If Jesus died for our sins....

[ryanam]

Hi All,

Genuine question here.

I want to ask about a term which I hear a lot by religious people: Jesus died for our sins (or similar).

This gives the impression that mankind should feel lucky that he did die for our sins. Fine... no debate there.

My question is what would have happened if he HADN'T died for our sins?

Now, I've lived a decent life so far. I pride myself on being a moral person. Unfortunately, I'll be going to hell though. Again... fine. People who believe that, believe it.

If I have a great life and die at 80, and then go to hell what would have been the disadvantage of him not dying for my sins?

Maybe I've got all this twisted up.

Thanks!

 

[Muffled]

Hi All,

Genuine question here.

I want to ask about a term which I hear a lot by religious people: Jesus died for our sins (or similar).

This gives the impression that mankind should feel lucky that he did die for our sins. Fine... no debate there.

My question is what would have happened if he HADN'T died for our sins?

Now, I've lived a decent life so far. I pride myself on being a moral person. Unfortunately, I'll be going to hell though. Again... fine. People who believe that, believe it.

If I have a great life and die at 80, and then go to hell what would have been the disadvantage of him not dying for my sins?

Maybe I've got all this twisted up.

Thanks!

I suppose it makes no difference to you. You decide where you want to go by the choices you make.

PS welcome to RF. I hope you enjoy learning and debating.

 

[ryanam]

You're right... it makes no difference to me. I'm happily living my life for what it is instead of for what I'm told will happen.

I guess that's just another question about religion which has no actual answer.

 

[Muffled]

You're right... it makes no difference to me. I'm happily living my life for what it is instead of for what I'm told will happen.

I guess that's just another question about religion which has no actual answer.

Those are two different things. Being happy with what is does not guarantee that you will be happy with what will be. For the sake of argument let us suppose that you end up in fire for 12,000 years with no physical life. Does that make you happy?

There is an answer; I just didn't think it pertained. Without Jesus dying for sins people would still have to rely on the law to be good as many who ignore the crucifixion do today.

 

[ryanam]

Those are two different things. Being happy with what is does not guarantee that you will be happy with what will be. For the sake of argument let us suppose that you end up in fire for 12,000 years with no physical life. Does that make you happy?

There is an answer; I just didn't think it pertained. Without Jesus dying for sins people would still have to rely on the law to be good as many who ignore the crucifixion do today.

With no physical form (as you say) and nothing for this fire to react with or to burn, I don't think it would matter.

I don't rely on Jesus or the law to be a good person. I rely on my own conscience, experiences and upbringing.

Do you understand the notion of not NEEDING anything to lead a good life? Not needing to be told how to act or how to be a good person?

 

[ryanam]

I guess the greatest tragedy is knowing people act this way because of what they believe will happen when they die.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with achieving as much as possible in life even if it means committing sin... we KNOW we're having a good life. We don't KNOW what happens when we die.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Before Jesus lived people and many powerful leaders were committing atrocities and after Jesus lived there was no change. In fact many those atrocities escalated if anything. So what Jesus did through “dying for our sins” was a pretty pointless exercise, because what has it really achieved in history?

 

[waitasec]

I guess the greatest tragedy is knowing people act this way because of what they believe will happen when they die.

a selfish motivation no less...





ps
welcome to the forum

 

[horizon_mj1]

Hi All,

Genuine question here.

I want to ask about a term which I hear a lot by religious people: Jesus died for our sins (or similar).

Genuine misconception here; no He did not die for our sins, He died so we could be forgiven for our sins.

This gives the impression that mankind should feel lucky that he did die for our sins. Fine... no debate there.

My question is what would have happened if he HADN'T died for our sins?

We as imperfect beings would not have the ability to accomplish a life with Divinity or ever be given the abilities to imagine True Omnipotence or Eternity.

Now, I've lived a decent life so far. I pride myself on being a moral person. Unfortunately, I'll be going to hell though. Again... fine. People who believe that, believe it.

No one (I honestly do not give a rat's a@@ who you are) you do not have the right to judge what you did not create

If I have a great life and die at 80, and then go to hell what would have been the disadvantage of him not dying for my sins?

