not even have a burden for anything like this. Bahaullah does not fulfill any prophecy that a better person has not existed for. No one on the face of the Earth may know who fulfilled this prophecy (not true but even if true) and that would not help Bahaullah in the slightest. I will post again (and it will be futile again) the most respected commentary in history (a commentary more read than anything Bahaullah wrote about anything). Plenty more at the link and zero agree with Baha'i.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
43:1-27 After Ezekiel had surveyed the temple of God, he had a vision of the glory of God. When Christ crucified, and the things freely given to us of God, through Him, are shown to us by the Holy Ghost, they make us ashamed for our sins. This frame of mind prepares us for fuller discoveries of the mysteries of redeeming love; and the whole of the Scriptures should be opened and applied, that men may see their sins, and repent of them. We are not now to offer any atoning sacrifices, for by one offering Christ has perfected for ever those that are sanctified, Heb 10:14; but the sprinkling of his blood is needful in all our approaches to God the Father. Our best services can be accepted only as sprinkled with the blood which cleanses from all sin.

I asked where Bahaullah was predicted in the Bible. The best you could do was a mistranslation of a single verse about the Lord. Where did you get this promised one stuff anyway? Those terms are English and do not appear in that verse in any language. Here is another version of that verse: New Living Translation (©2007)
Suddenly, the glory of the God of Israel appeared from the east. The sound of his coming was like the roar of rushing waters, and the whole landscape shone with his glory. "Glory of God" appears in most of the 20 most prominent versions of that verse and Bahaullah in none. BTW how did Daniel suddenly get into this and how is your interpretation of it proof the interpretation of Ezekiel I gave is wrong? I will ask again, which verse (s) tell specifically of Bahaullah's arrival? No labels or vague terms, (the Bible was very specific about prophet names or exhaustive details in most cases) especially for one anything what you claim.
 
Last edited:
Top