Maybe I've got all this twisted up.

Thanks!

Being it is not that He died for your sins, but allowed for you to ask for your own forgiveness, I would say there is a "disadvantage" to Him. However if there is no remorse within your being to allow yourself to ask for forgiveness, I would say this could be a "disadvantage" to you:angel2:

 

[horizon_mj1]

I guess the greatest tragedy is knowing people act this way because of what they believe will happen when they die.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with achieving as much as possible in life even if it means committing sin... we KNOW we're having a good life. We don't KNOW what happens when we die.

You are very wrong my friend; some do KNOW what happens when we die; not everyone has a chance to die and return to life though however. You should not be so quick to assume that just because you do not KNOW that no one else does

 

[ryanam]

*****

 

[ryanam]

You are very wrong my friend; some do KNOW what happens when we die; not everyone has a chance to die and return to life though however. You should not be so quick to assume that just because you do not KNOW that no one else does

Absolute conjecture.

How can anyone know what happens when you die? They're all still alive aren't they?

If anyone tells you that they KNOW what happens when they die, they're lying. The reason I know this? Because I don't know what happens when you die and nobody else has mental abilities beyond mine.

 

[Silver]

What about the Near Death Experience? Apparently these people are technically dead and have an experience.....until brought back to life.

 

[ryanam]

Genuine misconception here; no He did not die for our sins, He died so we could be forgiven for our sins.

We as imperfect beings would not have the ability to accomplish a life with Divinity or ever be given the abilities to imagine True Omnipotence or Eternity.

No one (I honestly do not give a rat's a@@ who you are) you do not have the right to judge what you did not create

Being it is not that He died for your sins, but allowed for you to ask for your own forgiveness, I would say there is a "disadvantage" to Him. However if there is no remorse within your being to allow yourself to ask for forgiveness, I would say this could be a "disadvantage" to you:angel2:

- Can you explain what a life of divinity means? Same applies to the ability to imagine eternity?

- I have the right to judge whatever I feel needs judging. Again, your assumption that I'm judging what I didn't create (whatever that is) means nothing to me.

- I'm not asking anyone for forgiveness and I have nothing to feel remorseful about. I've never committed a crime and like I said, I lead a good, worthwhile life. By worthwhile, I refer to a job that genuinely helps people.

It sounds as though you provide information based on what people have told you and what you have read and that information has no bearing on real life or the things that are really important.

 

[ryanam]

What about the Near Death Experience? Apparently these people are technically dead and have an experience.....until brought back to life.

That depends on what you refer to as 'dead'. If the person is brain dead and has no consciousness, no amount of revival will bring that person back into consciousness.

At best, their heart may pump blood round their body but their brain will remain non-functional.

People who have had 'near death experiences' are unlikely to be anywhere near that stage.

I would actually put it down to the mechanics of the brain... a self defense mechanism of sorts.

 

[Acim]

Absolute conjecture.

I don't know what happens when you die and nobody else has mental abilities beyond mine.

Whistling while I work.

 

[PeaceLoveJoy]

What if when we die we just all go to heaven.

 

[ryanam]

Whistling while I work.

You're suggesting that people have the ability to view the afterlife?

 

[Acim]

Can you explain what a life of divinity means?

Yes.

Same applies to the ability to imagine eternity?

And yes.

I have the right to judge whatever I feel needs judging. Again, your assumption that I'm judging what I didn't create (whatever that is) means nothing to me.

Did you knowingly create "me?" If no, or akin to 'not sure,' then your judgment might not work like you think. How I understand divinity (aka Reason) is you are only judging yourself. Kinda bizarre, if you think about it the perspective of separation. What? I'm not really judging myself. That's horsepucky.

I'm not asking anyone for forgiveness and I have nothing to feel remorseful about.

I can still recall when I believed in this very shallow version of forgiveness. It's kinda cute really.

 

[Acim]

You're suggesting that people have the ability to view the afterlife?

Yes, but I would take the "after" out of that word to make (honest) sense of what is being stated.